|
Groovelord Neato posted:you can respond to trump but you have to know how to do it. i think people forget what trump's immediate response to warren's test (which proved him "right") was. he said "i never said that." even when he came out on top he still denied making the claim. This is the biggest problem with dealing with Trump. He is going to have a much easier time campaigning as long as the media as a whole refuses to call him out on his bullshit.
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 15:55 |
|
|
1glitch0 posted:Of all the bigoted nonsense from the right this stuff baffles me the most. I guess it's my bias against the military, but why fighting so hard to keep gay and transgendered people out of being meat sacks for their imperialistic adventures just seems like a waste of time even if you're a bigot. I'm also not clear why a transgendered person would ever want to even join the military of this lovely country that hates them. But I'm not sure why anyone would join the military, so what do I know. The entire issue is so bizarre to me. While the military is historically a pretty conservative institution, there is a tendency that it is progressive on a lot of social issues. Most of that comes from the executive branch having a lot of authority to unilaterally declare the military to do some poo poo, and the military having a constant demand more more meat sacks that. So, the army was enlisting black soldiers during the civil war. The military was desegrated shortly after WW2 and before Brown v. Board of Education. DADT and it's repeal preceded wider gay rights in the United States as a whole. The regressive movement wants to keep transgendered people out of the military, because once open acceptance of transgendered people in the military is normalized, it will be impossible to continue treating transgendered people like poo poo in the nation at large.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:01
|
|
|
FactsAreUseless posted:People should be a lot angrier about the ways in which the military preys on poor young men and women. Growing up in Idaho the high school was constantly host to various military recruiters. A friend of mine got rejected because of his ADHD and I'm so glad he dodged that bullet. I think it's only going to get worse as it becomes harder for the military to recruit people as well. Blaming the kids who sign up is like blaming people who get sucked into payday loan debt. Yes, they made a bad choice, but it was a bad choice made out of ignorance and desperation. I think saying joining the military being a mistake is a pretty broad brushstroke. If you're referring to the top level point of military industrialization being bad and joining keeps that going than okay, but believe it or not a lot of people come out way better than they go in. Of course an actual jobs program or living wages or universal healthcare would all be better options. That being said a lot of it is gross, especially when you see senators and congressman recoil at the thought of putting their kids in the military, or seeing privileged people join explicitly to get the checkmark, but they join an officer's corp in the reserves or guard, and do a deployment filing paperwork. Simplex posted:The regressive movement wants to keep transgendered people out of the military, because once open acceptance of transgendered people in the military is normalized, it will be impossible to continue treating transgendered people like poo poo in the nation at large. Conservatives wont care and will still treat transgendered people terribly. They want them out for the same reason they didnt want women, minorities, and gay people in. They're otherized and wanted to keep their good ole boys club. Every time another minority is included its change for them, which is uncomfortable. PneumonicBook fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Apr 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:02
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:ehhh it's not quite the same because it's kinda dumb that politicians can't call people what they are. hillary was even too kind - she said it was only half. CuddleCryptid posted:To be fair I don't think we collectively realized how far gone the right wing was at the "deplorables" time. We knew that some people were basically worshipping Trump as a messiah, but we didn't know how commonplace that was. I will agree on both those points, but at the same time I remember exactly my reaction when I heard her say it: "why would you say that?" There was nothing to gain politically or otherwise and thinking back on it was the point where I began to get the gut feeling she could lose. I cannot help but think more than a few people that were going to hate-vote for Hillary changed their minds at that point. Dems just aren't very good at messaging, because it is more difficult when you aren't just throwing red meat at raving hyenas.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:02
|
|
|
Gorson posted:I will agree on both those points, but at the same time I remember exactly my reaction when I heard her say it: "why would you say that?" There was nothing to gain politically or otherwise and thinking back on it was the point where I began to get the gut feeling she could lose. I cannot help but think more than a few people that were going to hate-vote for Hillary changed their minds at that point. Dems just aren't very good at messaging, because it is more difficult when you aren't just throwing red meat at raving hyenas. This was 100% my reaction. It can be 100% true, and we all know now, as we knew then, that it was a 100% true statement. BUT YOU DON'T SAY IT IN A SPEECH! Hate motivates. The minute she said it, a bunch a midwestern Obama voting albeit somewhat racist centrist voters went "Oh yeah?? Well I'll show her!" and here we are. EDIT Another one she did was going to coal country and telling the audience she was going to put them out of work and not immediately pivoting to the better jobs they'd be trained for instead or any transition assistance or anything. Just galactically stupid politically.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:07
|
|
|
VH4Ever posted:Yeah see THIS is the poo poo that needs to be exposed more. Blame poor folks all you like but THIS is the horrendous manipulation folks encounter from these fucks. Of course desperate people will roll the dice. They often have few good choices. I thought I read somewhere (probably years ago in this thread) that they're allowed to lie all they want to get people to sign up. Or maybe I'm conflating that with cops and confessions. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:08
|
|
|
Zarin posted:I thought I read somewhere (probably years ago in this thread) that they're allowed to lie all they want to get people to sign up. I'm sure they can. I'll just go ahead and go out on a limb and say that without checking into it and trust that later evidence will prove me right.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:09
|
|
|
Gorson posted:Dems just aren't very good at messaging, because it is more difficult when you aren't just throwing red meat at raving hyenas.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:09
|
|
|
Gorson posted:Warren's DNA test was a massive political mistake that was obvious to us here because it was very internet-y in its nature; you do not allow a troll to bait you into an argument, you are just playing into their hand. To me it was on the level of Hillary's "Deplorables" comment. Who is coaching these people? Like Dukakis in the tank or John Kerry's Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? You have to respond to these things because they have a way of growing and becoming innuendo that grows. She made the right call by tying to diffuse it, ignoring it was not really an option.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:10
|
|
|
VH4Ever posted:This was 100% my reaction. It can be 100% true, and we all know now, as we knew then, that it was a 100% true statement. BUT YOU DON'T SAY IT IN A SPEECH! Hate motivates. The minute she said it, a bunch a midwestern Obama voting albeit somewhat racist centrist voters went "Oh yeah?? Well I'll show her!" and here we are. That's because she critically missed how it would be reported. She was attempting to say "half of them are redeemable, they aren't all deplorables" The emphasis of her point was that while Trump had a bunch of awful people in his camp, they weren't all awful. But her instincts were radically, incredibly wrong on how it would be reported - it got reported as "Hillary calls Trump voters 'Deplorable' "
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:10
|
|
|
Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:California says gently caress off to Trump LOL at people that tell me I'm crazy for making California my forever home.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:10
|
|
|
Prester Jane posted:Leftists with this attitude are the absolute worst allies and are actively detrimental to the cause. You have been conditioned to shut down empathy for deprived people who made a choice you disagree with. I like your posting and I think it's enlightening, but you're being very self-righteous for no reason. I've had friends who have gone into the military and I've heard what they say when they come back. I know the reasons they went. And yes, it was because of no other option. I get that. I've listened, so don't loving talk me like I'm a child. All I'm saying is it's a complicated issue and I don't think I agree with joining even if a person's situation sucks. I think it's even a less good idea if the organization you want to join is trying to actively screw you. It's a disagreement. It doesn't mean I'm "the absolute worst ally".
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:10
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:Like Dukakis in the tank or John Kerry's Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? You have to respond to these things because they have a way of growing and becoming innuendo that grows. She made the right call by tying to diffuse it, ignoring it was not really an option. but the DNA test proved her wrong. and even if it didn't she hadn't lived as a native she lived as a white person her whole life. you can definitely ignore it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:12
|
|
|
theflyingorc posted:That's because she critically missed how it would be reported. She was attempting to say "half of them are redeemable, they aren't all deplorables" And you'd think if, I dunno, LITERALLY ANYONE INVOLVED IN POLITICS OVER THE LAST THIRTY YEARS should understand how the right was going to cover their every word, statement, and action, it would be her. And yet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:13
|
|
|
McMagic nooooo....  https://twitter.com/NickKristof/status/1116778545160839168
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:14
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:Like Dukakis in the tank or John Kerry's Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? You have to respond to these things because they have a way of growing and becoming innuendo that grows. She made the right call by tying to diffuse it, ignoring it was not really an option. I think a dust up about it 2 years before any votes, where the only people bringing it up still are racists, is about as well as she could handle it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:14
|
|
|
1glitch0 posted:Of all the bigoted nonsense from the right this stuff baffles me the most. I guess it's my bias against the military, but why fighting so hard to keep gay and transgendered people out of being meat sacks for their imperialistic adventures just seems like a waste of time even if you're a bigot. I'm also not clear why a transgendered person would ever want to even join the military of this lovely country that hates them. But I'm not sure why anyone would join the military, so what do I know. The entire issue is so bizarre to me. Yo, transgender person whose also a veteran here. I wouldn't be able to afford my transition medications without my veterans benefits.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:15
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:Like Dukakis in the tank or John Kerry's Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? You have to respond to these things because they have a way of growing and becoming innuendo that grows. She made the right call by tying to diffuse it, ignoring it was not really an option. Those two aren't the same. Dukakis...well, how's he going to fight looking like an rear end in a top hat in a tank? The Swiftboat veterans for Truth sure. Kerry should have come out firing against that complete hatchet job. But let us not forget Kerry had a certain embarrassing photo of his own.... 
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:15
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:but the DNA test proved her wrong. and even if it didn't she hadn't lived as a native she lived as a white person her whole life. you can definitely ignore it. You can't and we can list all the dumb and stupid things that every politician tried to ignore that became bigger things in the end. The reason the next story that came out about her bar card saying she was native American landed like a lead balloon is because the question has been asked and answered. It got not traction because she addressed it. We also have to separate that we as liberals/socialists/whatever view her responses as unsophisticated (for lack of a better term?) because she is claiming something that we see as appropriation. Most people won't get that far.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:15
|
|
|
Pay your taxes https://twitter.com/atorwulfu/statu...genumber%3D1227
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:16
|
|
|
FizFashizzle posted:Those two aren't the same. The better Dukakis example is Willie Horton then. he choose to ignore it and it became a bigger issue as time went on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:17
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:You can't and we can list all the dumb and stupid things that every politician tried to ignore that became bigger things in the end. The reason the next story that came out about her bar card saying she was native American landed like a lead balloon is because the question has been asked and answered. It got not traction because she addressed it. We also have to separate that we as liberals/socialists/whatever view her responses as unsophisticated (for lack of a better term?) because she is claiming something that we see as appropriation. Most people won't get that far. he's gonna keep calling her pocahontas whenever she comes up. it didn't do anything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:18
|
|
|
FactsAreUseless posted:People came away with a lot of the wrong conclusions about 2016, that spite voting and voting against is a winning strategy. Clinton lost in large part because our electoral system is broken and rigged in favor of rural whites, but she also lost because she was tricked into running against Trump, not running for Clinton. HRC's staff worked their asses off to make sure she ran against Trump on an "I am not Trump" platform. She wasn't tricked into making bad decisions... she just made bad decisions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:18
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:Like Dukakis in the tank or John Kerry's Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? You have to respond to these things because they have a way of growing and becoming innuendo that grows. She made the right call by tying to diffuse it, ignoring it was not really an option. She blindsided the most obvious impacted group instead of working with them to neuter the line of attack among people who actually care. Racists excited to keep giggling about "Fauxcahontas" or whatever were already a lost cause, but screwups like this also have a cost through depressing enthusiasm and cutting off your best options for washing your hands of an issue. Like, you get that native activists actually have good reason to doubt that she is sensitive to their concerns because of how she handled this, right? And that there's a meaningful difference between the impact of bad faith concern trolling and the impact of criticism from the actual Cherokee Nation? The latter is gonna be gleefully seized upon as ammo by the former. eviltastic fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Apr 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:19
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:he's gonna keep calling her pocahontas whenever she comes up. it didn't do anything. It's not him you care about, its the dumb media people who will constantly bring it up doing the work for him. Pres. Obama had a literal team of people whose job it was to respond to dumb memes and hatchet jobs against him in a 24 news period because they knew enough not to trust the media to cover anything correctly because these dumb things have a way of spiraling out of control.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:20
|
|
|
yeah and those people are the dummies behind pod save america.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:21
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:he's gonna keep calling her pocahontas whenever she comes up. it didn't do anything. Sure, and he was just gonna keep saying "but her e-mails" and it was largely agreed that she messed up by not addressing that earlier than she did The point isn't to stop Trump from saying it, the point is to remove his ability to get the crowd to care when he does. Being completely certain that responding is worse that not responding seems over-the-top. There's dozens of examples where doing one or the other sunk a candidate, there isn't a hard and fast rule
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:22
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:yeah and those people are the dummies behind pod save america. That...doesn't refute anything I just posted?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:22
|
|
|
1glitch0 posted:I like your posting and I think it's enlightening, but you're being very self-righteous for no reason. I've had friends who have gone into the military and I've heard what they say when they come back. I know the reasons they went. And yes, it was because of no other option. I get that. I've listened, so don't loving talk me like I'm a child. All I'm saying is it's a complicated issue and I don't think I agree with joining even if a person's situation sucks. I think it's even a less good idea if the organization you want to join is trying to actively screw you. It's a disagreement. It doesn't mean I'm "the absolute worst ally". Dude, go gently caress yourself seriously I'd be loving dead if I hadn't enlisted, despite it still loving me up. How about you stop paying your loving taxes which pay for that evil MIC? You seriously would rather folks starve to death on the street. Seriously, go gently caress yourself, you privileged piece of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:23
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:That...doesn't refute anything I just posted? the things they did were worthless.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:26
|
|
|
1glitch0 posted:I've had friends who have gone into the military and I've heard what they say when they come back. Ah yes, the harrowing stories of Kuwaiti shopping malls.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:32
|
|
|
Xombie posted:Ah yes, the harrowing stories of Kuwaiti shopping malls. You can't be loving serious with this take.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:33
|
|
|
Fallom posted:You can't be loving serious with this take. Here you go: Xombie posted:Statistically almost no one in the US military is deployed to an active war zone. Only 210,000 of 1,358,193 active military employees are even considered "deployed" at all right now. There are more US military members stationed in Alaska than Afghanistan. 1glitch0 is trying to claim that people who join the military are evil because they're part of the US MASS MURDER MACHINE when really nearly everyone in the US military never ever sees combat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:35
|
|
|
1glitch0 posted:I like your posting and I think it's enlightening, but you're being very self-righteous for no reason. I've had friends who have gone into the military and I've heard what they say when they come back. I know the reasons they went. And yes, it was because of no other option. I get that. I've listened, so don't loving talk me like I'm a child. All I'm saying is it's a complicated issue and I don't think I agree with joining even if a person's situation sucks. I think it's even a less good idea if the organization you want to join is trying to actively screw you. It's a disagreement. It doesn't mean I'm "the absolute worst ally". No, I'm just telling you the truth. This is what self righteousness looks like: 1glitch0 posted:No, they just chose to work for pro-imperialist war mongering baby killers because it made their life better. That's a choice. This is exactly why I called you a bad ally 1glitch0 advised you to shut up about this topic until you spent more time listening to people who had to face the Kobayashi Nary whilst slowly starving to death. Your arrogant ignorance is deeply offensive to those who have lived this experience. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Apr 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:36
|
|
|
https://mobile.twitter.com/atrupar/status/1116784844925800448 https://mobile.twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/1116781021041758208
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:36
|
|
|
Countdown til Trump announces new plan to resettle immigrants in Peurto Rico
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:36
|
|
|
Xombie posted:Here you go: I don't care what you're slap fighting about, just don't approach stories of military trauma as if they're vanishingly unlikely. Deployments are not distributed evenly. One career field may deploy each member once in a decade, others deploy their members every six months. At any given moment a fraction of the workforce is deployed but often those deployments are rotated throughout every member in the unit. People who are not deployed but assist combat operations or law enforcement also get their own trauma.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:38
|
|
|
Fallom posted:I don't care what you're slap fighting about Yes it's very clear you are trying to change what we are talking about or construct an elaborate straw man to shoehorn your pet subject into it. quote:Deployments are not distributed evenly. One career field may deploy each member once in a decade, others deploy their members every six months. At any given moment a fraction of the workforce is deployed but often those deployments are rotated throughout every member in the unit. There are only 14,000 troops in Afghanistan, our single largest active war zone. There are 1.35 million US military personnel. Please show your work when doing the math of what percentage of currently active US troops will ever be deployed there. quote:People who are not deployed but assist combat operations or law enforcement also get their own trauma. Yes, my buddy who's an MP was deployed to Gitmo. One time they didn't have a boat to rent to take out and sunbathe on leave. They had to use the beach. Truly awful. Xombie fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:40
|
|
|
Xombie posted:Here you go: Yes, all people in the United States should be able to volunteer to serve equally. These are not contradictory.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 15:55 |
|
|
Xombie posted:That's clear because you're talking about something completely irrelevant to what we're talking about. Shoehorn it somewhere else. Your interpretation of the statistic is misinformed and your crack about Kuwaiti shopping malls is reprehensible. gently caress you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2019 20:41
|
|