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Herstory Begins Now posted:People have invested a shocking amount of time into divesting buddhist practice of all compassionate or altruistic aspects and it's really weird because it becomes just deeply self-absorbed. Like even a basic practice of sitting quietly can just be a navel-gazing self-indulgent way of disconnecting from the world when done for the wrong reasons Is it so weird? People don't want to improve themselves, they want validation that they don't have to improve themselves. People don't want to release attachment to the ego, they want to be told that they can keep doing what they're doing. This is why people cling hard to things like "samsara and nirvana are two sides of the same hand" or ideas like "because all actions are empty I can be a yogi and drink alcohol because alcohol and water are the same emptiness!" The idea that we all possess Buddha nature and are all primordially enlightened if we just realize that fact fucks people up because while it is true, you actually have to, you know, realize it. Just academically knowing it isn't the goal. But yeah, that navel gazing with all of the compassion, altruism, and reality removed to turn Buddhism into psycho-theater instead of a religious practice largely seems to serve the interests of people who either don't want to actually have to change in any way, or those who want Buddhism to be an intellectual or academic exercise (and who, by extension, are thus very learned).
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Apr 8, 2019 12:59
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I guess I find it all to be just another typical example of what’s been happening throughout the long history of Buddhism. Which is that people adapt Buddhism to their context and their needs. You see it happen every time it hops cultures both in our time and throughout history. Every branch of Buddhism is rife with idiosyncrasies and adherents vehemently insisting that their culture’s innovations are sound and justified whereas the others are crossing the line. It’s old man yells at clouds/ dog bites man in a religious context.
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Apr 8, 2019 17:20
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Yiggy posted:I guess I find it all to be just another typical example of what’s been happening throughout the long history of Buddhism. Which is that people adapt Buddhism to their context and their needs. You see it happen every time it hops cultures both in our time and throughout history. Every branch of Buddhism is rife with idiosyncrasies and adherents vehemently insisting that their culture’s innovations are sound and justified whereas the others are crossing the line. It’s old man yells at clouds/ dog bites man in a religious context.
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Apr 8, 2019 20:33
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Nessus posted:I think both can be true. There does not seem to be a lot of "lay Buddhism" in America-at-large. American Buddhism is far and away predominately laiety? In particular there is a lot of lay buddhism in the form of people who have expressed some interest, maybe seen a talk or two, watched a couple youtube videos and read a book or three. That's probably the vast majority of people who would identify as Buddhists in the US who are not from historically buddhist cultures. It's kinda easy to get into a bubble where you're surrounded by people who have spent time in monasteries or regular formal practice at a specific place of worship or whatever, but as an absolute percentage of people, they're really quite rare. IMO, cuz I tend to agree that the lay/ordained distinction is questionably useful in its traditional sense, to adapt the word for an American or European use, I'd expand non-laiety to include people who have spent time living in monasteries or on significant retreats, or seriously practiced continually for substantial periods of time, but all of them would traditionally be considered lay. Or am I misunderstanding how you meant that? Paramemetic posted:Is it so weird? People don't want to improve themselves, they want validation that they don't have to improve themselves. People don't want to release attachment to the ego, they want to be told that they can keep doing what they're doing. This is why people cling hard to things like "samsara and nirvana are two sides of the same hand" or ideas like "because all actions are empty I can be a yogi and drink alcohol because alcohol and water are the same emptiness!" Yeah agreed. I guess it seems weird to me in that there are a lot of easier ways for someone to convince themself that they're more enlightened and better than everyone else. Buddhist practice is pretty much categorically going to be humbling and probably quite unpleasant for 99% of people before it ever actually becomes particularly validating. I also have weird views and think that just practicing the precepts diligently (according to one's capacity ideally, but even just the basic precepts) is 90% of a buddhist life, so idk, i have a hard time wrapping my head around all the different ways buddhism seems to appeal to people. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 23:50
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It's kinda easy to get into a bubble where you're surrounded by people who have spent time in monasteries or regular formal practice at a specific place of worship or whatever, but as an absolute percentage of people, they're really quite rare. IMO, cuz I tend to agree that the lay/ordained distinction is questionably useful in its traditional sense, to adapt the word for an American or European use, I'd expand non-laiety to include people who have spent time living in monasteries or on significant retreats, or seriously practiced continually for substantial periods of time, but all of them would traditionally be considered lay. The Western distinction of "lay" versus "ordained" is less about holding vows and more about whether or not one is "professional clergy," or a "full-time practitioner." Especially in the Mahayana or Vajrayana most practitioners will have taken vows like the bodhisattva vows or tantric vows, which are every bit as "real" as monastic vows. Monasticism is "easy mode" for a bodhisattva run, but lay practitioners will often end up with the same vows. But there's a breakdown, as you've said. For example, I left my normal person career and learned another language so I could work for the Dharma and specifically as a monk's attendant. By every account I'm a "professional religious worker" but I am still "lay" in that I haven't been ordained. So I'm doing the hard mode run. But I talked to my Lama to day and made an aspiration to finish the complete cycle of teachings as a layperson in order to demonstrate that it can be done and hopefully inspire others. quote:Yeah agreed. I guess it seems weird to me in that there are a lot of easier ways for someone to convince themself that they're more enlightened and better than everyone else. Buddhist practice is pretty much categorically going to be humbling and probably quite unpleasant for 99% of people before it ever actually becomes particularly validating. I also have weird views and think that just practicing the precepts diligently (according to one's capacity ideally, but even just the basic precepts) is 90% of a buddhist life, so idk, i have a hard time wrapping my head around all the different ways buddhism seems to appeal to people. I guess it scratches an itch? I obviously have gone to much further measures but I don't think that is necessary at all. I think the best way to judge how a religion is practiced is to look at how people on the whole practice it in their own culture. There are particularly devout Catholics, but there are a great many who only go to Mass on the High Holidays, and I think that's more indicative of how Catholics on the whole practice, versus monks, or priests, or nuns, or very devout old people who go to mass every day, right? Similarly, in Ladakh or Tibet, most people have a small shrine and they'll do small daily offerings or observances, but they'll only go to a center or so on on rare occasions for big events or teachings. They'll have a single mantra they were given by a Lama they meet with rarely, mostly to make offerings. They will have a transactional relationship with the monasteries, making offerings in returns for prayers, blessings, rites, and so on. There are of course particularly devout older people who focus on mantras a lot. There are monks and nuns - many of whom never leave monasteries or only go to other monasteries for teachings. There are devout family practitioners (usually the head of household) who will practice household rites and have a slightly closer relationship with the Lama. For the most part, it's exactly what you said: practicing the precepts. And not even all of them! Most Tibetans only take one or two (usually killing or stealing, and sexual misconduct). In the West, the expression tends to be a little different, because most of us are converts, and there are no zealots like a convert, yeah? But you mentioned people who have seen some Dharma talks on YouTube and identify with Buddhism without necessarily having taken formal Refuge or so on as Buddhists or people who would identify as Buddhists and I'd never considered that but I bet it does represent a pretty sizable chunk.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:21
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Or am I misunderstanding how you meant that?
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Apr 9, 2019 00:44
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I didn't use the term very well. I mean more that popular Buddhism is mostly the pop-sci decaffeinated version rather than the real deal. It might be more prominent on the west coast, IDK. For what it's worth, most Buddhist practitioners in the US are of Asian descent and practicing according to their own traditions in the traditional manner. I'd buy that pop-culture Buddhism is as you're describing, or Buddhism as practiced by Western converts, but I'm not really sure it's a majority. It's worth noting that most cultural forms of Buddhist practices will have centers that do services in their languages and don't really advertise. For every Tibetan Buddhist Center with 10 regular Western attendees, there's a Vietnamese temple with 100+ regulars that practice in Vietnamese.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:51
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yeah i'd say at my local bca temple there's like, half asian members, half non-asian, and in berkeley it was like... two-thirds asian and one third non-asian, maybe 3/4 and 1/4 idk i only went the one time and had severe anxiety the entire time. and as you might expect, my local bca temple is a lot more pop culture buddhist than the one in berkeley (tho the one in berkely the priest was also a professor at the bca seminary so that probably helps a bit lmao) like you gotta get asses in the seats somehow, even if you own the building and the land you still gotta pay electricity and priest's living expenses (idk if they have jobs, i'd guess not but i don't actually know). i don't know what i'm saying at this point other than non-pop culture forms of buddhism exist but they are directly proportional to how few converts there are also i get weirdly anxious when i go to temple services, which sucks cause i haven't gone to my local temple since i got my hommyo and like that's a bad look right.
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Apr 9, 2019 01:05
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I didn't use the term very well. I mean more that popular Buddhism is mostly the pop-sci decaffeinated version rather than the real deal. It might be more prominent on the west coast, IDK. the key here is the word "popular", meaning perceived notions among non-participants, becuase, yes, MBSR certainly is not the same as the theravada / mahayana / vajrayana traditions. but in contrast, the lay practice in the us may have a lot to recommend it, though it will oviously depend heavily on the group and the tradition. speaking again from the soto perspective, the lay pracitce here is much more centered on skikantaza, the precepts, etc., and there is plenty of ritual for those who like that sort of thing; as compared to lay practice in japan which (to be glib and reductive) consists of (i) waiting 40-50 years; and (ii) contacting the priest when a funeral becomes necessary. i haven't looked into it, but i suspect there may be a similar dynamic in theravada traditions, where the lay practice in countries of origin may tend to be more centered around supporting monks and hoping for an improved rebirth.
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Apr 9, 2019 02:48
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When I went to a Buddhist center it was pretty much 100% white people. I only remember two people who weren't. Now that I go to a Pentecostal church, on the other hand, it's about 10% Koreans and a good mix for the rest, which is remarkable because Koreans are like 0,05% of the population in my country. I know of two "ethnic" Buddhist centers, one Thai and one Kalmyk, but I haven't been to either and from what I hear they're struggling to keep members. On the other hand, "ethnic" Christian churches seem to be thriving, every major city seems to at least have a Chinese one. So I guess what I'm saying is, in my European country, Buddhism is practiced a bit as an ethnic religion, but mostly as a diversion for educated white people. At least as far as public centers go.
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Apr 9, 2019 06:38
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pidan posted:When I went to a Buddhist center it was pretty much 100% white people. I only remember two people who weren't. Now that I go to a Pentecostal church, on the other hand, it's about 10% Koreans and a good mix for the rest, which is remarkable because Koreans are like 0,05% of the population in my country. I did visit a Sri Lankan place but I felt very shy about approaching the monks and it is way more inaccessible to me now, anyway.
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Apr 9, 2019 07:45
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man i saw so many monks when i worked at uniqlo and i was like “i have no way to tell you i’m also buddhist but this is kinda neat”
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Apr 9, 2019 09:04
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so sanbō kyōdan and specifically the kapleau lineage in the nordic countries. am i clear to have doubts about its authenticity? of the two options i have in my city this was least obviously a cult (diamond way lol).
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Apr 13, 2019 14:24
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matti posted:so sanbō kyōdan and specifically the kapleau lineage in the nordic countries. am i clear to have doubts about its authenticity? of the two options i have in my city this was least obviously a cult (diamond way lol). i’m not in this lineage, but I do subscribe to roshi kjolhede’s podcast (which is excellent), which led me a while back to the following that may be of some interest to you in connection with that question https://www.rzc.org/about/who-we-are/roshi-and-his-teachers/ personally i wouldn’t be too concerned, especially if you’re just looking for a practice group. what may be of more importance is to bear in mind that the practice is going to have something of the rinzai perspective, so, for example, there may be more use of koans as an object of prolonged concentration, and more focus on the event of kensho, than a soto group would have. all of that may be fine, but if you find it doesn’t work for you, especially if you want to focus on shikantaza, just bear in mind that it’s not the only path within zen
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Apr 13, 2019 17:30
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matti posted:so sanbō kyōdan and specifically the kapleau lineage in the nordic countries. am i clear to have doubts about its authenticity? of the two options i have in my city this was least obviously a cult (diamond way lol). This is one of about two Buddhist organizations near me as well and by near I mean an hour away and also I can't drive. I just got Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen though and have heard it highly recommended by a lot of folks.
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Apr 13, 2019 18:09
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matti posted:so sanbō kyōdan and specifically the kapleau lineage in the nordic countries. am i clear to have doubts about its authenticity? of the two options i have in my city this was least obviously a cult (diamond way lol). I'm actually a student of Roshi Bodhin and the lineage stuff never bothered me because the teaching always feels authentic. It also might be interesting to note that Roshi Kapleau's teacher forbade the translation of the Heart Sutra from Japanese to English and this was a big point of contention between the two (the RZC currently uses an English translation). Take from that what you will. I'll also add that Roshi Bodhin has been verified by several other teachers with "authentic" lineages, a couple from Soto schools that he has declined. Also note, I'm obviously biased. As for practice, the Harada-Yasutani line touts itself as a blend of both the Rinzai and Soto schools and uses both koans and shikantaza (just sitting) in practice. There is acknowledgment that yes, we already are this Buddha nature and nothing can change that, but without realization and actualization of this, it's all just words. The typical experience seems to be breath practice initially to calm/focus the mind, followed by koan practice to aid in realization, followed by shikantaza as one's practice matures. This is all up to the teacher's discretion, of course, but this seems to be the common way of things. Also, sitting is done facing a wall. Another things of note that differs from a Soto experience is the use of the stick, or kyosaku. It's used during sitting rounds as a way of encouraging your practice. It also helps keep you awake when you're on hour 10 of sitting during the middle of a 7 day sesshin and it's juuust warm enough in the zendo to be cozy. It's not like they beat you or anything, it's more like a slap on the shoulders, and if you're not cool with then tell them up front and they'll skip you when it comes time. Apparently the use of the stick used to be much heavier, but now it's significantly less so. That last part is from what I've heard as I wasn't there in the 70s. It also seems like Roshi Bodhin is trying to shine more light on the Chan and Chinese part of the practice's history rather than focusing mostly on the Japanese, as well as an emphasis on the precepts. There's more of a move to accommodate the Western way of doing things as well, because in the times I've gone to sesshin there I've never seen a single oryoki set nor a pair of chopsticks. This isn't to say they throw out all traditions, but it's not something intrinsic to Zen practice, so it's not seen as necessary. My experiences are somewhat limited as I've never lived at a Zen Center and I've only been practicing for under a decade as a lay person, but I hope some of this was helpful. Also the podcast is how I found the RZC and I highly recommend it as well. Edit to add: when I put "authentic" in quotes above it was not to question or disparage the authenticity of other lineages, nor of the concept of authentic lineages. just getting that out there. HoboTech fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Apr 13, 2019 |
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Apr 13, 2019 18:19
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To the best of my knowledge, Diamond Way is legit. It's not part of my lineage and I don't have any formal ties to it in any way, but my understanding is that Diamond Way is being run under the auspices of one of the Karmapas. So I wouldn't write them off immediately as a cult, for what it's worth. That doesn't mean it won't have weird bits, it's a lay organization of Tibetan Buddhism in Europe and it's likely to be under an incredible amount of pressure because they are supported by the Sharmapa Karmapa (rather than the Tai Situ Karmapa).
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Apr 14, 2019 01:53
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ive heard lot more good than bad tbh. doesnt change the fact i tried looking it up myself and the random youtube video i clicked on their channel took about 30 seconds before ole started a creed about muslim immigrants. dont listen to my uneducated opinion though
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Apr 14, 2019 08:36
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thank you all for your thoughtful replys
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Apr 14, 2019 13:45
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NikkolasKing posted:I just got Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen though and have heard it highly recommended by a lot of folks. His dunking on Alan Watts is fun.
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Apr 26, 2019 12:52
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joedevola posted:His dunking on Alan Watts is fun. I've gotta say, Alan Watts is great when you've never really been exposed to anything that isn't Judeo-Christian in origin. But man does he not hold up when you've actually been practicing for a while. I'm sure that isn't a controversial statement in this thread, though.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:44
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So, I've got a bit of an issue, and here's the background info for it first. I was born into a mixed-faith family: my father is Jewish and my mother is a Buddhist Thai immigrant. My parents agreed that I would be raised jewish, but my mom spent most of my childhood essentially trying to convert me into buddhism, which I did not react to well as time went on. At some point, she had set up a whole deal where I was going to be a monk at her temple for a few months as part of some kind of ceremony or practice or tradition, but when my dad found out he stopped me from going, which my mom got crazy upset about. Anyways I'm older now and somewhat trying to maintain some kind of connection with my mother, and pretty much any time I'm in the same room as her she'll bring up how I need to go be a monk for her. For the longest time I've been quietly pretty mad about her always insisting that it's something I have to do, but recently I've been thinking that it'd clearly mean a lot to her and I'm not exactly a crazy devout jew, and also she recently explained to me that if I don't do it she'll apparently go to Buddhist hell when she dies (I wasn't really aware that that's how the Buddhist afterlife works but that's what she said). So, I was wondering if anyone here could tell me more about what this practice is, or even tell me the name of it so I can go read about it on my own or something. I kinda really don't want to do it but I'd hate for her to die thinking that she's doomed in the afterlife because her poo poo son wouldn't be a monk for 3 months, so I figure I owe it to her to at least learn what exactly the practice is and whether or not I'd be comfortable doing it ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 07:52
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ninjewtsu posted:So, I've got a bit of an issue, and here's the background info for it first. Okay I feel like you should get an answer here but I also feel like maybe I'm wading into a bunch of insanity like, yikes. I'm sorry you're in this situation at all. I'll answer the question part first: in some SE Asian Buddhist cultures it is standard for teens or young men to spend about 3 months as monks. It's a normal part of their cultural training, just The Done Thing. It's a cultural thing, not a thing of Buddhism - Buddha never taught "everyone better be a monk for 3 months or their moms go to hell." It's just kind of the normal practice. The men can then make informed decisions as to whether to keep their robes and remain as monks, or turn the robes back in. My understanding is that it's normal to do it for at least 3 months, but even men who keep the robes only remain as monks for a few years. In Buddhism generally, there is significant merit in taking the vows so it's basically giving everyone an opportunity to do that thing and see what's up while also getting merit for the family (a family having a person become a monk is good). My understanding is that in Thailand, it would be bad form to not do it. This is all my understanding from side exposure and I can't really guarantee any of it, I'm not a Thai Buddhist and I don't have a lot of exposure to Thai culture. I don't know whether or not there's some kind of belief that men who don't take the vows are dishonoring their families or something culturally, is what I'm saying. I don't know of any theological reason that a mother would go to a hell realm because her son didn't take temporary ordination. I can't say that's not a folk belief or something, I have no idea. It isn't something the Buddha taught tho. I think there's probably just a whole lot to unpack with how you were raised, and I'm sorry that you've been through all that. I hope it hasn't made you resentful towards the Dharma or Buddhists in general; it doesn't sound like it has, but man, I can't imagine how stressful that must be. It does sound a little like maybe there's some manipulation involved, but mothers care a lot for their kids and maybe she's just trying to make sure you get the temporary ordination because of a strong cultural belief that it will being you benefit. It's something you'd have to talk to her about. As for what it is, you take temporary ordination. You're a monk for 3 months. You shave yr head and wear robes and chant sutras, you do basic work around the temple, you study dharma and learn meditation. You follow the monastic code instead of the lay precepts. You just be a monk for a while. If you're between jobs and interested in learning about Buddhism I bet that would be a great opportunity. If you're working or you've been turned off of Buddhism because of yr mom then probably it wouldn't be so good? Anyhow, if there are any Thai practitioners who can shed a bit more light I hope they take the time to respond, otherwise if you have specific questions I can do my best but I can't guarantee it'll be right because, again, it's a whole different flavor of Buddhism.
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Apr 28, 2019 21:01
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I don't have any first-hand experience with Thai Buddhism, but I have definitely read that it's commonly believed that men acquire merit for their mothers by ordaining temporarily.
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Apr 28, 2019 22:56
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Laocius posted:I don't have any first-hand experience with Thai Buddhism, but I have definitely read that it's commonly believed that men acquire merit for their mothers by ordaining temporarily. Yeah. Bit of a far cry from "if you don't I'll go to vajra hell" though.
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Apr 28, 2019 23:17
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you don’t know what kinda life she’s lead, maybe she needs that karmic benefit
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Apr 29, 2019 00:11
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Senju Kannon posted:you don’t know what kinda life she’s lead, maybe she needs that karmic benefit lmao welp OP you're gonna have to decide whether or not you think your mom has lived a virtuous enough life to be able to get by without your monk merit choose wisely
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Apr 29, 2019 01:17
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> tell mom about Nembutsu
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Apr 29, 2019 01:30
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One other thing, which may be inapplicable if the monastery is not in Thailand: there have been a number of scandals over the years, partially, iirc, due to the open door tradition. Sex, inappropriate lifestyles, etc. Probably a small number relative to the number of monks / monasteries, possibly overblown. But worth bearing in mind as you evaluate.
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Apr 29, 2019 04:50
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hey guys, thanks for the responses one thing about my mothers' beliefs is that she's a pretty deeply superstitious person, and also, when i say she's a "thai immigrant" i mean "she was born as one of 14 children on a poor thai farm, 60 years ago," so even within thai culture i imagine she probably has some beliefs that don't quite line up with what the norm is. i guess i feel a little silly for asking about what exactly the practice entails, my thinking going into it was remembering the time as a child that i refused to bow to the statue of buddha, as i was jewish and wasn't to bow to other gods (and my mom just about went nuclear over that), and while i wouldn't think that's a big deal now there might be other things that i wouldn't be comfortable with. but, uh, i'd be becoming a monk, so looking for things that might not be compatible with the jewish faith is pretty silly: i'd essentially become a buddhist for a few months, then go back to being jewish at the end of it. which i can't say i'm thrilled about, but Paramemetic posted:If you're between jobs and interested in learning about Buddhism I bet that would be a great opportunity. is certainly true. i wouldn't say my childhood has made me resentful of buddhism in particular as much as it has the practice of evangelism in general. when i was a kid going through the stuff my mom put me through, i made a point to pay as little attention to anything having to do with buddhism as possible, and now i rather regret not at least coming out of the ordeal with a decent understanding of buddhism. so, becoming a monk would at least get me the knowledge i denied myself, though i can't say my interest is as applicable to "become a monk for 3 months" as it is "maybe pick up a book?" Paramemetic posted:My understanding is that in Thailand, it would be bad form to not do it. Laocius posted:I don't have any first-hand experience with Thai Buddhism, but I have definitely read that it's commonly believed that men acquire merit for their mothers by ordaining temporarily. my mothers' belief might be a rather intense combination of these two things, rather than a literal "i will go to hell if you don't." in trying to talk to her about buddhism (or specifically, i was trying to ask her what her personal beliefs and worldview were), a lot of my questions about what i'd figured would be basic stuff like "what is enlightenment?" and "why are monks not allowed to touch women?" was met with (paraphrasing) "it's not that i don't know, but i don't know how to explain it, and i'm scared that i might explain it wrong." i don't know thai, and while my mom knows english, she's not particularly "good" at it. it's possible that, had i asked her 5 years ago she might have had better answers for me, but on top of english being her second language (that she never had any inclination to learn more of than what was absolutely necessary), she was in a car crash a few years ago and suffered minor brain damage, the biggest effect of which was her english skills regressing very sharply. i guess what i'm getting at is, there may have been a lot of meaning getting warped by translation. though her attitude is, and has been as far back as i can remember, essentially "having a son that becomes a monk is at least half the reason i'd even want to have children," so the extent to which i want to be charitable to her belief is still somewhat in question. in any case, the fact remains that she's pretty deathly serious that i have to do that for her (it's not exactly like i can convince her that she's wrong about what will happen if i don't do it), and i'm at a point where i think it's appropriate for me to at least give it some basic amount of consideration. i'd guess the next step for me would be asking for recs about light reading material about buddhism, but i see now that while i had previously thought i'd read the op, there is a lot of information there that i either didn't read or didn't absorb, and a lot of it is the kind of introductory information i'd want. and there's even a handy list of resources at the end of it! so, thanks for being here thread. if anyone has anything to add about thai culture or thai buddhism or anything i should know about becoming a monk, i'd love to get all the information i can.
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Apr 29, 2019 06:22
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It's good that you're giving it some consideration, in any case. It's an odd situation to be sure. There may be a lot being lost, yeah. The quick summation of how the merit thing works is this: all of our circumstances are the result of cause and effect. Virtuous actions create positive causes and conditions which lead to happy circumstances in the worldly sphere and create the conditions for future benefits. Negative actions, actions which create suffering or engender negative emotions, similarly cause negative conditions for the future which result in future unhappiness. The basic goal of Buddhism is to escape a cycle of suffering by living virtuously and gaining insight into the nature of our minds. Suffering comes from ignorance, which gives rise to attachment and aversion. While most things are fairly straightforward, there are a handful of things that generate tremendous amounts of merit, because the commitment or mental action or so on is so strongly beneficial on a path towards enlightenment and the cessation of suffering. Your mother probably wants you to take ordination because she believes in that cause and effect, and thinks you'll have a better life if you take the vows for a few months as a result. All mothers want their children to have the best lives possible, after all. In addition to ordination, the main thing that generates huge amounts of merit is called "taking refuge," and it's the foundation of all other vows. You would be taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. This means, essentially, saying "hey, I don't really know how to end suffering, but I think the Buddha does, and I think his teachings will help me, and I believe that I can learn those teachings and practice them as part of the community of followers." It isn't quite like worship, and Buddha isn't a God, so I don't know that there are doctrinal issues with Judaism per se. But I don't have a fantastic grasp on Judaism. There are people who read this thread that know a lot more than me though that I'd really like to weigh in here. But taking the monk's vows would also depend on taking refuge. You basically can't do it and not be a Buddhist, at least temporarily. Whether or not you think being Buddhist and being Jewish are mutually exclusive is kind of your determination - I don't know enough about Judaism to say. Giving it consideration is very noble in the first place, and I really respect that. It's a weird situation but you're entertaining making a very strange choice essentially for the benefit of your mother. You're already generating merit just through that compassionate act. So good on you for that. If you read e-books, there's a book I recommend by the Gyalwang Drukpa (head of the Drukpa lineage) called Walking an Uncommon Path. It is very approachable and not deeply theological. A lot of introductory information about Buddhism tends to assume you're either already sold on it and trying to learn how to become a Buddhist, or you're an academic and you're very interested in how particular practices evolved over 2500 years and this and that. This book is different in that it basically is Rinpoche's advice to anyone, not specifically to Buddhists as such. If anything, it's more of a guide to spirituality broadly, through a Buddhist lens. It may be very helpful in both presenting Buddhism and sorting through the question of whether you should do a thing and what your thoughts are about religion generally. Otherwise, Wikipedia is good here, seriously. Just stay on the basic Buddhist stuff - the Four Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path, and so on. Buddhism has a nasty habit of getting real academic or technical, real fast sometimes. Try to focus more on what practices are meant to accomplish in your real actual life while reading about it, and don't focus so much on all the academia. It's easy to get caught in a rabbit hole of enumerated lists of like mental states and like really bizarre transpersonal consciousness states and observations of the philosophical bases underlying how thoughts are formed and this kind of thing when reading about Buddhism, but none of that matters nearly as much as things like "whatever you focus on, your mind forms the habit of going towards that thing, so maybe don't engage in violence or you'll gravitate towards situations where violence happens." like I mean, I keep writing novels just trying to cover all the bases, so there are rabbit holes you can go down. So my advice is in any reading, look at how it applies to you and your lived experiences. Which is again why I recommend that book up there. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Apr 29, 2019 |
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Apr 29, 2019 06:55
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Paramemetic your novels are always great and are saving souls, so keep at it  (Just kidding, Buddhism doesn't have souls.)While the details are not the same, I personally would probably construe taking refuge with similar professions of religious dedication in Christianity and Islam. However, a lot of the meditative techniques and methods which are a large part of the practice don't involve any such thing. There are a lot of other practices floating around but I think all the variations on "just sit" would not involve a religious commitment. I only know a little about the interface between Judaism and Buddhism. I think a lot of American Jews who find Jewish practice unsatisfying gravitate to Buddhism, partly because of cultural/economic factors in the Jewish community in America, and partly because Buddhism is not really much like Christianity at all and the main "other" religious encounter most American Jews have is with some form of Christianity. So nobody's hectoring you, nobody's trying to save your soul or blame you about Jesus, there is no sectarian territory tension between "Buddhist" nations and Israel... it's a lot of factors.
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Apr 29, 2019 08:04
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Nessus posted:> tell mom about Nembutsu this but unironically
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Apr 29, 2019 10:24
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Weighing in a little here at Para's behest as I have a bunch of direct experience with Judaism and observing Jewish law and custom, though with a big disclaimer that I'm not Jewish myself. If you are an observant Jew the biggest thing to keep in mind if you undertake monastic vows is that for the duration of your retreat you may be unable to keep kosher depending on the temple and how they get/prepare their food and you will be unable to observe shabbat or any holidays that may fall during that period of time. In terms of other practice and beliefs, many are honestly the same, and as you begin to learn about tenets like Right Action and Right Speech you will see lots of parallels to Jewish law and custom. The biggest theological barrier will be the belief in anatman, which means Buddhists do not believe in the existence of a soul. Speaking from my experience with a lot of observant (though not orthodox) Jews, but again from a position of not actually being Jewish myself, I don't think there's really any spiritual conflict. The Judaic God has a modicum of chill about most things you'd run into from my understanding. All that said it might be worth getting an opinion from a rabbi.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:19
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My guess is that there would be a very context specific approach, with it being decidedly less chill (at least potentially) if the particulars are seen as falling on the wrong side of certain prohibitions (e.g., prostrations etc might be proscribed as veneration of idols); talking it over with a rabbi is a good recommendation.
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Apr 30, 2019 02:49
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Nessus posted:Paramemetic your novels are always great and are saving souls, so keep at it I agree entirely, Paramemetic's posts, either novel-length or abridged, have been really helpful and educational for me in my time on the forums while walking the path. They are appreciated! --------------- So, I've been thinking a lot lately about climate change. It's a topic we have touched on a bit before, but I was hoping that maybe we could discuss a bit about how to approach what is coming, as practitioners, and what we can do to help beings. Every so often, as of late, I will come across another earth-shattering article or discussion about climate damage and the coming devastation which really gives me pause, more often than not scares the poo poo out of me, and then reminds me, vividly, of just how important and urgent the practice of the dharma is in my life (and in general). I feel a bit conflicted about this, because practicing from a place of fear seems unskillful, but at the same time through practice I am able to transcend this fear and think more clearly about reality and what is coming (with varying levels of success). One of these situations happened a week or two ago, and since then I have been meditating a lot on impermanence and the Heart Sutra, which have helped enormously in allowing me to face death and see it for what it is as simply a dharma. From this, I've been considering the nature of suffering in beings, and have become quite concerned with how beings will react to (severely) worsening climate damage, especially those of us who are not aware of or in touch with the buddhadharma. So, the main thrust of what I've been considering and questioning myself about is: how do we, as practitioners of buddhadharma, work to help alleviate all of the immense suffering to come in the context of a climate system spiraling out of control, perhaps to the point of near-term extinction? What are some skillful things that other practitioners have been doing, or are in the process of doing, to help? How can practitioners prepare ahead of time to best provide stability and calm to the beings around them who have not had the chance to do the same? And how do we navigate all of this as predominantly lay practitioners? Should we think more deeply about right livelihood in a time in which our choice of work impacts the Earth so severely? The state of affairs in which we find ourselves, at present, is of course no different fundamentally, from the perspective of Buddhism, from any other time in the history of life. The reality and conditions for suffering have not changed, nor has the path to the end of that suffering changed. However, I feel that beings on Earth will be at a place of causes and conditions soon which could give rise to unprecedented levels of suffering and the karma that creates, owing to the harshness and totality of climate damage. It could be said that climate damage itself is the karma of Humanity. So, it seems to me that something must be done to try to alleviate this. The bodhisattva ideal has been on my mind a lot, as of late. How can we, in some small way, become Ksitigarbha, and go into the hell realms given rise by climate disaster without being destroyed, or become Avalokiteshvara and hear the cries of those fearful in the face of unprecedented chaos? It has been an important question to me, which I keep asking myself. I submit these humble thoughts and questions to the thread for your consideration, and I am very grateful for anything you all have to suggest in response. Edit: it was the Heart Sutra, not Lotus. All of the sutras are wonderful to study though! Keret fucked around with this message at 00:30 on May 1, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 21:50
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I think the first thing that we need to do is sell any sangha property on the seashore to Republicans at a premium price. Jokes aside, I have wrestled with this same topic and I've thought about how it ties into Buddhism. It seems that the relationship is marginal, for better or worse. As you outline, the main "Buddhist" thing we can do is practice and act with sympathy for suffering beings. As for how to avert or mitigate imminent or mid-term suffering... here I don't know either. However, there are two things that I have myself taken away thus far from my amateurish studies of the dharma that seem relevant. The first is the idea of expedient means, the parable of the house on fire. I feel that in a lot of climate-change related discourse there is the idea that if they can just crank up the proof, if they can go from sixteen citations to sixty, if they can just SAY IT LOUDER -- then they will persuade doubters and inspire the apathetic. I do not think that this is the case. After a few tries, you have to use a different approach, or several. The second is more personal. You are well informed on the topic of climate change... and I do not know if your professional life touches on it. However, even if it should, I have noticed among many of my peers a sort of paralytic masochism, as if they feel obligated to read each and every story and article on the topic, as if there is some salvatory power in the mere reading, in the experience of negative thoughts and sufferings in anticipation. So basically what I would say there is: Be moderate in your consumption of these things, if they do not provide you with meaningful new information, and merely cause you suffering. (This may address an issue which I recognize falsely but I feel obligated to say it, because I have had to express this to people in my personal life in similar mental loops.)
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Apr 30, 2019 23:03
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On a purely personal level I have spent a lot more of my focus on the Eightfold path as of late, instead of on meditation which brought me to buddhism in the first place. I find that being vocal about how, or what I am doing and how it relates to right action or right livelihood gets incredibly positive responses from friends, coworkers, and family. When I talk to the above groups about meditation it is almost aways met with disinterest, but when I say that I’m cutting way back on meat consumption because of environmental and animal justice reasons, I frequently get great feedback. I guess where I’m going with this is that as lay practitioners we can help teach others in a kind way about how to be better stewards of the planet through the eightfold path in a way is currently way under exposed in the west compared to the huge mediation fad. Phone post while holding a sleeping 5 month old, so sorry if Im not very clear.
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Apr 30, 2019 23:12
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Nessus posted:However, even if it should, I have noticed among many of my peers a sort of paralytic masochism, as if they feel obligated to read each and every story and article on the topic, as if there is some salvatory power in the mere reading, in the experience of negative thoughts and sufferings in anticipation. So basically what I would say there is: Be moderate in your consumption of these things, if they do not provide you with meaningful new information, and merely cause you suffering. This is a great point, as a frequenter of the D&D climate thread, it is super easy to go down the rabbit hole and become overly attached to the despair all the articles generate. Same goes for the Trump thread, so I guess I have a lot of work to do letting go.
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Apr 30, 2019 23:26
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SpaceCadetBob posted:This is a great point, as a frequenter of the D&D climate thread, it is super easy to go down the rabbit hole and become overly attached to the despair all the articles generate. Of course it'd be best to use that period for practice but I figure it is better to have ten or fifteen minutes of practice every day than to be constantly thinking 'oh god I should be meditating right now but I don't want to'
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Apr 30, 2019 23:38
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