|
Devil May Cry is anime.
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 20:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
CJacobs posted:Okay, I will. Trial and error isn't inherently unfair. Things behave in consistent and predictable ways, it's just the only way to really see those behaviors is to run up and test them, and for most people, that means getting murdered. Any game where you are literally expected to die is to some degree trial and error, and in Bloodborne, you are very literally required to die to get your first weapon. Trial and error isn't in and of itself a bad thing, it's just very, very tiresome past a certain point. I Wanna Be The Guy is the extreme example of trial and error gameplay, but it, too, is fair, because the behaviors of everything are consistent and learnable. And guess what? I don't like that game either!
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 21:07
|
|
|
Jack Trades posted:Devil May Cry is anime. It’s insanely anime yeah. It even has a literal anime and I think a manga
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 21:13
|
|
|
Spergatory posted:Trial and error isn't inherently unfair. Things behave in consistent and predictable ways, it's just the only way to really see those behaviors is to run up and test them, and for most people, that means getting murdered. Any game where you are literally expected to die is to some degree trial and error, and in Bloodborne, you are very literally required to die to get your first weapon. Trial and error isn't in and of itself a bad thing, it's just very, very tiresome past a certain point. I Wanna Be The Guy is the extreme example of trial and error gameplay, but it, too, is fair, because the behaviors of everything are consistent and learnable. And guess what? I don't like that game either! What? No you're not. If you make it to the first lantern (which only requires fighting 3 enemies including the werewolf which starts with half health) you go to the hunter's dream and get to pick up a weapon. You have a full moveset even though it doesn't do much damage and can do backstabs with your bare hands. But even so, you are expected to die to it to show just how important having a weapon is. There is nothing "trial and error" about it. The death is planned. You can 100% absolutely win the fight against the werewolf, but it is intentionally so hard that you are not supposed to because you don't have the majority of your toolkit in the first 2 minutes of the game. Hmm, it's almost like DMC 5 opens with exactly that same scenario. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Apr 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 21:31
|
|
|
I am seriously having a hard time believing you are using a borderline scripted death that you legitimately can get out of if you're familiar with the genre as an example of "trial and error" gameplay. Maybe you should take up building model ships instead dude.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 21:40
|
|
|
DMC5 also begins with a forced death 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 21:47
|
|
|
Spergatory posted:Trial and error isn't inherently unfair. Things behave in consistent and predictable ways, it's just the only way to really see those behaviors is to run up and test them, and for most people, that means getting murdered. Any game where you are literally expected to die is to some degree trial and error, and in Bloodborne, you are very literally required to die to get your first weapon. Trial and error isn't in and of itself a bad thing, it's just very, very tiresome past a certain point. I Wanna Be The Guy is the extreme example of trial and error gameplay, but it, too, is fair, because the behaviors of everything are consistent and learnable. And guess what? I don't like that game either! You don't have to run up and let someone murder you to learn attacks in Bloodborne. You need to think about what you're seeing but it's very consistent and even if you make a mistake that knowledge carries on to future fights where you won't make the same mistake... which is the way almost every video game in the world works. Video games are based on an internal language, some of which is carried over to other games and some of which expects you to learn the game's language. A really obvious one which isn't clear to brand new gamers is the idea of invincibility frames. They are a super common part of games but learning about them is key to success in a lot of genres. DMC as a genre is one where you absolutely have to learn about 'illogical' gameplay mechanics to really thrive or even to survive boss fights because it functions on video game and anime logic. If you've played similar games it's easy to bring knowledge from those over and a lot of games are designed with the assumption you are doing this. However if you're new to the genre things can seem strange or punishing and you'll die a lot. The earlier discussion about Cerberus is a great example of this because if you're a newcomers to the games he is very different from if you understand the language of the game, which is why you get people using E&I to plink him down because "guy is scary up close, I have guns" makes sense to people coming into the genre from something that doesn't have the same expectations as DMC.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 21:48
|
|
|
Augus posted:DMC5 also begins with a forced death Unless you acquire greatness and beat him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:01
|
|
|
I didn't read a word of what anyone posted about Bloodborne. The discussion is over. I'm not arguing with you about it anymore. This is the loving DMC5 topic. I'm sorry I even brought it up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:34
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The earlier discussion about Cerberus is a great example of this because if you're a newcomers to the games he is very different from if you understand the language of the game, which is why you get people using E&I to plink him down because "guy is scary up close, I have guns" makes sense to people coming into the genre from something that doesn't have the same expectations as DMC. This is exactly what put my friend off DMC3 when I lent it to him; he mostly played only FP/third person shooters at that point, so his entire approach to the game was "shoot from range, panic slash melee if they get too close". I think he got to just after Gigapede when he gave up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:39
|
|
|
Spergatory posted:I didn't read a word of what anyone posted about Bloodborne. The discussion is over. I'm not arguing with you about it anymore. This is the loving DMC5 topic. I'm sorry I even brought it up.  Pesky Splinter posted:This is exactly what put my friend off DMC3 when I lent it to him; he mostly played only FP/third person shooters at that point, so his entire approach to the game was "shoot from range, panic slash melee if they get too close". Yeah. It's something that gets missed a lot on gaming forums but a lot of people have certain gaming knowledge (or lack it) and it's tough to both teach it to them without boring long-time players. DMC is of mixed-success on this but a lot of character action games try to focus on the idea of giving you only the core basic mechanics and then slowly introducing new ones with fights that specifically show their strengths/weaknesses. It's why a lot of them don't give you an entire skillset from the start.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:39
|
|
|
Spergatory’s name and post combinations are so consistent I’m 60/40 between “he’s real/it’s a bit where he is literally trapped in a prison of his own autism”.
Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:44
|
|
|
To be fair the guns in the first and second devil may cry are insanely good so I can see why even someone who played the first two would also use guns. I feel 3 and on nerf them somewhat
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:48
|
|
|
Pesky Splinter posted:This is exactly what put my friend off DMC3 when I lent it to him; he mostly played only FP/third person shooters at that point, so his entire approach to the game was "shoot from range, panic slash melee if they get too close". Sounds like a good candidate for DMC 2 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:50
|
|
|
Spergatory posted:I didn't read a word of what anyone posted about Bloodborne. The discussion is over. I'm not arguing with you about it anymore. This is the loving DMC5 topic. I'm sorry I even brought it up. lmao
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 22:59
|
|
|
Spergatory posted:I didn't read a word of what anyone posted about Bloodborne. The discussion is over. I'm not arguing with you about it anymore. This is the loving DMC5 topic. I'm sorry I even brought it up. "I'm not owned! I actively refuse to acknowledge that I've been owned! You're the ones who've been owned!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:02
|
|
|
The ultimate irony is that if a “Spergatory” existed, ie a metaphysical place where deathless agents moved through a world, unaffected by time but paralyzed by trying to comprehend complex and arcane video game mechanics... it would literally be Bloodborne.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:33
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Yeah. It's something that gets missed a lot on gaming forums but a lot of people have certain gaming knowledge (or lack it) and it's tough to both teach it to them without boring long-time players. DMC is of mixed-success on this but a lot of character action games try to focus on the idea of giving you only the core basic mechanics and then slowly introducing new ones with fights that specifically show their strengths/weaknesses. It's why a lot of them don't give you an entire skillset from the start. The idea of doing this is just so strange to me considering Nero's gun is super slow, and Dante's are weak unless you actually know how to use them (which I have never really been able to do that well). How do people do nothing but stay away from enemies and fire at them thinking "this is what I'm supposed to be doing"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:41
|
|
|
Momomo posted:The idea of doing this is just so strange to me considering Nero's gun is super slow, and Dante's are weak unless you actually know how to use them (which I have never really been able to do that well). How do people do nothing but stay away from enemies and fire at them thinking "this is what I'm supposed to be doing"? Their assumption is that it's a flaw in the game, not in their playstyle most often. Edit: Even some people who are aware it's the intended gameplay style will feel this way and say it's the developer's fault for offering a safe-but-boring method. The style system is supposed to help with that but it doesn't work for everyone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:47
|
|
|
imo what they have is fine, it took like a few seconds of concentrated fire back in DmC for me to understand that the pistols are for keeping your combo from decreasing while you reposition and not much else. Guns have been made really useful offensively in DMC 5 (Dante's shotgun in particular does obscene damage at point-blank) but they're still not very good as your main damage dealer and I think they did a good job of keeping it obvious enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:50
|
|
|
I got some solid mileage this week using Gunslinger lvl2-3 Artemis umm what are they called, the laser gun and the sniper rifle in my DMC 3 very hard run, it was p cool and makes me wanna play around with gunslinger in 5 for more than just a few combo points
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:54
|
|
|
I do still find myself rarely using guns, if only because I can just teleport in front of a far away dude and knock his head off with a real impact
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:55
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Their assumption is that it's a flaw in the game, not in their playstyle most often. I feel like instances like these just need to add "...in a reasonable amount of time" into their win conditions. Using melee weapons will help you win fights... in a reasonable amount of time. Sure you can use nothing but Ebony and Ivory, but if you're trying to finish the levels faster than like two hours, it's essentially a loss because it's not fun to play that way. It's like trying to write by keeping the pencil stationary and moving the paper. Sure, it will work, but it'll take way longer than doing it the proper way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2019 23:59
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYOp45LoerM
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 00:10
|
|
|
lol
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 00:12
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 00:15
|
|
|
Smokin’ Sick Style!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
Momomo posted:I feel like instances like these just need to add "...in a reasonable amount of time" into their win conditions. Using melee weapons will help you win fights... in a reasonable amount of time. Sure you can use nothing but Ebony and Ivory, but if you're trying to finish the levels faster than like two hours, it's essentially a loss because it's not fun to play that way. It's like trying to write by keeping the pencil stationary and moving the paper. Sure, it will work, but it'll take way longer than doing it the proper way. I agree 100% but it's just how some people work. They quite literally will always go for the safest and most reliable method over anything else. I can't say it's a majority of gamers or anything but it's enough people that it's something developers have to keep in mind when designing systems. Even if a mechanic is unenjoyable there are groups who will use it because the end goal is 'winning' and if they're not doing that they're having no fun either. It also can change a lot for multiplayer games where there's absolutely no reason, no matter how boring it is, not to go for the solution that earns you a win. The best you can do is develop for your target audience and try to make it as accessible as possible to other groups.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 00:21
|
|
|
God bless you, pomp
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 02:42
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 03:07
|
|
|
Jack Trades posted:Devil May Cry is anime. More of the cheesy action anime like Redline than the teenage protagonist and oversexualised 13 year old girls anime thank God.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 05:05
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 05:46
|
|
|
Hot Take: In Devil May Cry 6 Nero should have a new weapon with the word yellow in it's name. Just something I thought about while trying to get to the bottom of BP. Also way back to the "V needs just a little something more." I honestly think he would of benefited from just a few more then just the one cane move. Make the gimmick is they all have command inputs that are unique in the franchise like that full circle+button one. Do a some dumb street fighter poo poo and then Phantom face pokes out of the cane to shoot a fireball. CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Ya I really liked the setting for 1 too. I wouldn't mind if they did it again for a future game, just having one creepy area that you can explore as the game progresses. Imagine playing exactly one level, maybe right at the start, as a normal rear end human. Bootleg Leon running though rooms with some pre-4 RE style gameplay just as a meta joke about the DMC franchises origins. And you can show how scary the demons are when you aren't Uncle Dante and his Posse Of Absurd Badasses Whitenoise Poster fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Apr 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 06:09
|
|
|
Where's my Crew Cut DLC
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 07:01
|
|
|
Spergatory posted:Nero has so many loving mechanics that I literally forgot about one. I forgot that he can just, like, hold dudes. He can put dudes in his time-out hand, and keep them there, and they don't do anything, and they take damage for him. This has revolutionized the way I play Bloody Palace now. No more do I see a group of Antenoras and panic when I accidentally knock them all down; now I just grab one and laugh while all his friends cut him to pieces trying to get to me. All those levels where Furies are tossed in amongst other enemies; those aren't enemies, silly, they're free meat shields! Just grab one and hold it up to take the punishment when you inevitably mistime your fifteenth parry attempt. Better it than you! Any given mook will absorb 90% of a Fury's attempts to attack you as long at you're locked onto them. They actively become a joke as long as you have another dude to put between you and him. It's wonderful. I love Nero's time-out hand. And what's more; in Devil Trigger, he gets TWO time-out hands! He can hold two dudes, and keep holding them even after DT turns off! Life is so much easier once it realize Nero can literally just be like "I'll get to you later" to two entire enemies and they'll just be like "guess_ill_die.jpg Nero has so many buttons I swear I now got up to floor 50 with him before dying to the screen full of empusa queens. Some things I've found: -Ragtime is super good on the heavy enemies if you're fighting one on one - I think it makes them more easily staggered for launches and grabs. On furies for example if I ragtime then hit them I can almost always get a grab, where I think I never got a grab on them without it? -A lot of enemies let you exceed during the actual grab animation, especially bosses - Some of them it looks like do extra damage that way too but they fill up your exceed meter while you do it -The full charge shot is INCREDIBLY strong. I underestimated how good it is because it takes so so long to fully charge, but you can charge it during long grab animations as well where you aren't doing anything else (Very useful on the bosses). This isn't the charge that gives you 3 bullets, this is where your arm starts glowing and there are 3 full levels of glow past that -One of the taunts fully loads your gun -You can exceed and I think hold gun charge in between bloody palace levels -You can air taunt and if you exceed at the right time it fully charges your exceed meter All in all I find Dante still much easier to do well with even though he's harder in the moment - because the battles are so specific you can just say "OK for this floor I'm using Gunslinger + this weapon" and not have to switch too much mid-fight.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 10:47
|
|
|
Whitenoise Poster posted:Imagine playing exactly one level, maybe right at the start, as a normal rear end human. Bootleg Leon running though rooms with some pre-4 RE style gameplay just as a meta joke about the DMC franchises origins. And you can show how scary the demons are when you aren't Uncle Dante and his Posse Of Absurd Badasses I think this could work. A really short section at the start playing as a scrub in Nero's devil hunters order (I'm assuming Nero and Kyrie want to rebuild the Order of the Sword, just without the shitheads at the top). No mooks, just a single battle with a reasonably difficult miniboss, then win or lose about 10 more of the same enemy pop up and simply body the poor dude. Cue cutscene, Nero intervenes and saves his underling, switch back to gameplay and the miniboss is actually the weakest demon mook in the game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 11:55
|
|
|
Exceed, blue rose charge and break age charge all carry through levels. You can max your exceed gauge on any sword attack, not just the taunt - including as you note grab animations where the red queen is involved - with the right timing. Also to make the most of Dante you should be switching styles constantly, particularly between defensive (Trickster/Royal Guard) and offensive (Swordmaster/Gunslinger), though this takes time to get used to (having played DMC4 for something like 40 hours I only got really comfortable with it in DMC5).
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 11:59
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fd1IEC4oa4 DUMMY THICC!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 13:23
|
|
|
SSS ranking should've been Otacon saying Snake? Snake?!? SNAKE!!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 13:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
I think the most important thing people should mention about Devil May Cry 1 is that it's basically an action Resident Evil rather than something like what DMC went on to become.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2019 14:09
|
|
