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FoolyCharged posted:It's happened a whopping 5 times in over 2 centuries of rule. And yeah, a couple million is in fact a negligible percentage of the current 328,611,726 residents of the US. There was not a huge mandate for hillary over trump nor was there a huge mandate for trump over hillary. Quite the oppposite, that election featured the most electoral college votes pissed away protesting the party candidate in history. - 5 elections out of 58, or it's been contrary to how human beings voted about 8.6% - only 138 million people voted, 3 million votes is about 2.17% of that these are not negligible numbers. I mean, you're not wrong about protest votes being dumb as gently caress, sure
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Apr 16, 2019 02:01
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FoolyCharged posted:They weren't ignored. They were counted as part of the system that everyone knew and was playing from the word go. Maybe that's everyone's problem? Just because everyone knows ahead of time that some votes are worth more than others doesn't somehow make it okay.
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Apr 16, 2019 02:18
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This whole thing started with a dude angrily posting to Twitter that the electoral college had failed the country twice recently because the popular vote didn't match the outcome. That's the mentality that I dont like, because the whole crummy system distorts the entire election cycle to the point that the "popular vote" resembles nothing of the sort making the comparison to the results meaningless. Its ignoring real problems with the system that exist even in years without that kind of mismatch.
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Apr 16, 2019 02:35
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What is this distortion you're talking about? Republicans vote Democrat for fun because it doesn't matter in their state? 3 million votes were practically thrown away and you're all like 'well that's just 1% of the electorate, who cares!' as if 1% makes it actually being 3,000,000 okay. e: and what does it matter if you disagree on why the policy is bad if you agree it's bad? Zanzibar Ham fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Apr 16, 2019 |
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Apr 16, 2019 02:40
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FoolyCharged posted:This whole thing started with a dude angrily posting to Twitter that the electoral college had failed the country twice recently because the popular vote didn't match the outcome. That's the mentality that I dont like, because the whole crummy system distorts the entire election cycle to the point that the "popular vote" resembles nothing of the sort making the comparison to the results meaningless. The only way your arguments would make sense is if we believed that conservatives stay home in red states a lot more often then Dems stay home in blue states. Then yeah you could argue the electoral college didn't fail us because the popular vote would have gone the other way if everyone knew their votes counted. I don't think any of us believe that, we believe the opposite (GOP voters always vote, and Dems stay home more often in blue states) which makes it even worse: the "real" popular vote where everyone knew their vote counted would have (probably) been a much bigger popular vote win for the Dems.
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Apr 16, 2019 02:58
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FoolyCharged posted:It's happened a whopping 5 times in over 2 centuries of rule. And yeah, a couple million is in fact a negligible percentage of the current 328,611,726 residents of the US. There was not a huge mandate for hillary over trump nor was there a huge mandate for trump over hillary. Quite the oppposite, that election featured the most electoral college votes pissed away protesting the party candidate in history. Why is five times in two centuries acceptable? What purpose does the EC serve that was worth overturning the will of the electorate twice?
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Apr 16, 2019 03:14
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FoolyCharged posted:It's happened a whopping 5 times in over 2 centuries of rule. And yeah, a couple million is in fact a negligible percentage of the current 328,611,726 residents of the US. There was not a huge mandate for hillary over trump nor was there a huge mandate for trump over hillary. Quite the oppposite, that election featured the most electoral college votes pissed away protesting the party candidate in history. Another way of phrasing this is that only one of the last four presidents was elected without the taint of a popular vote loss. Clinton had a plurality both times, Dubya and Trump both lost the popular vote.
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Apr 16, 2019 03:26
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Speaking of the popular vote three states in the past month have signed on to the national popular vote interstate compact so hopefully there's some renewed momentum to make the electoral college obsolete.
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Apr 16, 2019 03:56
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Skex posted:Rosa Parks was arrested for protesting that she wasn't treated the same as others, the whole point of the entire civil rights movement was that the laws of the nation were not treating people the same, that there were different rules for black people than for white people. This is not even remotely the equivalent. The law's the law. She broke it, she had to pay the price. That's your own argument. Or, are you actually willing to admit that some laws and legal proceedings are unjust and need to be fought?
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Apr 16, 2019 04:34
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withak posted:You should tell your idiot friends that there are elections more important than president that they need to vote in. True I know. But people who are not motivated to vote in presidential elections are also not motivated to go at all to vote in down ticket elections. That's how we get terrible state senators and congressmen even from "liberal states" all the time. poo poo needs to get fixed to make it as easy to vote as possible and make all the votes matter for the presidential election.
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Apr 16, 2019 05:21
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derpy posted:Speaking of the popular vote three states in the past month have signed on to the national popular vote interstate compact so hopefully there's some renewed momentum to make the electoral college obsolete. I'll believe it when a state to the right of Colorado signs up
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Apr 16, 2019 05:35
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Flesh Forge posted:- 5 elections out of 58, or it's been contrary to how human beings voted about 8.6% Also, not everyone in America is eligible to vote. The total number of registered voters was 157.5 million in 2016. FronzelNeekburm fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Apr 16, 2019 |
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Apr 16, 2019 07:47
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Megillah Gorilla posted:The law's the law. She broke it, she had to pay the price. That's one of the core principles of civil disobedience. The sacrifice is part of the statement. Megillah Gorilla posted:Or, are you actually willing to admit that some laws and legal proceedings are unjust and need to be fought? That's why civil disobedience exists in the first place. To protest unjust laws. You're missing the concept in a big way.
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Apr 16, 2019 08:11
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FoolyCharged posted:I live in a state that votes red as hell and functionally dont get a vote in the presidential elections. That's an actual, legitimate problem with the system. The raw vote counts not matching the election results in close races on rare occasion is not. Rare? It's something like a 20% chance of the popular vote and electoral college being different given a close election. edit: also why is five times in 49 elections rare James Garfield fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Apr 16, 2019 |
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Apr 16, 2019 08:26
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Rad Russian posted:True I know. But people who are not motivated to vote in presidential elections are also not motivated to go at all to vote in down ticket elections. That's how we get terrible state senators and congressmen even from "liberal states" all the time. poo poo needs to get fixed to make it as easy to vote as possible and make all the votes matter for the presidential election. It'd be nice to have a day off work to go cast your vote like they do in South Korea for the presidential elections. It's a red day once every 5 years, I can't see that being a problem.
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Apr 16, 2019 08:45
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Charlz Guybon posted:https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/1117578355161825282 Timothy Snyder is legit. He's a professor of history at Yale focusing on 20th century Central European history and on the board of the Holocaust Museum. He's probably most famous for his book "Bloodlands", which is a look at the lands that were occupied by both Germany and the Soviet Union during WWII.
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Apr 16, 2019 12:37
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Epicurius posted:Timothy Snyder is legit. He's a professor of history at Yale focusing on 20th century Central European history and on the board of the Holocaust Museum. He's probably most famous for his book "Bloodlands", which is a look at the lands that were occupied by both Germany and the Soviet Union during WWII. Also Black Earth, which came a little afterwards and is concerned with the same area but with a more specific focus on the Holocaust (I think, I've not read Bloodlands, only Black Earth) In any case, he is indeed legit.
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Apr 16, 2019 14:46
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https://twitter.com/FiveThirtyEight/status/1117906615716331520 This could be good? Not likely to result in anything but hey, at least it's something.
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Apr 16, 2019 14:51
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If it leads to further GOP candidacies then it's something.
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Apr 16, 2019 14:53
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Good news: Omar is getting hella donations: https://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/439044-omar-rakes-in-massive-online-fundraising-haul-amid-controversies Her take is up 2000% from $41k to $830k and is outraising basically every other dem house member currently.
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Apr 16, 2019 15:10
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James Garfield posted:Rare? It's something like a 20% chance of the popular vote and electoral college being different given a close election. lol, yeah that is not even considered "rare" in a pack of Magic cards
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Apr 16, 2019 15:57
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Good news: Omar is getting hella donations: https://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/439044-omar-rakes-in-massive-online-fundraising-haul-amid-controversies Good, destruction to her critics.
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Apr 16, 2019 17:26
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Megillah Gorilla posted:The law's the law. She broke it, she had to pay the price. Oh I fully recognize that some laws and legal proceedings are unjust and need to be fought, I just don't believe that this is one of those cases.
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Apr 16, 2019 20:19
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ughhhhhhhhhhhh https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1118213456312897553
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Apr 16, 2019 21:56
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yea it'd suck if Bernie had the same trajectory as famous loser, Donald Trump
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Apr 16, 2019 22:00
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There is this totally alien concept "who will people actually want to vote for" that gets lost in all Stopping Socialism 
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Apr 16, 2019 22:15
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Rigel posted:lol, yeah that is not even considered "rare" in a pack of Magic cards That's straight up basic land territory, at least in the early days. Which is also what votes! More significantly the distortions of votes cast and representation has been exacerbated by the limiting of the number of house seats and (more generally) the improvement in gerrymandering techniques.
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Apr 16, 2019 22:33
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Isn't that irrelevant for the EC discussion though, since it's winner takes all on state level? I have to agree with FoolyCharged a little here, the EC is dumb and should be abolished, but saying that it overruled the people when the results didn't match the popular vote doesn't really make sense. The candidates campaigned and the voters voted with the understanding of the system as it is, if the popular vote counted, there's no way Trump would've gotten the same 62.9m votes and Hillary 65.8m votes. She might've won but nobody knows what "the people" wanted, at least not based on these numbers.
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Apr 17, 2019 00:28
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mobby_6kl posted:Isn't that irrelevant for the EC discussion though, since it's winner takes all on state level? We do know though, based on polling data, and the results themselves.
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Apr 17, 2019 00:38
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HootTheOwl posted:We do know though, based on polling data, and the results themselves. Except that data is heavily influenced by where the candidates chose to campaign, and the electoral college plays a huge part in influencing where and how much the candidates choose to do so.
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Apr 17, 2019 02:28
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Saying that the popular vote loser winning the election isn't a serious problem with the electoral college because the candidates would campaign differently if it were a popular vote strikes me as horribly missing the point, considering that "candidates only campaign in close states" is also a commonly cited problem with the electoral college. (also considering that the immediate previous argument was that it isn't a serious problem because it's "rare")
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Apr 17, 2019 05:08
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Flesh Forge posted:There is this totally alien concept "who will people actually want to vote for" that gets lost in all Stopping Socialism "Stopping Socialism" this week are articles just asking questions on why Bernie won't apologize to America for being a millionaire 1%er.
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Apr 17, 2019 11:04
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Officials Seek Woman ‘Infatuated’ With Columbine Who Made Threats in Denver Area Apparently a crazy Florida lady flew to Denver, Colorado, bought a shotgun and headed into the foothills. At the time of this story, nobody was shot and the suspect is reported missing and not yet criminal. Local source: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article229346734.html
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Apr 17, 2019 11:08
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mllaneza posted:That's one of the core principles of civil disobedience. The sacrifice is part of the statement. Dude, that's the argument _I'm_ making. Skex is the one saying to throw people in a hole forever for insulting the glorious will of the Forever Forefathers.
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Apr 17, 2019 11:12
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Mekchu posted:https://twitter.com/FiveThirtyEight/status/1117906615716331520 Why would he choose that wardrobe and hair style/color? 
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Apr 17, 2019 11:49
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Stickman posted:Why would he choose that wardrobe and hair style/color? Searching Bill Weld 2016 it seems he's had that color a long time. Why give into Trump on anything?
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Apr 17, 2019 12:03
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mobby_6kl posted:... saying that it overruled the people when the results didn't match the popular vote doesn't really make sense. The candidates campaigned and the voters voted with the understanding of the system as it is, if the popular vote counted, there's no way Trump would've gotten the same 62.9m votes and Hillary 65.8m votes. She might've won but nobody knows what "the people" wanted, at least not based on these numbers. "Within our limited ability to reason about an alternate universe with a different Constitution where events played out differently, it seems that the EC overruled the people." Ok, so we don't know exactly how things would have played out. Why does this specific situation demand metaphysical certainty? Who even gives a poo poo?
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Apr 17, 2019 12:53
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Stickman posted:Why would he choose that wardrobe and hair style/color? To confuse people?
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Apr 17, 2019 12:56
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I mean, given that Weld is “same policies, but a better media image” it’s apropos
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Apr 17, 2019 15:10
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I'm curious if Trump can resist the urge to destroy a "traitor." Weld represents no real threat to Trump as he is, but if he can bruise Trump's ego then we might be able to hope for some temporary disruption to GOP unity and their narrative as Trump rekindles old rivalries with those have "failed" him in the past.
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Apr 17, 2019 16:13
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