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Ginette Reno posted:The North couldn't outright conquer the South but they could have won by making it a huge drain on resources/men/morale to deal with them. Eventually the Lannisters would have sued for peace if they kept losing battles. If Robb had avoided being assassinated he could have just holed up in the North and dared the Lannisters to try to come get him and then they'd have to deal with the harsh conditions etc. I mean yeah Robb almost certainly could have just declared himself King in the North, revolted against the rest of the Kingdoms, and held up in the North and dared them to do anything about it. Particularly with winter coming invading the North is pretty analogous to trying to invade Russia: it's a huge frozen nightmare to try to navigate, occupy, or fight in. And you're inevitably going to be commanding a ton of troops who have little to no experience fighting in those conditions vs a force that - while smaller - is much better acclimated. If the Lannisters even bothered to try an invasion at all, it would have probably resulted in them getting bogged down and eventually suing for peace. That wasn't Robb's goal though: he wanted revenge for Ned and that meant putting Joffrey's head on a spike, which meant he had to leave his incredibly defensible lands and go march into the south on an offensive campaign. Also negotiate passage with Frey to go south in the first place, which was the first domino to fall in the sequence leading to his eventual death. That said it's not just the Starks that are dumb, but a lot of the "honorable" northern houses that back them as well. It's entirely possible that had Robb suggested just buttoning up in the North and waiting for the Lannisters to throw themselves into the meat grinder, his banners would have revolted because the plan was cowardly. The whole King in the North gambit really only works if everybody is on board with abusing every advantage they can.
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Apr 17, 2019 18:03
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Yeah he gets declared king explicitly to avenge Ned and dudes start deserting even as he’s doing well in the Riverlands. Sucks Ned couldn’t get word to them that he was pro-Stannis.
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Apr 17, 2019 18:10
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Ned did, Stannis refused to acknowledge Robb’s claim to King in the North.
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Apr 17, 2019 18:25
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Yeah the Robb-Stannis situation is pretty similar to the Jon-Dany one, albeit without the dragons or the loving. Jon chose to give up his crown to back Dany, but Robb wasn't about to do the same for Stannis. Also I'm pretty sure it was implied that while they weren't particularly happy about it, the deal Renley negotiated with Catelyn where Robb joins up and bends the knee, but still gets to keep his title as an honorific would have been taken had Renley not gotten shadow-babied three seconds later.
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Apr 17, 2019 18:32
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Has it been mentioned that we know the fate of Eddy, the Lannister soldier played by Ed Sheeren in Season 7? One of the whores entertaining Bronn mentions him quote:"That boy Eddy" - "The ginger?" - "That's him. Came back with his face burned right off. Got no eyelids now."
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Apr 17, 2019 18:32
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What if there's a twist that the white walkers actually don't really care about anything except passing through Westeros and they only kill people when they're in the way Maybe they're just trying to get home or whatever
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Apr 17, 2019 18:37
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Ned did, Stannis refused to acknowledge Robb’s claim to King in the North. Stannis also said Robb could keep calling himself King in the North as much as he liked. As long as he pledged loyalty. Also before the Conquest the Starks were the Kings of Winter. Which is quite a bit more metal. Xae fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 17, 2019 |
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Apr 17, 2019 18:37
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Xae posted:Stannis also said Robb could keep calling himself King in the North as much as he liked. As long as he pledged loyalty. Apparently I have my deals mixed up, haven't watched the older seasons in ages. What was the deal with Renley then? Was he actually willing to let the North leave the Kingdoms? I remember Catelyn didn't like either deal, but was more inclined to back Renley.
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Apr 17, 2019 18:40
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mcbexx posted:Has it been mentioned that we know the fate of Eddy, the Lannister soldier played by Ed Sheeren in Season 7? "I see fire" indeed
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Apr 17, 2019 18:41
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The only real defeat Robb suffered before the red wedding was when the Karstark forces abandoned him. Robb killed the head of the family who had disobeyed Robb and killed some Lannister children as revenge for Jaime's escape attempt. With one death Robb lost half his army. The Northerners would rather lose with honor than win. Hell, Jon left to get allies and now they're mad he came back with them. e:VVV Oh yeah, I vaguely remember that now. They're still too proud for their own good though. As Nero Danced fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Apr 17, 2019 |
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Apr 17, 2019 18:54
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To be fair they were mad that he left to go get allies at all. Sansa - who remember the show is trying to convince us is super smart no really guys - got particularly pissy about it.
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Apr 17, 2019 19:02
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In the books, it's all Edmure's fault for wanting that windmill.
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Apr 17, 2019 19:15
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From what I remember: 1) Book Catelyn does the most stupid stuff starting with convincing Ned to become Hand 2) Rob does the second most stupid stuff mainly because he gets all SUPER NED HONORABLE PERSON in cases when he should be playing politics with his forces and then doesn't give a gently caress about honor when he wants a woman, then goes right back into super honor mode. Ned was honorable to a fault, whereas Rob was only honorable due to convenience 3) Ned is really stupid because he's all honor to the detriment of everything starting with the initial execution of the deserter being all about honorable leader being the executioner, and not about *why* he deserted
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Apr 17, 2019 19:35
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Isn't Robb also like 14 in the books? Kinda makes the whole "honorable until he sees a nice pair of tits" thing make a lot more sense.
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Apr 17, 2019 19:39
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Darko posted:From what I remember: I'll be interested to see the book take on the whole "Ned not actually killing Arthur Dayne in fair combat". I never quite understood why he kept that under wraps.
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Apr 17, 2019 19:42
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Sydin posted:Isn't Robb also like 14 in the books? Kinda makes the whole "honorable until he sees a nice pair of tits" thing make a lot more sense. Isn't the point that Robb had knocked Jeyne/Talisa up so marrying her was the honorable thing?
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Apr 17, 2019 19:45
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Sure but it probably would have been more honorable to not jump into some random girl's pants after you've already made a political alliance predicated on your future engagement to somebody else.
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Apr 17, 2019 20:00
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NtotheTC posted:I'll be interested to see the book take on the whole "Ned not actually killing Arthur Dayne in fair combat". I never quite understood why he kept that under wraps. Since one of the guys there used a net I like to think he just threw it over Dayne and Ned stabbed him
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Apr 17, 2019 20:02
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bobjr posted:Since one of the guys there used a net I like to think he just threw it over Dayne and Ned stabbed him The merman link we've been missing this whole time. Fish are notoriously weak to net-based weaponry.
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Apr 17, 2019 20:10
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Yeah, if you look at Robb, his story is basically the tragedy of living in the shadow of his father. He thinks ned knocked up a rando girl and didnt marry her, and he doesnt want to repeat his dad's one (ostensible) dishonor. Living in the shadow of parents/ancestors/history is a repeated theme throughout the books that all of the major characters explore in one way or another and the show really dropped the ball on this one in favor of tits and dragons
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Apr 17, 2019 20:10
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Sydin posted:Sure but it probably would have been more honorable to not jump into some random girl's pants after you've already made a political alliance predicated on your future engagement to somebody else. I still find it funny that he'd do something as stupid as betray a key ally and then go to celebrate that betrayal in the ally's house and expect no hard feelings.
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Apr 17, 2019 20:10
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Farrier Theaks posted:Yeah, if you look at Robb, his story is basically the tragedy of living in the shadow of his father. He thinks ned knocked up a rando girl and didnt marry her, and he doesnt want to repeat his dad's one (ostensible) dishonor. Living in the shadow of parents/ancestors/history is a repeated theme throughout the books that all of the major characters explore in one way or another and the show really dropped the ball on this one in favor of tits and dragons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP1B-UnPofU
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Apr 17, 2019 20:21
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precision posted:What if there's a twist that the white walkers actually don't really care about anything except passing through Westeros and they only kill people when they're in the way This would be pretty funny. Night King just wants a taste of Dornish wine and stick his toes in the sand for an afternoon. He just happens to be bringing the world's largest entourage with him.
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Apr 17, 2019 20:22
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Also, Robb did do the honorable thing (at least in his own mind) by not just discarding the girl as one would an old shirt. He didn't go out carousing looking for tits, he received word of his family member's death and Jeyne's family, at the behest of Tywin, encouraged/forced Jeyne to seduce him. Robb didn't dishonor the engagement by bedding another girl, he dishonored it by calling it off to do what he believed to be the right thing. Robb was naive sure, but he wasn't just some horny kid thinking with his dick. He was trying to show that his father had raised him to be an honorable man.
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Apr 17, 2019 20:25
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Robb should have been smart like his dad and gotten word around about some prophecy bullshit with a tower and a sword or whatever to cover his tracks
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Apr 17, 2019 20:39
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Zaphod42 posted:Weird post, I never said it stopped. The whole point is it is coming back, and so is magic. And its been gone awhile. Dunno man you seem to have misread me. The last winter was 9 years ago. Magic has been dead for centuries. Goons continue to be bad at watching TV/reading books.
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Apr 17, 2019 20:56
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"GRRM" posted:
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1365
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Apr 17, 2019 21:02
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D-Pad posted:The last winter was 9 years ago. Magic has been dead for centuries. Magic isn't dead, it just generally stays in kooky warlock covens in the Mysterious East and hasn't marched south of the wall in any of its varieties for a long time. This has allowed groups like House Lannister to rationalize unpredictably long seasons (and the less we say about how little that lines up with how the setting works the better) and a giant ice wall.
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Apr 17, 2019 21:03
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Magic is dead I say while watching a person get resurrected while another one gives birth to a shadow demon.
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Apr 17, 2019 21:05
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Midgetskydiver posted:Also, Robb did do the honorable thing (at least in his own mind) by not just discarding the girl as one would an old shirt. He didn't go out carousing looking for tits, he received word of his family member's death and Jeyne's family, at the behest of Tywin, encouraged/forced Jeyne to seduce him. Robb didn't dishonor the engagement by bedding another girl, he dishonored it by calling it off to do what he believed to be the right thing. Robb was naive sure, but he wasn't just some horny kid thinking with his dick. He was trying to show that his father had raised him to be an honorable man. My point was that he was thinking with his dick when he fell for the seduction in the first place, not when he decided to get hitched. But yeah your point is valid and it plays into the tragic angle that Farrier pointed out: Robb in the books was ultimately undone by trying to live up to the monolithic shadow of his father. In the show though Robb is a grown rear end man instead of a kid, and he pretty much is Ned 2.0 rather than a kid desperately trying to be Ned. This is shown most glaringly in the Karstark execution, where in the show Rob does it in one clean swing as an obvious parallel to Ned's execution of the NW deserter, but in the books it's instead a juxtaposition where Robb botches the execution horribly, requiring several swings to fully sever the head. Also Talisa isn't actively trying to seduce Robb, he falls for and beds her on his own initiative. Which makes him breaking his alliance with the Frey's less about honor and more about Robb pursuing love over politics, to the fatal detriment of his war effort. tl;dr book Robb is a pretty tragic figure, but show Robb is just a dipshit.
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Apr 17, 2019 21:08
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It's been explicitly stated in the books and series that magic had been forgotten, discounted or had been significantly weaker and that its return coincides with the comet, the White Walkers coming back and the three dragons hatching.
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Apr 17, 2019 21:09
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How much time has passed over the course of the show?
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Apr 17, 2019 21:12
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I'd assume GRRM differentiates between magic as in "people do spells and poo poo" and magic as in "it exists as a metaphysical idea of stuff happening in the world", like with that Warlock Dany found (I know, after the comet, but I guess he didn't become warlock in a day), or magical seasons or the wall being magically enchanted. Also, it's said that magic did not disappear, it just was very weak and didn't happen a lot until danaerys took a hot bath with some stones.
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Apr 17, 2019 21:15
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WHY BONER NOW posted:How much time has passed over the course of the show? They never explicitly say. Aside from the actors (especially the children) obviously aging the only clear signs of the passing of time are: Jaime and Cersei are said to be 40 a few seasons back Ned's remains are a chest of bones Sam says he and Jon have been at the wall "for years" Probably assume 1 year per season
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Apr 17, 2019 21:16
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It's explicitly stated that the warlocks had to rely on stuff like sleight of hand until the dragons were born and their real magic started working again. Magic being dead may have been the wrong term, more like dormant. But there was definitely very little of it until the dragons hatched and none to speak of in the 7 kingdoms.
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Apr 17, 2019 21:21
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Didn't Jon say he hadn't seen Arya in six years?
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Apr 17, 2019 21:21
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D-Pad posted:It's explicitly stated that the warlocks had to rely on stuff like sleight of hand until the dragons were born and their real magic started working again. Magic being dead may have been the wrong term, more like dormant. But there was definitely very little of it until the dragons hatched and none to speak of in the 7 kingdoms. Didn't Varys say the magic made with his severed dick worked? Can't remember.
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Apr 17, 2019 21:59
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Its Coke posted:Why is the Iron Bank still lending Cersei insane amounts of money even though she'll obviously never be able to pay any of it back 1. She used the money looted from Highgarden to pay them back. 2. They likely estimate that the Lannisters have the best chance of giving them returns on their investments. 3. The Iron Bank is an institution run by humans; humans can be dumb and throw good money after bad. 4. They likely want to find a way to recoup the money lost by Stannis. You make money by taking risk and siding with the army in power, I guess.
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Apr 17, 2019 22:02
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Darko posted:Didn't Varys say the magic made with his severed dick worked? Can't remember. Yeah, there was a "voice in the flames" or something like that, so magic was still around in some form but needed a lot of gas to get going. And even then I don't think he said what the spell was for, so it could have been something relatively small.
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Apr 17, 2019 22:05
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Given that magic still is inherently bound to the world, even if it's to a super small degree for humans until dragons happen, magic seasons seem completely fair either way. Also lol, completely forgot about Varys' dick. Dragons should never go away, so this is not necessary.
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Apr 17, 2019 22:10
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