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zapplez posted:Americans aren't "uniquely violent" but obviously there is a large societal difference in the country compared to other developed nations. Its pretty obvious the majority of murders aren't out of simple weapons convenience but from a larger,broader need from wealth inequality and the drug war. Yes, thank you for this extremely cold take. Obviously America has some unique factors that other countries don't have, but at the same time there are other countries that have crazy inequality and way less murdering happening just because it's hard to get a gun. Yes, if you really want to kill someone you can use a knife, but it's pretty hard to go on a knifing spree and kill 50 people. Yes, if you want to kill a lot of people at once, you can make a bomb, but it's hard to make a bomb and if you gently caress up while making it, then whoopsy! Yes, you could drive over a bunch of people with a van, but that only works if there's a large crowd outside, you can't cause a school shooting with a van. The sheer convenience and ease of using a gun to kill someone makes gun violence unique because it's so drat easy to just pull a trigger. That's why we focus on gun control so much, yes you're never going to stop murder from happening in society, but by removing access to guns you make murder harder to pull off (and more specifically mass murder, which is uniquely awful and leaves a collective scar on the morale of our nation), and that saves lives.
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Apr 16, 2019 12:46
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zapplez posted:Americans aren't "uniquely violent" but obviously there is a large societal difference in the country compared to other developed nations. Its pretty obvious the majority of murders aren't out of simple weapons convenience but from a larger,broader need from wealth inequality and the drug war. Yup. Coming back to "ideal solutions" the solution to me is to have a society where the desire/need for violence is so low everyone can own whatever weapons they want for entertainment because people don't use them in each other. Which coincidentally is exactly how my archery gear is treated even though it is originally invented with as much murderous purpose as any firearm.
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Apr 16, 2019 12:48
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AlexanderCA posted:Yup. Coming back to "ideal solutions" the solution to me is to have a society where the desire/need for violence is so low everyone can own whatever weapons they want for entertainment because people don't use them in each other. Which coincidentally is exactly how my archery gear is treated even though it is originally invented with as much murderous purpose as any firearm. You also can't mow down a classroom of children with a bow and arrow
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Apr 16, 2019 13:00
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:You also can't mow down a classroom of children with a bow and arrow the dumbest part of "we need to talk about kevin" is that being his method of carrying out his "school shooting". quote:A young girl has died after she was shot in the head accidentally by her four-year-old brother. https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-girl-dies-four-year-old-brother-accidentally-shoots-081023526.html what a stupid loving country this is.
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Apr 16, 2019 13:03
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AlexanderCA posted:Yup. Coming back to "ideal solutions" the solution to me is to have a society where the desire/need for violence is so low everyone can own whatever weapons they want for entertainment because people don't use them in each other.
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Apr 16, 2019 13:11
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Nevvy Z posted:Except children.
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Apr 16, 2019 13:15
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WampaLord posted:Yes, thank you for this extremely cold take. Obviously America has some unique factors that other countries don't have, but at the same time there are other countries that have crazy inequality and way less murdering happening just because it's hard to get a gun. There's also many countries with way less access to guns and much more homicides. Theres also countries with similar access to guns and way less homicides. Its a much more complicated issue then simply # of guns = # of homicides. Canada has a similar amount of gun availabity (% of houses with a firearm are relatively similiar to America) but has a fraction of the homicides. Canada also has much greater social supports, lower poverty, lower inequality, less serious drug war, less seriously gang problem, tougher gun laws, etc. Its many factors combined. You can look at Venezuela as a case study of as a society's wealth inequality and poverty expand rapidly, the same people with the same access to guns quickly increase in violence at a dramatic rate. The access to firearms in Venezuela is much smaller than the USA and they enacted tough firearms legislation within the past 10 years, but even with that their homicide rate is alarming because of the state of the society. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Apr 16, 2019 |
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Apr 16, 2019 14:33
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zapplez posted:Its a much more complicated issue then simply # of guns = # of homicides. No, it's not, at least not in the context of the gun debate. Turning this into "how do we stop all murder" is changing the topic drastically. We want to reduce gun violence specifically because it is the easiest type to perpetrate. You can see it in Australia. Knife violence didn't shoot up to match the reduction in gun violence, the amount of knife crime stayed the same while gun crimes dropped drastically. That is a good thing.
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Apr 16, 2019 14:42
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I know gun people like to compare the US to developing nations every few pages to imply that somehow Gun cannot fail, Gun can only be failed and the US is uniquely violent. But we know that gun prevalence ties in with increased violence and increased homicide. The US has a gun control problem. It has many other problems, but also a gun control problem.
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Apr 16, 2019 17:47
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They don't want to fix any of those other problems either. Or they "want to", we "just can't" "for reasons". "And if we don't fix them, obviously I need a gun to defend myself"
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Apr 16, 2019 18:18
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I just wanna bitch about NICS tbh. But gun people don't care and gun control people don't know what it is.
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Apr 16, 2019 18:40
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I just wanna bitch about NICS tbh. I know enough to get the gist, it's a huge pain in the rear end to deal with. I agree that while we still have legal gun ownership and our ridiculous interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, that we should probably streamline/fix/replace that system with something that is simpler and easier to deal with but also incorporates some background check elements. I don't think bureaucratic bullshit is stopping crazies from getting guns at the moment, it just gets in the way for legal owners. What do you think needs to happen specifically? I'll admit I barely know anything about the specifics of how it works currently.
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Apr 16, 2019 18:43
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WampaLord posted:What do you think needs to happen specifically? I'll admit I barely know anything about the specifics of how it works currently. The system can't work if agencies don't report to it in a timely manner, and few do. Because there is no additional funding for anyone to cover NICS reporting, and no actual consequences for reporting late or never. Last I checked even a bunch of federal agencies were years behind in their reporting requirements. That needs to be thoroughly unfucked with the addition of both funding and severe penalties for failure to comply. Linking compliance to something like federal highway funding or DOJ grants would be a good idea IMO. Opening the system to the public would also be good. Currently it requires an FFL number to use, which limits access to only licensed dealers and manufacturers. The reasoning for that is privacy, but NICS doesn't track anything that isn't already public record, and even then doesn't provide any information beyond Yes/No for guns. Opening the system to private transactions, even in a purely voluntary basis, would be great, and wouldn't even require legislation. I know I sure as hell would run a check on anyone I'm selling a gun to if I could.
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Apr 16, 2019 18:53
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how the gently caress does someone not get charged when they leave their loaded gun in the car with their kids and one shoots the other to death.
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Apr 16, 2019 19:10
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Groovelord Neato posted:how the gently caress does someone not get charged when they leave their loaded gun in the car with their kids and one shoots the other to death. Railroading some rude teens for misdemeanor possession is cheaper, quicker, and better for your career than being the guy who blew a ton of funding to convict a grieving parent.
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Apr 16, 2019 19:19
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AlexanderCA posted:Imperceivable, and yes you can put a price on that. We do it with everything. But good luck with your crusade, I think you'll get your background checks eventually with demographic change and we'll see if it makes any difference. I doubt it. https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1118464724058935297 But GoOd lUCK wiTH YOUr cRUsADE
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Apr 17, 2019 13:55
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WampaLord posted:https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1118464724058935297
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Apr 17, 2019 15:59
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WampaLord posted:https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1118464724058935297 found her: https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1118567711385239554
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Apr 17, 2019 20:21
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Huh, I guess we're exporting our crazies now. Naked loon with a gun is a Tuesday down here. Harden the gently caress up Colorado. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Apr 17, 2019 |
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Apr 17, 2019 20:31
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Like holy poo poo imagine just dropping that here and not bothering to point out it's Canadian teens, who don't live in fear of massacres, who aren't drilled on what to do in that situation like it's a fuckin fire because poo poo it could happen gotta be prepared, and pretending it's the same for teens around the world Lol "think of the children" is your argument. <.001% of american teens "live in fear of massacres." In fact I can only think of like 2 total, and one has gone full grifter.
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Apr 17, 2019 22:47
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Lol "think of the children" is your argument. <.001% of american teens "live in fear of massacres." In fact I can only think of like 2 total, and one has gone full grifter. the man on record as saying anyone who showed up to protest the alt-right at Charlottesville deserved to be beaten is here to school us on how the Teens of America think
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Apr 17, 2019 23:05
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Lol "think of the children" is your argument. <.001% of american teens "live in fear of massacres." In fact I can only think of like 2 total, and one has gone full grifter. Teens organized the third largest protest in US history with over a million people speaking out for gun control.
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Apr 17, 2019 23:57
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Unoriginal Name posted:Teens organized the third largest protest in US history with over a million people speaking out for gun control. Hrmmm. Did they? NPR:'March For Our Lives' Cost $5 Million; 'Several Million' Left For Lobbying posted:The March For Our Lives funding, according to organizers, came from crowdfunding and other donations — including from household name celebrities such as Oprah Winfrey and George Clooney. Who's on this board, I wonder? The teenagers? HuffingtonPost: Behind Millions Of Dollars Raised By Parkland Students, An Adult Board Of Directors posted:A board that includes six volunteer directors is overseeing all March for Our Lives funds, a spokesperson for 42 West told HuffPost in an email. Decisions on how to spend the funds will be up to that board and a “student advisory board,” the spokesperson said. When asked what sort of oversight mechanisms are set up to ensure the money is going to the students’ desired reforms, the spokesperson said, “The board of directors will handle.” I think the assertion that a group of teenagers raised the funds and organized those protests rests on extremely shaky ground. Even if they had, how does a group of teenagers accomplishing a difficult logistical feat lead to any sort of policy justification?
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Apr 18, 2019 05:45
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Lol "think of the children" is your argument. <.001% of american teens "live in fear of massacres." In fact I can only think of like 2 total, and one has gone full grifter. So do you have actual backing for this percentage or are you a creepy adult who knows 200,000 teens?
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Apr 18, 2019 08:10
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MixMastaTJ posted:So do you have actual backing for this percentage or are you a creepy adult who knows 200,000 teens? Parent of two high school teens here. They're a whole lot more worried about what their friends are posting on insta than they are about "getting slaughtered by assault weapons" or whatever moral panic you're trying to impose on them
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Apr 18, 2019 11:12
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Woah, 2 out of 2? That's like... 100%! Dang, the movement must all be crisis actors.
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Apr 18, 2019 11:25
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Woah, 2 out of 2? That's like... 100%! Dang, the movement must all be crisis actors. A grass roots movement led and bankrolled by Oprah Winfrey and George Clooney, two common folk you've never heard of. I didn't even say that gun violence isn't a problem. Fear of getting massacred at school ranks a lot higher in the imaginations of activists than in actual children's minds.
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Apr 18, 2019 11:54
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It's untenable to live in fear in general. It doesn't mean that an entire generation of teenagers isn't growing up concerned about school shootings. I can practically guarantee that every teenager has probably run through in their head: "What would I do if a shooter walked through my classroom door?" in some variation multiple times. Your kids too. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2018/stress-gen-z.pdf Let's not act like teenagers having planned escape routes and boltholes in their school, active shooter drills, and half-joking around about whether that one weird kid is just weird or if he's one bad day away from going postal isn't somehow insidious and a damning indictment on American society. Kids and teenagers shouldn't have to worry about these things. Half the point of schools is to provide a bubble where they are insulated from most of the horrible garbage in the world, and they are free to worry about inane poo poo like what their friends posted on insta. That is what we as a modern society strive to provide. School shootings are a gross violation of that, an invasion of that space, and one that that enabled by circumstances that are enabled by society's choices outside of schools that kids have zero influence over. Part of the tragedy of school shootings, as if dozens of dead children were not tragedy enough, is that schools over the last twenty years have progressively lost their illusory but highly important perception as a safe place that exists outside of society.
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Apr 18, 2019 11:55
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youre dick posted:Parent of two high school teens here. They're a whole lot more worried about what their friends are posting on insta than they are about "getting slaughtered by assault weapons" or whatever moral panic you're trying to impose on them youre dick posted:A grass roots movement led and bankrolled by Oprah Winfrey and George Clooney, two common folk you've never heard of. Or how about we look at some actual data instead of your anecdote https://news.gallup.com/poll/241625/parents-children-fearful-safety-school.aspx quote:35% of parents fear for child's safety at school, up from 24% in 2017  that seems like a bit more than .001% to me
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Apr 18, 2019 12:03
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"If the kids have time to enjoy anything they aren't really afraid so you can't touch my guns"
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Apr 18, 2019 14:10
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Someone post the kids and crew-served weapons image. I'm phone posting or I would.
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Apr 18, 2019 14:23
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where did the 'MKII' in the thread title come from? Ironically enough, that's one of the few guns we own.
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Apr 18, 2019 17:34
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youre dick posted:A grass roots movement led and bankrolled by Oprah Winfrey and George Clooney, two common folk you've never heard of. Good thing there are no wealthy powerful psychopaths bankrolling the NRA
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Apr 18, 2019 17:37
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Tim Raines IRL posted:where did the 'MKII' in the thread title come from? Ironically enough, that's one of the few guns we own. the thread title is a SMLE joke just like the SMLE was
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Apr 18, 2019 17:42
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It should be called the endless dunk thread. It’s dunks all the way down.
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Apr 18, 2019 20:10
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Kids are, statistically, safer from interpersonal violence today then they have been at any time in the last three decades. The fact that some of them are stressed out by the idea of dangerous but staggeringly unlikely events seems like an education problem, not a legal-access-to-guns problem. WampaLord posted:No, it's not, at least not in the context of the gun debate. Turning this into "how do we stop all murder" is changing the topic drastically. We want to reduce gun violence specifically because it is the easiest type to perpetrate. WampaLord posted:You can see it in Australia. Knife violence didn't shoot up to match the reduction in gun violence, the amount of knife crime stayed the same while gun crimes dropped drastically. That is a good thing. Rent-A-Cop posted:The reasoning for that is privacy, but NICS doesn't track anything that isn't already public record, and even then doesn't provide any information beyond Yes/No for guns. Unoriginal Name posted:Teens organized the third largest protest in US history with over a million people speaking out for gun control.
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Apr 19, 2019 03:39
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Dead Reckoning posted:The homicide rate in Australia was basically flat for a decade after confiscation. During the period after when it started to decline, the US actually experienced a larger drop in per capita homicides, despite the federal assault weapons ban sunsetting around that time.  I would like us to be down on the bottom right end of this chart one day, I don't care if it "was basically flat for a decade" (which seems like a very disingenuous way of framing this chart)
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Apr 19, 2019 03:43
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Dead Reckoning posted:Being involuntarily committed isn't a public record, at least in my state.
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Apr 19, 2019 03:44
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Dead Reckoning posted:Kids are, statistically, safer from interpersonal violence today then they have been at any time in the last three decades. The fact that some of them are stressed out by the idea of dangerous but staggeringly unlikely events seems like an education problem, not a legal-access-to-guns problem. Yeah it's an education problem that schools run drills for what to do if there's a shooting, because that's a possibility that schools and students in them have to consider you gun loving dipshit
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Apr 19, 2019 03:45
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Also the purpose of gun control is to reduce gun violence you loving cretin
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Apr 19, 2019 03:46
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