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Gonna need y'all Alberta goons' direction on where to work/volunteer in a few months to help channel all this angst. Federal election will not be fun.
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Apr 18, 2019 20:42
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cowofwar posted:They could have implemented electoral reform and everyone would have been better off in 2019 They could have, and they should have, but the UCP still would have won, and if you think repealing that wouldn't have been Bill 3, you're being hopelessly naive. Recall that Alberta used to use STV in the cities and IRV in rural areas, and it was scrapped by cons (SoCreds at the time) because
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Apr 18, 2019 20:44
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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THC posted:I've mentioned this before but during the Ontario election at one point Doug said he was afraid of an NDP government and Horwath's response was to say "oh no no, not at all, Ontarians have nothing to fear from us" and it was such garbage. Her response should have been: "yes Doug Ford you loving detestable sack of poo poo, you thug, you should be very afraid. We're coming for your poo poo." I'm convinced she would have won the election if she'd done that because most people actually do find Doug Ford disgusting. But she didn't do that because she's Andrea Horwath and she's been the leader of the ONDP since 2009, the era of toxic liberal That's not a message that would have resonated with any of the people I know who voted Tory, nor with most of the soft liberals the NDP needed to win. The left can't just magically summon an army of leftist voters out of the ether by ramping up its rhetoric. The way to win an election is to start organizing literally years beforehand and to organize people around more long term goals than just promoting the candidate.
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Apr 18, 2019 20:46
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seriously? liberals would sympathize with Doug Ford? these loving poeple
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Apr 18, 2019 20:53
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The Canadian middle class still has something to lose so when you start talking about taking away people's poo poo they are going to get nervous. The electoral path forward for the left is loving dire at the moment. It's part of why I think people need to be less fixated on elections and more concerned about movement building (as vague as that prescription is).
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Apr 18, 2019 21:03
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THC posted:seriously? liberals would sympathize with Doug Ford? these loving poeple The liberals who voted OLP in the face of a Ford led PC government (and the complete collapse of OLP in the polls) weren't going to vote NDP just because Horwath started cussing.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:05
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cowofwar posted:They could have implemented electoral reform and everyone would have been better off in 2019 They could have implemented pure PR and the UCP would still have won a majority government because they got 55% of the vote.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:06
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Electoral reform is one of those appealing ideas that, if anything, would probably backfire. If we had basically solved all our underlying problems with inequality and climate change then it would make sense to prioritize electoral reform but under present conditions it just seems like a recipe for further gridlock. Uncomfortable though it is to admit any hope for the future is going to rely on some degree of authoritarianism. Hopefully that can be done within a liberal pluralist cultural framework and through socialist economics rather than through a conservative reactionary cultural framework with liberal economics. Either way though any government serious about saving the human race is going to be taking some really unpopular decisions and it's pretty clear at this point the public at large is always going to opt for comforting myths over hard truths. The focus needs to be on building a movement to fight the status quo. The emphasis of electoral reform on making the systemic more democratic is deeply misplaced in a society where democracy is mostly just an opportunity for rich people to veto government policy. That isn't to say that we should be hoping for a dictatorship or abandon the idea of democratic decision making. But we need to be prioritizing bold and dramatic moves to deal with climate change and inequality and that would almost certainly be harder under a PR system.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:13
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Helsing posted:Electoral reform is one of those appealing ideas that, if anything, would probably backfire. If we had basically solved all our underlying problems with inequality and climate change then it would make sense to prioritize electoral reform but under present conditions it just seems like a recipe for further gridlock. thread over, everyone start taking your meds, goddamn jesus christ you are depressing as hell
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Apr 18, 2019 21:24
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Yeah people place way too much emphasis on ER imo
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Apr 18, 2019 21:27
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Arivia posted:thread over, everyone start taking your meds, goddamn jesus christ you are depressing as hell he's not wrong. majoritarian democracy is a bad system and its constantly failed us. it's weird that it's held up as some great and just system when it's a travesty.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:29
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THC posted:Yeah people place way too much emphasis on ER imo ER is absolutely critical and most of the problems in our political system derive from FPTP
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Apr 18, 2019 21:32
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Helsing posted:Electoral reform is one of those appealing ideas that, if anything, would probably backfire. If we had basically solved all our underlying problems with inequality and climate change then it would make sense to prioritize electoral reform but under present conditions it just seems like a recipe for further gridlock. well good thing trudeau completely killed any chance of electoral reform for the next 50 years then
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Apr 18, 2019 21:39
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Why would anyone want their vote to actually count for something? Fptp it is.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:41
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I can totally get behind an enviro-fascist government banning gas cars and gas electric plants and everything but let's be realistic here, barring a revolution that won't happen.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:41
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 Ontario https://twitter.com/joe_cressy/status/1118956838542819331 Hope you kids like dead people, because there's gonna be a lot more of them around
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Apr 18, 2019 22:04
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Doug Ford has continued his war on Book Learnin' with a 50% cut to libraries, because goddamn do the Fords ever hate books
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Apr 18, 2019 22:06
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I'd make an effort-post about the PEI election before it happens on Tuesday, but apart from the Greens who may win, it's been really boring. Maybe that's a welcome change from ON and AB. Also I'm sure no-one gives a gently caress.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:12
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"The Greens might win" isn't that boring!
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Apr 18, 2019 22:14
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infernal machines posted:
What a loving callous piece of poo poo. Die.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:15
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Dying not limited to humans. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-developers-fees-endangered-species-protect-1.5104278 quote:Ontario intends to allow municipalities and developers to pay a fee in lieu of taking certain actions to protect species at risk.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:16
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Syfe posted:Dying not limited to humans. Carbon Tax: bad. Species Tax: good. Neanderthal logic right there. Someone needs to burn down Queen's Park, preferrably with the gates sealed shut.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:20
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RBC posted:Doug Ford has continued his war on Book Learnin' with a 50% cut to libraries, because goddamn do the Fords ever hate books Mercifully it's "library services," which is short of the library system tout court.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:30
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Hand Knit posted:Mercifully it's "library services," which is short of the library system tout court. what?
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Apr 18, 2019 22:36
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RBC posted:what? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/ontario-library-service-funding-pc-doug-ford-1.5102406 quote:The northern and southern library services supports public libraries in a number of ways, from running the interlibrary loan and delivery program to offering training for library staff and volunteers. There are multiple moving parts to the library system. Southern/Northern Library Services are good, and do a lot to help smaller/rural libraries, but they are not coextensive with the whole library system.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:41
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Hand Knit posted:https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/ontario-library-service-funding-pc-doug-ford-1.5102406 It's a huge part of the system, the only cities that won't be affected by this are those with huge municipal funding like Toronto. That doesn't make it better, that makes it worse, he's loving over the backwater places with less access to the things libraries provide, the places that need it most.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:44
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Helsing posted:Electoral reform is one of those appealing ideas that, if anything, would probably backfire. If we had basically solved all our underlying problems with inequality and climate change then it would make sense to prioritize electoral reform but under present conditions it just seems like a recipe for further gridlock. I stand by my statement that whether or not we go left or right or do anything about climate change depends more on what happens in US politics than on anything we do independently as a nation. Trump's election has directly led to the gloves coming off in Canada and the racism coming out in broad daylight. If the left right spectrum was a straight line with the centre being 0 then Canada is 10% less right wing or left wing than whatever position the slider sits on in the USA. While Europe is maybe 20% more left wing regardless of what happens in the USA. I think whether or not a left wing movement truly rises up in Canada will be determined by how successful Bernie Sanders, AOC and the DSA are in moving American and the Democratic party to the left. The US economy and political influence is so large that what other nations try or do directly depends on their domestic policies. A strong economically left govt that can break through the barrier of Third-Way technocrats is the true ideological opponent the right wing needs right now. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Apr 18, 2019 |
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Apr 18, 2019 23:03
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Fart Amplifier posted:ER is absolutely critical and most of the problems in our political system derive from FPTP PR is not going to fix everything though, not even a large number of things would be fixed tbh. All else being equal, neoliberalism would continue to be the order of the day
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Apr 18, 2019 23:12
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THC posted:PR is not going to fix everything though, not even a large number of things would be fixed tbh. All else being equal, neoliberalism would continue to be the order of the day Case in point - the European governments.
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Apr 18, 2019 23:32
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this is why i get really annoyed at people whose first and foremost criticism of justin trudeau is the electoral reform thing. more often than not they can't even think of anything else.
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Apr 19, 2019 00:12
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THC posted:this is why i get really annoyed at people whose first and foremost criticism of justin trudeau is the electoral reform thing. more often than not they can't even think of anything else. It's not my foremost criticism, but ER was really the only reason I had to be happy when JT won (that and the Conservatives no longer being in power). So it makes sense from that perspective.
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Apr 19, 2019 00:52
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The failure of our elected representatives to respond to climate change in any kind of meaningful way (i.e. by significantly reducing emissions) is what future generations will pity us for, you know, if anyone survives our sleepwalk into heat death.
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Apr 19, 2019 01:23
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There isn't one weird trick to foil capitalism, centrism, etc. It takes a lot of work because it's a long struggle against decades and centuries of work they've done to put us here in this spot. This is why betting on electoral reform to fix things is a mistake. It'd be a step in the right direction but there's no one weird trick to it.
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Apr 19, 2019 02:26
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k done moping. If things are that bad in your guys opinion, then we got better things to do then tell sad stories about the death of kings. So to begin with here come the links. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/next-year-not-good-election-manitoba-2020-party-brian-pallister-1.5103791 https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/corbella-politics-of-fear-backfired-on-notley-and-will-backfire-on-trudeau-too https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/bill-21-toronto-stands-beside-montreal-in-opposition-to-proposed-secularism-law https://globalnews.ca/news/5178370/refugee-claimant-complicit-isis-crimes-against-humanity-tribunal/ https://calgaryherald.com/business/local-business/ucps-pledge-to-kill-off-energy-efficiency-alberta-will-threaten-jobs-businesses-warn https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/art-gallery-halifax-waterfront-1.5101521
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Apr 19, 2019 02:38
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The PEI Greens seem to be doing the failed NDP playbook of "lets timidly move to the centre and maybe we'll accidentally win" but it's actually working out for them.
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Apr 19, 2019 03:02
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infernal machines posted:
Ontario loving sucks. Is this going to be worse than the harris government
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Apr 19, 2019 04:43
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vyelkin posted:I find it very interesting that you read "around 2000 the line starts to slide and by 2009 college students are 40% less empathetic than previous generations" and your response is "so much for the tolerant left" instead of "this is the result of a generation being raised by extreme individualistic capitalism". Students between 2000 and 2009 aren't even old enough to have grown up on social media (reminder that Facebook didn't even exist until 2004 and wasn't public until 2006, which is the same year Twitter launched) so you can't blame it on that. Instead, that's the generation born in the 80s and 90s under Reagan and Thatcher and Clinton and Blair and, in Canada, Mulroney/Chretien, who grew up being told that there's no such thing as society and greed is good and the only thing that matters is making as much money as possible and gently caress everybody else. The "tolerant left" thing was a joke - I think most of the blame falls on the right, particularly the post-9/11 neoconservative ascendancy and the tea party movement. The combination of "gently caress the Other" and the lost sense of "we're all on the same side here" hit their stride there. The timeline really suggests to me that the first class to enter university after the Bush/Gore election "fun" had a little less generalized kumbaya, and that 9/11 did nothing help the cause. Simultaneously, the internet had established enough reach that people really could start doing the "news from sources slanted my way" thing and kick off their own version of the two solitudes. The pre-social media blogosphere was rather superior (<-- understatement) to what replaced it insofar as political idiocy stayed on the political ones and uninformed comment was both a minority because people had to seek the content out themselves, it wasn't pushed at them, and also completely ignored. Fox News hadn't really hit its stride until the early 2000s... Rush Limbaugh had taken over talk radio in the 90s, but that's simply not what the kids are/were listening to, though they would presumably get a bit second hand from their parents. I don't think it's reasonable to blame Reagan/Thatcher/Mulroney for a change that began to occur a solid decade after they left power. The experience/upbringing of people who were ten years old in 1990 and people who were eight years old was not materially different, yet the change begins to hit the eight year olds (when they arrive in college at 18) and grows from there. That smells more like a reaction to the coinciding events I mention above and the changes in society that followed... Not something that festered silently for a decade before abruptly metastasizing. Toalpaz posted:Re:end of the empathy You're right, that *is* where that one came from. I have those turned off on most (but not all) computers I use, and I do click the odd story on the one that still has it.
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Apr 19, 2019 13:04
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Femtosecond posted:The PEI Greens seem to be doing the failed NDP playbook of "lets timidly move to the centre and maybe we'll accidentally win" but it's actually working out for them. Weren't Greens centrist to begin with? Maybe there's a lesson about a party being true to their membership
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Apr 19, 2019 13:28
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James Baud posted:I don't think it's reasonable to blame Reagan/Thatcher/Mulroney for a change that began to occur a solid decade after they left power. The experience/upbringing of people who were ten years old in 1990 and people who were eight years old was not materially different, yet the change begins to hit the eight year olds (when they arrive in college at 18) and grows from there. That smells more like a reaction to the coinciding events I mention above and the changes in society that followed... Not something that festered silently for a decade before abruptly metastasizing. It's not that the change is entirely attributable to a few national leaders, it's that those leaders and their time periods coincided with, and helped cause/accelerate, a major cultural shift towards greater individualism in our economy, society, culture, politics, across our entire civilization pretty much. And you can't narrow this down to just their years in power, either, both because culture doesn't change overnight (and therefore the changes they helped initiate or accelerate continued long after they left office), and because the leaders that followed them (like Clinton, Blair, or Chretien) tended to continue the trend of individualism, as did the rest of our culture. Second, if you actually click through to the article from Personality and Social Psychology Review, you'll find the actual data, including these graphs:   which shows that although the trend accelerates after 2000, over the entire time period of the study (1979-2009) the decline begins in the 90s (and is measured in averaged 5- or 10-year periods rather than specifically year-by-year), so it isn't like somebody just flipped a switch in the year 2000 and people started getting less empathetic, this is a gradual process that accelerates around the year 2000, when suddenly every college student has grown up in the time period completely dominated by neoliberal individualism (and then, as you mention, events like 9/11 and the overwhelming advance of the national security state probably accelerate these trends). For the sake of completeness and citing my sources, the actual article also includes this passage: quote:Time Period. As there were only seven samples collected before 1990, we also ran the regression analysis for samples collected from 1990 to 2009. The results were similar. There remained a negative correlation between year of data collection and EC ( –.50, p .001, k 61, d 0.95) and PT ( –.24, p .075, k 57, d 0.40). FS ( –.24, p .18, k 32, d 0.26) and PD remained nonsignificant ( –.06, p .73, k 41, d 0.14). We next split our data set into two time periods to examine whether the decreases in empathy were specific to more recent time periods. When the analysis was restricted to the years 1979 to 1999, we no longer found changes in any of the IRI subscales: EC ( .16, p .43, k 26, d –0.12), PT ( –.11, p .59, k 26, d 0.13), FS ( .22, p .37, k 18, d –0.10), and PD ( .09, p .71, k 21, d –0.09). When examining changes in the IRI between 2000 and 2009, however, we found that the declines were most pronounced for EC ( –.44, p .004, k 40, d 0.83) and PT ( –.31, p .06, k 38, d 0.55). The changes in FS ( –.16, p .52, k 19, d 0.21) and PD ( –.28, p .19, k 24, d 0.82) were again nonsignificant. Taken together, this analysis suggests that empathy has been decreasing in college students primarily since 2000. But I disagree with the way they structured that analysis. Since both the major trends they discuss (as seen in the graphs above) show a peak and then a decline at some point in the 90s, I don't think it's really appropriate to separate the trends into 1979-99 and 2000-09 and then conclude that there was no change in the first time period, given that the 1979-99 data would show a peak and then decline back to 70s levels on one indicator and a minor decline on the other, preceding the larger decline into the 2000s. And when they run the data starting in the 90s, they find the same results. So I'm not certain that that's really an argument for the decline beginning in 2000, rather than that being an acceleration of an already-occurring trend. vyelkin fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 13:40
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If people are less empathetic now why were they such huge assholes in the 80s?
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Apr 19, 2019 13:50
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