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Godammit, Colita is so delicious. Those arepas could use a little fattening, in my opinion, but they look good, as do the empanadas.
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Apr 19, 2019 06:26
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I think there could be less weird talking past each other if everyone was a little more precise. I understand responding to blanket statements, so maybe try to avoid those. "<x> is happening because of <y>" could work better for whatever point it's working towards if it was more specific. Such as: "<x> is the primary cause of <y>", or "<y> is contributing to <x> more than other factors", or even "<y> isn't getting enough attention for it's effects on <x>." It's kinda fiddly but there seems like it could avoid frustrating misunderstandings.
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Apr 19, 2019 16:04
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I don't think anyone is misunderstanding anything; people have been fairly clear on their positions. The disagreements are coming from fundamental differences in how people are interpreting the economic and political turmoil that Venuzula is experiencing.
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Apr 19, 2019 16:14
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Unfucking real report from the NYT on the start of Red Cross aid delivery:quote:When a convoy of Red Cross trucks pulled up on a busy avenue in downtown Caracas to distribute water buckets and water-treatment pills to residents, it was surrounded by armed pro-government paramilitaries, who fired into the air to disrupt the delivery. And now you're seeing why Maduro denied aid so long, because they don't get a cut of free, life-saving stuff! So if this is what is happening with loving WATER aid, what is going to happen when they want to start distributing food and medicine without kickbacks?
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Apr 19, 2019 16:43
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Private Witt posted:Unfucking real report from the NYT on the start of Red Cross aid delivery: This will all be sold at a massive premium or utilized to keep the security forced loyal as long as possible. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 17:20
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Speaking of water, a story from last week that does a deep dive into why Caracas is facing a water shortage. It is in Spanish: http://factor.prodavinci.com/porquenohayaguaencaracas/index.html Water to the capital was 20,000 liters per second when Chavez took over, and as of 2019 is down to 6,000 liters per second. A Tuy IV system designed to solve the decrease in water supply -which was promised by Chavez (and then Maduro) to be completed in 2005, and then 2010, and then 2015, and then 2016, etc. etc. - is still not anywhere close to completed. But even much of that lowered water supply to Caracas is reliant upon electricity, which is obviously unreliable right now, meaning water goes off with the electricity. The article also discusses the extortion prices that people have to pay for access to water (much of this being controlled by the military). This has led to a boom in well digging, as the WSJ touched on in a recent article about a different area of Venezuela also facing water shortage. Keeshhound posted:The disagreements are coming from fundamental differences in how people are interpreting the economic and political turmoil that Venuzula is experiencing. To stick with facts, you have a "government" that: -Cannot adequately deliver water -Cannot adequately deliver electricity -Cannot adequately deliver education -Cannot adequately deliver health services -Cannot adequately deliver food -Cannot adequately deliver security -Cannot adequately deliver anything except the millions of refugees who have fled into other countries, creating one of history's worst diasporas -Refused up until a month ago to bring in aid to fix any of this, which was a violation of the Geneva convention -All of this nonsense is propped up by countries like China and Russia and Cuba who basically just take their oil, in what is a shining example of godawful imperialism -The" government" that is propped up has dismantled the democracy into a dictatorship in order to remain in power. -The "government" has stolen billions of dollars from the country, created a new class of ultra wealthy, many of whom ship this money abroad to places like Panama, the US, and Switzerland And this says nothing of the drug empire that has been built in the top ranks of the government and military. And yet people defend it, because they think that the true imperialism isn't this faux government that exists to exploit the people of Venezuela that is propped up by autocratic regimes, nope, instead the true "imperialists" are the dozens of free countries around the world that are the trying to have free & fair elections. The people on the other "side" are basically misinformed morons who can't recognize that what they claim to despise has already happened. These people rely upon faulty information from other morons, and constantly spam that faulty bullshit into the thread over and over as if mere repetition makes it reality.
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Apr 19, 2019 18:57
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Private Witt posted:And yet people defend it, because they think that the true imperialism isn't this faux government that exists to exploit the people of Venezuela that is propped up by autocratic regimes, nope, instead the true "imperialists" are the dozens of free countries around the world that are the trying to have free & fair elections. My aim is not to defend the Maduro regime in itself, I recognize it's bad, I just think the opposition is going to be worse. But anyway while it is difficult to get an accurate account of what has happened in Venezuela as every report coming out of it is from someone with an agenda and verifying anything is difficult especially as a non-Spanish speaking foreigner, there is evidence out the wazzoo available that the leading nations of the west, which all others are compelled to follow, are brutal imperialists, especially the US, and also that they are not democratic or free, especially the US.
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Apr 19, 2019 19:50
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Zidrooner posted:My aim is not to defend the Maduro regime in itself, I recognize it's bad, I just think the opposition is going to be worse. But anyway while it is difficult to get an accurate account of what has happened in Venezuela as every report coming out of it is from someone with an agenda and verifying anything is difficult especially as a non-Spanish speaking foreigner, there is evidence out the wazzoo available that the leading nations of the west, which all others are compelled to follow, are brutal imperialists, especially the US, and also that they are not democratic or free, especially the US. The fact that the opposition made every attempt to legally take power and time after time the rules were changed and the finish line moved time after time tells a different story. If the opposition was deadset on a brutal -insert fascist tragedy here- they would have done so at the height of their popularity. That part of the story has nothing to do with the US. The opposition has no choice other than to seek foreign intervention because all domestic options have been exhausted by brutal repression of dissent. Killing or arresting leaders and starving the populace forced the opposition to seek help.
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Apr 19, 2019 21:27
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Thinking Guaido & western imperialism are poo poo doesn't actually imply thinking that Maduro is good.
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Apr 19, 2019 22:47
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Zidrooner posted:My aim is not to defend the Maduro regime in itself, I recognize it's bad, I just think the opposition is going to be worse. I don't know how you can agree with that list of ways in which Venezuela has gone to utter poo poo and have any sort of certainty that the opposition would be worse. The country is already in a worse state than any other country on the planet, maybe excluding Syria. Like yeah the opposition might privatize poo poo or take out IMF loans or sell off some state oil assets (the PSUV isn't shy about doing that last one themselves, but I guess it doesn't count if they're selling them to anti-imperialist powers such as... Russia or China...), but does the abstract ideological battle over that poo poo really matter more to you than the concrete wellbeing of Venezuelans? Or do you, for some reason, assume that the opposition would be even more tragically incompetent than the PSUV? I don't see what could possibly lead you to believe that, given that a random selection of middle schoolers could probably run the country better....
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Apr 19, 2019 23:22
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Private Witt posted:The people on the other "side" are basically misinformed morons who can't recognize that what they claim to despise has already happened. These people rely upon faulty information from other morons, and constantly spam that faulty bullshit into the thread over and over as if mere repetition makes it reality. So what, do you think, the U.S. and the rest of the developed world should be doing to help the situation? Gnumonic posted:Or do you, for some reason, assume that the opposition would be even more tragically incompetent than the PSUV? I don't see what could possibly lead you to believe that, given that a random selection of middle schoolers could probably run the country better.... The past several decades of U.S.-Latin American relations suggest that the opposition could easily be worse than the PSUV.
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Apr 19, 2019 23:23
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Majorian posted:
Nothing I said had anything at all to do with the United States. Your implication that the opposition is a puppet of the US is total bullshit, unless you're so deluded that you think that only someone brainwashed by the US would oppose a government that cannot keep its people alive, and your sentence makes no sense at all if you aren't implying that. Edit: And, moreover, the conditions in the country are basically genocide-level bad. I guess maybe it would be worse in some abstract sense for a government to be intentionally killing its people, as opposed to it just being the result of incompetence, but that's the only way things could possibly be worse. Gnumonic fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 23:46
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Gnumonic posted:Nothing I said had anything at all to do with the United States. Your implication that the opposition is a puppet of the US is total bullshit, unless you're so deluded that you think that only someone brainwashed by the US would oppose a government that cannot keep its people alive, and your sentence makes no sense at all if you aren't implying that. An implication that is well-supported by history and contemporary events.
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Apr 19, 2019 23:49
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Syenite posted:An implication that is well-supported by history and contemporary events. You seriously think that only reason someone might oppose Maduro is due to US brainwashing? Like, seriously? You actually believe that?
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Apr 19, 2019 23:51
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Gnumonic posted:You seriously think that only reason someone might oppose Maduro is due to US brainwashing? Like, seriously? You actually believe that? No, Maduro is poo poo and needs to go, so clearly there are a lot of reasons for folks (myself included) to oppose him. That doesn't change the fact that Guaido is a lapdog for western imperialists. Syenite fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 23:53
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Syenite posted:That doesn't change the fact that Guaido is a lapdog for western imperialists. This is not a fact in Venezuela. Are you maybe talking about some unrelated guy named Guaido you knew in high school or something?
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Apr 19, 2019 23:56
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Gnumonic posted:Nothing I said had anything at all to do with the United States. Your implication that the opposition is a puppet of the US is total bullshit, unless you're so deluded that you think that only someone brainwashed by the US would oppose a government that cannot keep its people alive, and your sentence makes no sense at all if you aren't implying that. Uhh there are many countries where hunger is far worse then Venezuela, you just need to look at UN reports.
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Apr 20, 2019 00:13
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Presenting Nipples posted:Uhh there are many countries where hunger is far worse then Venezuela, you just need to look at UN reports. Venezuela isn't in the reports because the UN doesn't have enough data (same with North Korea). (Source)
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Apr 20, 2019 00:27
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How is Guaido who colaborated with the US on a plan to oust Maduro NOT a puppet? How am I supposed to take seriously the idea that his actions will lead to an improvement in the well-being of Venezuelans when he has already praised the US sanctions, something that is concretely making their lives worse right now, and has advocated military intervention in his own country, it doesn't seem like he actually cares about the people at all. People have called Trump a Russian puppet for far far less. He aligns himself with the butcher of Latin America, Elliott god drat Abrams, you know what this guy did right? And no, foreign intervention isn't an absolute necessity, no foreign power will intervene out of the goodness of their hearts to help the poor starving people being robbed, how naive are you? The US has literally installed multiple dictators, kings and theocrats who have done exactly that, got rich and left the vast majority to live in extreme poverty.
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Apr 20, 2019 00:46
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Zidrooner posted:How is Guaido who colaborated with the US on a plan to oust Maduro NOT a puppet? Because Venezuelans are real people, not robots.
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Apr 20, 2019 00:48
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Zidrooner posted:How is Guaido who colaborated with the US on a plan to oust Maduro NOT a puppet? How am I supposed to take seriously the idea that his actions will lead to an improvement in the well-being of Venezuelans when he has already praised the US sanctions, something that is concretely making their lives worse right now, and has advocated military intervention in his own country, it doesn't seem like he actually cares about the people at all. People have called Trump a Russian puppet for far far less. He aligns himself with the butcher of Latin America, Elliott god drat Abrams, you know what this guy did right? And no, foreign intervention isn't an absolute necessity, no foreign power will intervene out of the goodness of their hearts to help the poor starving people being robbed, how naive are you? The US has literally installed multiple dictators, kings and theocrats who have done exactly that, got rich and left the vast majority to live in extreme poverty. e: too personal. sorry When you have a choice between a guy who may be bad, and a guy who is undeniably bad and is loving poo poo up right now, you go with the first option. Because you don't have any other choice. Gervasius fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Apr 20, 2019 |
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Apr 20, 2019 00:56
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Gervasius posted:This right here shows how you americans never actually felt anything approaching actual oppression or authoritarianism - when you have a choice between a guy who may be bad, and a guy who is undeniably bad and is loving poo poo up right now, you go with the first option. Because you don't have any other choice. I'm Romanian, and I think Ceaușescu was undeniably bad too and while I was only born a bit after his execution and haven't experienced the regime personally, a LOT of people who did feel they were better off during his reign.
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Apr 20, 2019 01:03
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I haven't been delighted with all of Guaido's actions after the initial declaration fell through. On the other hand, he's not the only person in the opposition, he's just the highest up who until recently hadn't been some combination of jailed, killed, or disqualified. If we (for the sake of argument; please do not flip out fishmech et am) assume Guaido is a US puppet and would be a terrible president, it does not follow that the entire opposition project should be tossed in the garbage can.
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Apr 20, 2019 01:07
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Zidrooner posted:I'm Romanian, and I think Ceaușescu was undeniably bad too and while I was only born a bit after his execution and haven't experienced the regime personally, a LOT of people who did feel they were better off during his reign. No wonder, there are people that claim the same about Pinochet. And you could rightfully tell them to gently caress off and die. GreyjoyBastard posted:I haven't been delighted with all of Guaido's actions after the initial declaration fell through. Precisely this. I'm far from a fan of Guaido and people who support him, but he's pretty much only choice to remove PSUV kleptocracy from power right now and could actually push things towards actual democratic elections. Gervasius fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Apr 20, 2019 |
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Apr 20, 2019 01:08
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I haven't been delighted with all of Guaido's actions after the initial declaration fell through. Of course not, there are plenty of opposition folks who are Not Guaido, and we should endeavor to support them (and the opposition in general).
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Apr 20, 2019 01:13
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Gervasius posted:No wonder, there are people that claim the same about Pinochet. And you could rightfully tell them to gently caress off and die. At one point there was a problem with old people dying in their apartments frozen to death because they couldn't pay for heating (still is in rural areas I think), and I assume not all of them did so while thinking "at least I'm not being oppressed by communism anymore", so I guess you can be happy to hear some of the targets of your ire have done exactly that, because the new system has given them no other choice.
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Apr 20, 2019 01:20
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Presenting Nipples posted:Uhh there are many countries where hunger is far worse then Venezuela, you just need to look at UN reports. Are there a lot of countries where in the biggest metropolitian cities they have, you have people resorting to drinking sewage water on a regular basis? I can't think of many capital cities in which the people can't have access to fresh water.
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Apr 20, 2019 01:23
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Zidrooner posted:At one point there was a problem with old people dying in their apartments frozen to death because they couldn't pay for heating (still is in rural areas I think), and I assume not all of them did so while thinking "at least I'm not being oppressed by communism anymore", so I guess you can be happy to hear some of the targets of your ire have done exactly that, because the new system has given them no other choice. And guess who's dying right now because they can't afford food right now because right-wing kleptocracy decided to wreck their own economy to make themselves filthy rich?
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Apr 20, 2019 01:30
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Gervasius posted:And guess who's dying right now because they can't afford food right now because right-wing kleptocracy decided to wreck their own economy to make themselves filthy rich? There is a large number of correct answers to this question
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Apr 20, 2019 01:39
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zapplez posted:Are there a lot of countries where in the biggest metropolitian cities they have, you have people resorting to drinking sewage water on a regular basis? Detroit
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Apr 20, 2019 01:47
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Gervasius posted:And guess who's dying right now because they can't afford food right now because right-wing kleptocracy decided to wreck their own economy to make themselves filthy rich? I have very bad news for you about the list of countries the US Special Envoy to Venezuela has "helped" over the past forty years
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Apr 20, 2019 02:00
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brugroffil posted:There is a large number of correct answers to this question Including Venezuela, arguably.
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Apr 20, 2019 02:05
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Presenting Nipples posted:Detroit I know you think you are super clever but people in Venezuela would literally kill for a chance to get unlimited pathogen safe but lead found water like Detroit has last year. Comparing the situation in VZ to the USA makes me realize you have no idea how bad it is there right now.
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Apr 20, 2019 02:37
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fishmech posted:Because Venezuelans are real people, not robots. Right, but he clearly is one. Edit: People in Venezuela would love to get lead poisoning.
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Apr 20, 2019 04:36
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Presenting Nipples posted:Detroit Detroit is neither a capital city nor has undrinkable water, you're thinking of Flint. You really need to start fact-checking your burns before you make them because you're 0/2 on this page alone.
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Apr 20, 2019 04:40
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Presenting Nipples posted:Detroit This is about as on point as your UN comment earlier. Is this just a thread where unsubstantiated shitposting is encouraged now?
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Apr 20, 2019 06:42
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Gervasius posted:e: too personal. sorry It's strange to see posts like this that use logic that explicitly could be used to support literally every single harmful regime change that has ever occurred. It turns out that if your standards for supporting regime change are "the current leader is corrupt" you can conveniently argue in favor of regime change for pretty much every single country on the planet. I'm sure you would argue "but things are literally as bad as they can possibly be!" but there is no actual reliable evidence this is the case* (and the fact that violence against the government - and from the government - has been as comparatively low as it has implies that it isn't literally a "people starving to death en masse" situation). It is actually entirely possibly for things to be considerably worse. Like along the lines of actual death squads, etc. Maduro's government is pretty far from as bad as an "authoritarian regime" can get. In the case of Guaido specifically, the guy would end up supporting austerity measures and policies that "open the country to foreign investment." That is why he has the support of the US; it is pretty much always what US-supported leaders do. In other words he'd just make it easier for foreign corporations to siphon wealth from the country in the same way they do the rest of the global south. It should raise a red flag that Guaido offers no actual solutions to the issues that lead to Venezuela's current crisis, and "Maduro and other government officials stealing money" is really drat low on the list of those issues. The only thing that could even potentially be considered a sorta-solution is eliminating price controls, and that wouldn't help the poor. The one thing that is absolutely indefensible, regardless of one's feelings about opposition groups, is support for foreign intervention, including sanctions. If you want the Venezuelan opposition to succeed, fine - but the US (and other nations) should have no part in it. * I think this is probably the biggest thing that makes communication on this topic impossible. There is no source of information about the broader situation that isn't propaganda, but one side of this argument is basically taking US and opposition propaganda at face value, and there's not really much anyone can do if that's the case (since they're basically operating in a different reality). The extent to our knowledge of the situation is basically "things are some degree of bad" and information about what individual protests and violence end up occurring (which is really comparatively little, at least given the "people starving to death in the streets and drinking sewage en masse" narrative). But broader statistics and what have you are not reliable, and I think this is difficult for many people who are used to reliable (or at least semi-reliable) information always being one Google search away to comprehend. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Apr 20, 2019 |
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Apr 20, 2019 07:49
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Ytlaya posted:* I think this is probably the biggest thing that makes communication on this topic impossible. There is no source of information about the broader situation that isn't propaganda, but one side of this argument is basically taking US and opposition propaganda at face value, and there's not really much anyone can do if that's the case (since they're basically operating in a different reality). The extent to our knowledge of the situation is basically "things are some degree of bad" and information about what individual protests and violence end up occurring (which is really comparatively little, at least given the "people starving to death in the streets and drinking sewage en masse" narrative). But broader statistics and what have you are not reliable, and I think this is difficult for many people who are used to reliable (or at least semi-reliable) information always being one Google search away to comprehend. Now that the Maduro government can no longer plausibly lie about economic statistics and claim everything is fine, we are in a post-fact environment where we really can't know anything about Venezuela and maybe everything is in fact fine? No. I would assert that semi-reliable information might be available in, say, 2016, and it's not particularly complimentary towards the PSUV, and it might suggest the Then Not Quite Illegally Disbanded MUD might be an alternative. (edited to mitigate abrasiveness) Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Apr 20, 2019 |
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Apr 20, 2019 07:58
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Ytlaya posted:The one thing that is absolutely indefensible, regardless of one's feelings about opposition groups, is support for foreign intervention, including sanctions. If you want the Venezuelan opposition to succeed, fine - but the US (and other nations) should have no part in it. The Maduro regime's occupation of the Venezuelan government would not be possible were it not for Cuban, Russian, and Chinese support. What you really mean is "Venezuela should continue to be the plaything of any country that is suitably anti-U.S., even at the cost of the end of democracy and mass starvation." Don't pretend to be against "foreign intervention."
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Apr 20, 2019 07:59
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M. Discordia posted:The Maduro regime's occupation of the Venezuelan government would not be possible were it not for Cuban, Russian, and Chinese support. What you really mean is "Venezuela should continue to be the plaything of any country that is suitably anti-U.S., even at the cost of the end of democracy and mass starvation." Don't pretend to be against "foreign intervention." How does foreign intervention do anything to not make things worse? It sounds undemocratic to me, and foreign intervention in South America has a pretty concerning track record.
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Apr 20, 2019 08:13
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