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pretty much every large drug store in the country carries homeopathic poo poo, it's a nationwide problem. Even buying something as simple as cough drops you'll find some with homeopathic dose labels Likewise, supplements, which are about as bad when it comes to quackery
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Apr 21, 2019 22:23
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It's also in the baby medicine sections. 
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Apr 21, 2019 23:10
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This is pretty far off-topic, but can someone explain how homeopathic bullshit became so widespread and acceptable? It's demonstrably worthless and makes claims which can potentially encourage people to choose it over treatments that are actually safe and effective. It seems like an absolutely massive regulatory failure.
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Apr 21, 2019 23:17
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because a certain senator got homeopathic products to be exempt from the fda when they created the fda
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Apr 21, 2019 23:19
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Paradoxish posted:This is pretty far off-topic, but can someone explain how homeopathic bullshit became so widespread and acceptable? It's demonstrably worthless and makes claims which can potentially encourage people to choose it over treatments that are actually safe and effective. It seems like an absolutely massive regulatory failure. There's tons of things like this? People are larded up with cognitive biases. Anti-Vax, Veganism, Reflexology, Chiropractic, Acupuncture, Christianity.
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Apr 21, 2019 23:20
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Religion has numerous benefits actually.
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Apr 21, 2019 23:26
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Religion has numerous benefits actually. So does taking a sugar pill if you believe it will make you better.
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Apr 21, 2019 23:27
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Paradoxish posted:This is pretty far off-topic, but can someone explain how homeopathic bullshit became so widespread and acceptable? It's demonstrably worthless and makes claims which can potentially encourage people to choose it over treatments that are actually safe and effective. It seems like an absolutely massive regulatory failure.
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Apr 21, 2019 23:39
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Celexi posted:I have seen those homeopathic remedies in california in every grocery store I been to, it's a thing here. Paradoxish posted:This is pretty far off-topic, but can someone explain how homeopathic bullshit became so widespread and acceptable? It's demonstrably worthless and makes claims which can potentially encourage people to choose it over treatments that are actually safe and effective. It seems like an absolutely massive regulatory failure.
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Apr 22, 2019 00:29
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Also the placebo effect is very powerful.
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Apr 22, 2019 02:01
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Yeah, guys, I get why homeopathic stuff is sold and why people buy it. The point I was getting at is that it's a massive regulatory failure to allow its sale given that it's often marketed as something with clinical benefits for real conditions. That's without even getting into the fact that some homeopathic products actually do contain measurable quantities of substances besides water.
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Apr 22, 2019 02:09
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like I mentioned, it was due to some senator lobbying for homeopathic exceptions on fda's creation or something, the FDA can't do anything that is homeopathic as the law prevents it, and yes the law should be changed.
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Apr 22, 2019 02:12
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, guys, I get why homeopathic stuff is sold and why people buy it. The point I was getting at is that it's a massive regulatory failure to allow its sale given that it's often marketed as something with clinical benefits for real conditions. That's without even getting into the fact that some homeopathic products actually do contain measurable quantities of substances besides water. You think that's bad, the UK had government funded homeopathic "medicine" and "hospitals" until the early 2010s.
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Apr 22, 2019 02:17
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, guys, I get why homeopathic stuff is sold and why people buy it. The point I was getting at is that it's a massive regulatory failure to allow its sale given that it's often marketed as something with clinical benefits for real conditions. That's without even getting into the fact that some homeopathic products actually do contain measurable quantities of substances besides water. All it would take is a clear warning that says "This product has undergone no formal testing and has never been proven to work", but who cares if useless shite is sold to customers so long as someone makes money.
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Apr 22, 2019 02:45
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Celexi posted:because a certain senator got homeopathic products to be exempt from the fda when they created the fda Orrin Hatch, if I'm not mistaken. Also I got him confused with another guy who turned blue from taking colloidal silver when I went to look him up and the very first google result is from PUREST COLLOIDS claiming the whole thing was a media smear job. Gee thanks, algorithms 
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Apr 22, 2019 04:15
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Great Metal Jesus posted:Orrin Hatch, if I'm not mistaken. Also I got him confused with another guy who turned blue from taking colloidal silver when I went to look him up and the very first google result is from PUREST COLLOIDS claiming the whole thing was a media smear job. Gee thanks, algorithms Royal Copeland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_S._Copeland
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Apr 22, 2019 04:21
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Celexi posted:Royal Copeland Man, I had no idea it went back this far. I was thinking of Hatch's 1994 act that gutted regulations of supplements.
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Apr 22, 2019 04:36
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Paradoxish posted:This is pretty far off-topic, but can someone explain how homeopathic bullshit became so widespread and acceptable? It's demonstrably worthless and makes claims which can potentially encourage people to choose it over treatments that are actually safe and effective. It seems like an absolutely massive regulatory failure. in the grand scheme of things homeopathy has been around for millenia and it took well into the 1900s for widespread eclectical medicine to be stopped
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Apr 22, 2019 04:50
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:in the grand scheme of things homeopathy has been around for millenia and it took well into the 1900s for widespread eclectical medicine to be stopped Nah, we know this douchebag invented it in the 1790s and is even to this day revered in the name and practices of several otherwise reputable medical institutions around the world. Unless you're mistakenly doing what a lot of alt med sellers want you to do, and lumping in general herb poo poo as "homeopathy".
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Apr 22, 2019 05:01
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fishmech posted:Nah, we know this douchebag invented it in the 1790s and is even to this day revered in the name and practices of several otherwise reputable medical institutions around the world. I am being a bit loose with using homeopathy for non scientific medicine. The point still stands. Modern scientific medicine forcing homeopathy its ilk out is still a historically recent phenomena and homeopathy and the such still has managed to maintain a supportive minority in spite of it.
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Apr 22, 2019 05:18
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:I am being a bit loose with using homeopathy for non scientific medicine. The point still stands. No it does not stand. Homeopathy is special in its degree of non-alignment with not just medical fact, but physics in general. Many other "alternative" treatments are things like poor quality symptom treatments for which real medicine has treatments of a root cause, or things that do nothing but it makes sense how they could work. Homeopathy relies on leaping to "memory" effects to justify its dilution principles because early 19th century science had already figured out dilutions prescribed would result in 0 substance.
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Apr 22, 2019 05:51
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JustJeff88 posted:All it would take is a clear warning that says "This product has undergone no formal testing and has never been proven to work", but who cares if useless shite is sold to customers so long as someone makes money. Just disallow health claims the manufacturer can't prove in a double-blind trial. Beyond some basics the law specifies. Would help with all kinds of other products (yoghurt, soft drinks) making dubious health claims as well.
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Apr 22, 2019 08:47
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Lambert posted:Just disallow health claims the manufacturer can't prove in a double-blind trial. Beyond some basics the law specifies. Would help with all kinds of other products (yoghurt, soft drinks) making dubious health claims as well. One of the issues with a lot of those dubious health food claims is that a lot of them are unfortunately truthful statements. All it takes is one study coming out that somewhere says that people who eat *thing* on the regular have a slightly lower risk of *health problem* and suddenly everything that contains *thing* plasters MAY REDUCE RISK OF *HEALTH PROBLEM* all over the box. It's misleading but it isn't actually a lie. Yeah, it might. But it also might not do you any good if the benefits are small. It might also be possible that people who have genes that make them less prone to *health problem* almost always come with genes that makes them like the taste of *thing.* Of course it may also be that people who are eating a lot of *thing* only have so much space in their diets so eating *thing* automatically means you're eating less crap. You can only eat so much, after all, and if you up something that's not bad for you there's a good chance you reduce something that is bad for you. Like how candy often says some variation of fat free on it as if that's actually a meaningful statement in any way. Of course it's loving fat free. It's just a blob of sugar. Of course that also goes back to the days of "if you don't want to be fat then just don't eat any fat! Simple!" I forget where that nonsense started but it led to stupid rear end fad diets that told you you could eat all the not fat calories you wanted so long as you laid off the fat and you'd magically lose weight even if you didn't exercise because reasons. It obviously turned out to be bullshit as your body doesn't really give a crap where the calories came from it isn't going to throw away perfectly good calories if you get extra so into your fat they go.
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Apr 22, 2019 10:05
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Like how candy often says some variation of fat free on it as if that's actually a meaningful statement in any way. Of course it's loving fat free. It's just a blob of sugar. Of course that also goes back to the days of "if you don't want to be fat then just don't eat any fat! Simple!" I forget where that nonsense started but it led to stupid rear end fad diets that told you you could eat all the not fat calories you wanted so long as you laid off the fat and you'd magically lose weight even if you didn't exercise because reasons. It obviously turned out to be bullshit as your body doesn't really give a crap where the calories came from it isn't going to throw away perfectly good calories if you get extra so into your fat they go. It started back in the sixties. People were trying to figure out why heart disease was on the rise, one theory was high fat diets, and the sugar industry paid to promote that theory because it took the heat off their products.
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Apr 22, 2019 11:06
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Real medicine is loving expensive and makes people feel stupid. If I can pay 1/10th of the insane amount my doctor charges to tell me I'm wrong and stupid and need to take care of myself, to get to tell myself I'm right about my own body and believe I have a fix, then; well, that logic seems pretty clear why so many choose that route. Healthcare is already a sham, homeopathic nonsense is just a second level grift. I had an aunt homeopathy her cancer into the grave, the poo poo hits a little close to home.
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Apr 23, 2019 00:55
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BrandorKP posted:It's also in the baby medicine sections. I have a high school friend who is into homeopathic poo poo (and of course she’s the “CEO of her own business”, some sort of MLM stuff that involves selling to everyone you meet) For the most part I could roll my eyes and change the subject — even when she was trying to sell her husband’s mother some bullshit oils for her cancer treatment pain it was pretty funny as she got told off. But then she got pregnant and had a baby, and mentioned something causally offhand about her baby’s chiropractor making ‘adjustments’ and it really ruined my day as I had a mini crisis about whether I should (or could) do anything.  She just has a willful gullibility to people who talk that language (she also ended up with a lovely timeshare in her 20s) and I don’t quite understand it — she was a much better student than my slacker rear end in school. Maybe I should just be happy that she’s gotten her kid vaccinated and hates Trump?
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Apr 23, 2019 03:07
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I'm still trying to figure out where McDonald's fits into this. Do they even have tomatoes on most of their popular burgers? McDonald's switched to okay tomatoes that yield to human teeth after popularizing the poo poo ones because the poo poo ones got so disgusting that people stopped eating at McDonald's and they had to change their supply as part of a big move to make their food more edible and less characterized by the phrase "hosed up chunks." Also, yes.
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Apr 23, 2019 13:04
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EdithUpwards posted:McDonald's switched to okay tomatoes that yield to human teeth after popularizing the poo poo ones because the poo poo ones got so disgusting that people stopped eating at McDonald's and they had to change their supply as part of a big move to make their food more edible and less characterized by the phrase "hosed up chunks." Do you have a link for this, because I'd like to read about it. Speaking of links, maybe I missed it in the thread, but the Sears Libertarian is being sued: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/sears-sues-eddie-lampert-steven-mnuchin-others-for-alleged-thefts.html Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 21:41
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wrong retail thread sry
snoo fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 02:34
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Paradoxish posted:This is pretty far off-topic, but can someone explain how homeopathic bullshit became so widespread and acceptable? It's demonstrably worthless and makes claims which can potentially encourage people to choose it over treatments that are actually safe and effective. It seems like an absolutely massive regulatory failure. Because somewhere along the line, supplement grifters managed to permanently keep their products away from being regulated by the FDA. Like they fight that poo poo tooth and nail against every attempt to change the status quo. Frontline did a great documentary about this several years back.
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Apr 26, 2019 16:03
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https://www.technologyreview.com/f/613434/amazons-system-for-tracking-its-warehouse-workers-can-automatically-fire-them/ I, for one, welcome our robotic overlords.
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Apr 26, 2019 20:00
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TyroneGoldstein posted:Because somewhere along the line, supplement grifters managed to permanently keep their products away from being regulated by the FDA. Like they fight that poo poo tooth and nail against every attempt to change the status quo. That still seems like an explanation for stuff like herbal medicine. Not homeopathic medicine. It makes perfect sense something like herbs or patent medicine or any of that snake oil would be common. Homeopathic medicine specifically is mind boggling. As it's weird anyone hears about it and says "yeah that sounds right' (and I think as in this thread the answer is people just don't know what it is and take homeopathic to just be a synonym for any alternative medicine. )
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Apr 26, 2019 20:02
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That still seems like an explanation for stuff like herbal medicine. Not homeopathic medicine. It makes perfect sense something like herbs or patent medicine or any of that snake oil would be common. Homeopathic medicine specifically is mind boggling. As it's weird anyone hears about it and says "yeah that sounds right' (and I think as in this thread the answer is people just don't know what it is and take homeopathic to just be a synonym for any alternative medicine. ) The basis for homeopathic medicine is like the opposite of logic. Less = more, opposite = cure.
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Apr 26, 2019 20:15
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That still seems like an explanation for stuff like herbal medicine. Not homeopathic medicine. It makes perfect sense something like herbs or patent medicine or any of that snake oil would be common. Homeopathic medicine specifically is mind boggling. As it's weird anyone hears about it and says "yeah that sounds right' (and I think as in this thread the answer is people just don't know what it is and take homeopathic to just be a synonym for any alternative medicine. ) Homeopathic medicine was very popular in the 19th century, and had a good century of it being well entrenched by the time you had the homeopathic "doctor" senator demanding the FDA include the established homeopathic "drugs" as valid drugs alongside the real medicine. From that point forward, the FDA basically couldn't crack down on anyone selling it as long as the "drugs" matched up with the preparations. And of course since homeopathic prescribers could point to "this drug approved by the FDA" info it maintained its reputation with the public that still believed in it. It wasn't hard for homeopathic medicine to seem legit to the uneducated in the 19th century due to general poor state of medical practice then - just look at how President Garfield ended up dead because the best doctors available couldn't resist doing dumb practices of their own to treat a simple gunshot wound - and as you roll into the 20th century you still had tons of barely educated "doctors" around because there wasn't solid medical licensing nationwide until around World War II plus most doctors could get grandfathered in even if their training was "I read some books in 1910 and I've been practicing medicine out in Farmington ever since". These days, homeopathic medicine mostly survives because they were able to tie themselves in to all the big alt-med stuff of the 60s and 70s, things which usually at least have more basis in reality than homeopathy proper. You combine that with how the FDA basically still had to say the long-standing homeopathic formulas counted as valid tested medicines the same way as aspirin or penicilin were? You have a pretty solid way to keep selling your homeopathic bullshit to the subset of the population who's receptive. And that's just for the US. In the UK you had the NHS forced to allow and pay for homeopathic 'medicine' and even 'homeopathic hospitals' up til the 2010s, in large part because you had dipshit princes and nobility who strongly believed in it. Prince Charles is still trying to push it to this day: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/01/17/professor-reignites-war-prince-charles-homeopathy-support/
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Apr 26, 2019 20:30
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fishmech posted:It wasn't hard for homeopathic medicine to seem legit to the uneducated in the 19th century due to general poor state of medical practice then - just look at how President Garfield ended up dead because the best doctors available couldn't resist doing dumb practices of their own to treat a simple gunshot wound - and as you roll into the 20th century you still had tons of barely educated "doctors" around because there wasn't solid medical licensing nationwide until around World War II plus most doctors could get grandfathered in even if their training was "I read some books in 1910 and I've been practicing medicine out in Farmington ever since". Humeral medicine isn't right, as a man in 2019 I know that, but it at least sounds vaguely plausible if I don't know anything. If I met an alien and they started telling me their biology and it had issues with various medical treatments to increase and decrease the presence of various things in their body that could sound at least like something. Homeopathic medicine is so weird because nothing about it sounds like a thing that is right, nothing in anyone's experiance has ever or would ever work like that. Like you can get some people with quinine sorta kinda a little bit looking like it works like that with malaria, but it feels like such an obvious scam compared to any other fake or folk medicine.
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Apr 26, 2019 20:37
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Mister Facetious posted:Do you have a link for this, because I'd like to read about it.
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Apr 26, 2019 20:58
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Humeral medicine isn't right, as a man in 2019 I know that, but it at least sounds vaguely plausible if I don't know anything. If I met an alien and they started telling me their biology and it had issues with various medical treatments to increase and decrease the presence of various things in their body that could sound at least like something. Homeopathic medicine is so weird because nothing about it sounds like a thing that is right, nothing in anyone's experiance has ever or would ever work like that. Like you can get some people with quinine sorta kinda a little bit looking like it works like that with malaria, but it feels like such an obvious scam compared to any other fake or folk medicine. In seriousness, at the time it often sold itself as "you know how we give you cowpox so you don't get smallpox? did you know it works the same for literally everything?". And homeopaths would also claim the dilution and mixing was about making the treatments more pure so they worked better. And it didn't hurt things that homeopathic medicine was often "diluted" in high grade alcohol directly, or your doc would advise you to mix it in with such things. Similar to many other scam medicine of the time, you'd definitely feel something. Really the modern high insistence on water memory and really insane dilutions from the practitioners? That's more of a reaction to how people became more educated over time, and so the homeopaths had to start coming up with more excuses. It's also why you see a lot less of the traditional tricks like serving your "medicine" in a large volume of high strength alcohol. A 19th century or early 20th century "homeopath" would even use quite a bit of what we could consider real medicine today, and sub in their bullshit meds for only the more complicated things to treat. As such their existing practice would involve a sizable amount of real treatment, which build trust, which means when they're begging you to buy their bullshit meds you don't see it as fake. Doctor Jimmy wouldn't lie to us!
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Apr 26, 2019 21:10
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I think a lot of people just assume homeopathic medicine is an offshoot of natural herbal remedies and don't actually know all that much about the dilution and active ingredients. To them it just sounds like a scientific name for alternative medicine so they pick up a bottle. Though, yes, there was the person I explained homeopathy to who was still convinced it was legit because "that's how vaccines work".
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Apr 26, 2019 21:22
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That still seems like an explanation for stuff like herbal medicine. Not homeopathic medicine. It makes perfect sense something like herbs or patent medicine or any of that snake oil would be common. Homeopathic medicine specifically is mind boggling. As it's weird anyone hears about it and says "yeah that sounds right' (and I think as in this thread the answer is people just don't know what it is and take homeopathic to just be a synonym for any alternative medicine. ) All they really have to do to make the distinction and immediately shut down any and all regulation is to call each 'dose' a 'serving' and then it's magically not medical in any way shape or form. I am simplifying this a bit but I am not kidding. That Frontline doc I mentioned went into this. These people are extremely crafty.
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Apr 27, 2019 15:51
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CmdrRiker posted:https://www.technologyreview.com/f/613434/amazons-system-for-tracking-its-warehouse-workers-can-automatically-fire-them/ As a dev, I always wonder how amoral or immoral you have to be to build this kind of system and not wonder what the human repercussions are going to be.
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Apr 27, 2019 17:31
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