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Binary Logic posted:He fulfilled that oath and his obligations were over when he died. If you want to get rules lawyery about it, his titles and claims all passed over when he died too.
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Apr 22, 2019 12:25
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The oath says: "I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come", it doesn't say "until my heart stops beating for some unspecified period of time". I'm certain that in the books there will be characters who'll consider Jon to be an oathbreaker, for the show that would just be some confusing ambiguity. OTOH in the books it's pretty safe to assume that the Night's Watch is pretty much over with the moment Jon is murdered because Castle Black has a 10:1 ratio of Wildlings to Night's watch men, and a few Melisandre\Selyse loyalists who probably wouldn't be down with the whole thing either, so who knows.
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Apr 22, 2019 12:28
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The oath says: "I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come", it doesn't say "until my heart stops beating for some unspecified period of time". It literally does: Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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Apr 22, 2019 12:36
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esperterra posted:But if I took a shot for every time I've heard the word crypt so far The show definitely lost an enormous amount of nuance once they outpaced GRRM. That being said this ep was very good on the whole! The show has had its weak points, especially where GRRM's writing has been absent, but overall it's been a great ride so far. Martin told the showrunners exactly how it all ends right? I'm expecting a lot of people to die next week. Anybody reckon there's anything to Tyrion's quip about people surviving during the fireplace scene, given his earlier heart-to-heart with Bran? It seems he's pretty much the only person not actively trying to avoid conversation with him, maybe that earned him a few spoilers.
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Apr 22, 2019 12:37
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Why does Jorah always look like he's about to let out a really tight fart
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Apr 22, 2019 12:38
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Alchenar posted:If you want to get rules lawyery about it, his titles and claims all passed over when he died too. Medieval law never had figured out what to do if someone dies, passes his titles and claims and then comes back to life. However, it's plausible to believe that nothing would have been passed on once he's back to life, because death is usually considered permanent and if it isn't, well, then he by law wasn't really dead. Thus, the things go back to him. This technically also goes for the oath, but really, until the last episode he officially was a bastard, soooo
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Apr 22, 2019 12:41
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e:nm
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Apr 22, 2019 12:44
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Skippy McPants posted:Nearly everyone else in the main cast is dour, old, and worn down. Doomsday shagging is for the youths who still have enough energy to do more than drink. "I'm not spending my final hours with you two miserable old shits," sums it up well. Yah, one thing I noticed about this episode is how freaking aged a lot of the adult actors look. A lot of it is, well, age, but I do think there's this noticeable thematic difference between the "old" and "new" generation in this episode. I especially noticed it with Jaime, considering the recap showed how he looked in S1E1, and the comparison is just stark, no pun intended.
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Apr 22, 2019 12:45
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If you want to get rules lawyery about it, Jon was the Rightful King up until the moment he took the Black, where it either transitioned to Viserys or Daenerys (I can't remember which came first, Jon taking the Black or Viserys getting his golden crown). Jon took that oath and swore it with every fiber of his being; the Oath is valid because Jon himself would consider it valid. That said, there are no rules for resurrection, leaving the legal situation as "an absolute loving shitstorm." In essence, given that neither of them currently occupy the Iron Throne and none of the Kingdoms hold allegiance to any of them, they're both claimants with pretty much equally powerful claims. That said, the only one of them who actually has the power to press their claim is Daenerys, because she's got A loving Huge Army And Dragons and Jon... doesn't. In addition, as Dany pointed out, there remains the question of proof for Jon's claims; there are exactly 2 pieces of proof, one of which is Bran alleges he saw it in a vision; the visions themselves could easily be proven, the validity of that specific one not. The second is a book, allegedly from the Citadel, that was produced by Jon's best friend. If you buy into chain of custody, that evidence is incredibly suspicious. We, as the viewers, know both evidence is legit; the characters, in universe, might not.
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Apr 22, 2019 12:51
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I was wondering why goons got their knickers in a twist seeing a 22-year-old’s sideboob then I remembered that y’all are all miserable old shits yourselves. I’m dating someone only a year older than Maisie Williams irl, am I a pedo? Our youthful exuberance also allows us to enjoy good TV shows like HBO’s Game of Thrones
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Apr 22, 2019 12:55
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I wasn't sure if theon was missing the beans or the frank or both, but I think I worked it out. He's immune to a nut shot, so the testicles are gone. Also Ramsey made a joke about the sausage he was eating was definitely not theon's wiener. Ergo, theon lost everything downstairs. The clues are all there.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:00
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Woden posted:What was wrong with the time? Sam gave him poo poo eariler for not telling her and mentioned there's no good time to do it so. He then goes to the crypt of his mum and lets loose right before the big battle where death is probable and she can't do poo poo with this new info. Also her hand already knows. It's right before the big, world-saving-or-ending battle. Probably the last time to go and tell the woman who controls what are probably the most important assets they have for said battle something that will dramatically shake her psyche and possibly have her feel threatened by you and stuff. Just wait until the battle's over and tell her then so you aren't risking thousands of lives, if not the whole continent/world, if you're both alive after it at least; if she's dead, then she can't complain, and if you're dead, then she's the only heir anyway. It's perfectly in-character for him to do it, it's just also really stupid of him. quote:Jon made an oath to the Nights Watch that he'd never get married, have kids, own land and renounced all past allegiances and birthrights. We already know he doesn't give a poo poo about oaths, and with all the king of the north die-hards plenty of others don't either. Right, that was discussed last week. It just seems like, if they're going to make such a big deal over how technically he's the real heir and present that like it's a threat to Dany even if he doesn't actually want the throne anyway, because he "should" be the heir, then someone else should bring up that he actually should get jack poo poo because picking and choosing what honor and truth demand he do whether or not he likes it and what he can just blow off is hypocritical and stupid. After his big speech about how words need to mean something, deciding the oath he swore doesn't count just makes it seem like he doesn't really have principles and is just a selfish idiot. Really, the only way Jon has a claim on the throne is if he wants to take it, and gently caress everything else. He has so many outs (his oath, covering up something that barely anyone knows and most people wouldn't believe anyway, just telling Dany he doesn't want it and nothing is actually changed) that presenting this as if it's a big threat to Dany is stupid unless Jon is actually trying to put his rear end on the throne. This would be a non-issue if he didn't insist on making it an issue. Now, like, if it was portrayed as Jon just feeling guilty and uncomfortable about the secret and/or accidental incest and told Dany to explain why they can't be in a relationship anymore and so that she knows the facts too, and it was only treated like a challenge to Dany's rule by her own paranoia and resulted in a tragic misunderstanding/the apotheosis of Mad Dany, that'd make a lot more sense. But Bran, Sam, and Jon's reactions all suggest that the main issue is they think Jon needs to go on the throne rather than Dany, and while that makes sense for Sam, the supposedly-emotionless Bran being super shocked by it and going, "We need to tell Jon," makes it clear that he sees it as a major issue too, rather than an uncomfortable case of accidental incest that kills a relationship but doesn't, say, alter the course of a whole continent by deciding the next ruler. But anyway, setting aside that this whole conflict is silly, as I said before Jon picked pretty much the worst time possible to tell Dany this, outside of maybe shouting it to her mid-battle or while she's in the middle of a life-or-death struggle with the Night King or whatever. When was the last time Jon made a good decision, or at least a not-extremely-stupid one? I can't remember. Sky Shadowing posted:If you want to get rules lawyery about it, Jon was the Rightful King up until the moment he took the Black, where it either transitioned to Viserys or Daenerys (I can't remember which came first, Jon taking the Black or Viserys getting his golden crown). Jon took that oath and swore it with every fiber of his being; the Oath is valid because Jon himself would consider it valid. Yep, and of course the real thing that matters with claims is whether you can take and keep your target anyway. It's just that people are acting like this fact changes everything, but somehow the issue of oaths that demand you forsake any titles and inheritances, which have been major parts of other characters' stories, just doesn't matter anymore, which is silly. It feels contrived. If they wanted it to be an issue, then someone other than Jon should have revealed it and used it as a challenge to Dany's rule or whatever, or gone with the "Jon doesn't care about the throne (though he probably isn't a fan of the incest) but Dany can't accept any potential challenges to her reign" or something. Instead the characters have somehow all become convinced that order of inheritance is inviolable (despite it not being such for several characters now) but sworn oaths don't matter (despite them really, really mattering for a whole lot of characters, including some directly involved here). Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Apr 22, 2019 |
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Apr 22, 2019 13:00
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Actually this raises a point: none of the characters except the ones who were actually there know that Jon died and was brought back. The North don't know. The show made a point of Davos almost spilling the secret but being stopped to Dany & co. I'd say "the legalities of Jon technically being dead don't matter" but for the fact that the Davos scene was put in deliberately to make the point that it's secret knowledge, so presumably there's coming a point where that knowledge does matter.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:03
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the real answer is that succession and inheritance is incredibly messy and historically people never strictly adhered to it unless it benefitted them which is why this show shouldn't end with a hero king. gruesomely and unceremoniously kill off jon, dany, and cersei imo
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Apr 22, 2019 13:04
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smash the monarchy, gently caress the queen etc
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Apr 22, 2019 13:07
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Also funny how Bran just casually drops that he's an enormous psychic beacon calling the Night King to wherever he is.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:09
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I was wondering why goons got their knickers in a twist seeing a 22-year-old’s sideboob then I remembered that y’all are all miserable old shits yourselves. I’m dating someone only a year older than Maisie Williams irl, am I a pedo? Feeling a little defensive, huh?
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Apr 22, 2019 13:09
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Dongicus posted:smash the monarchy, gently caress the queen etc Hello Euron, didn’t know you were a goon
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Apr 22, 2019 13:09
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Next week is a bottle episode / stealth pilot for the new prequel series and we don’t check in with any of the main characters except to set up the framing device. Anyway why don’t the just take Bran to Essos where he’s 100% safe if he’s the key to saving all of mankind. Also most of the people in the world live in Essos so it seems like there might be a problem with NK’s overall goals if he continues to not be able to take his poo poo across water.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:10
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Dongicus posted:the real answer is that succession and inheritance is incredibly messy and historically people never strictly adhered to it unless it benefitted them Ivan the Terrible claimed that he was the successor of the Roman empire and everyone went along it.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:11
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DaveKap posted:
Who else is going to fight the Mountain and kill him by hitting him with a lit torch? It will both kill off the Mountain and help the Hound get over his fear of fire. As for the Arya sex scene, whatever. I've seen other stuff Maisie Williams has done where she actually looks her age, so if you think about it in that context it really isn't that jarring. She was positively terrifying, for example, as Ashildr in those 4-5 episodes of Doctor Who. It's like thinking Gwendoline Christie is plain or ugly because she's not all made up as Brienne. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Apr 22, 2019 |
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Apr 22, 2019 13:12
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dude who plays tormund is way too good for this show tbh it not like his lines are any less dumb or cheesy than anyone elses but somehow I 100% buy his character and I barely even remember his character from the books
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Apr 22, 2019 13:14
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Malcolm Turnbeug posted:dude who plays tormund is way too good for this show tbh it not like his lines are any less dumb or cheesy than anyone elses but somehow I 100% buy his character and I barely even remember his character from the books A lot of that is Mance’s plot given to him some after Mance’s actor kind of did nothing. Not that Tormund is bad, because he’s one of the best things with the show.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:21
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Malcolm Turnbeug posted:dude who plays tormund is way too good for this show tbh it not like his lines are any less dumb or cheesy than anyone elses but somehow I 100% buy his character and I barely even remember his character from the books The writers/directors must have seen Vikings and copied the best parts of each character's personality from that show to create the most entertaining fake-Norseman of all time.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:21
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Any spiders next Sunday? Any spiders, big as hounds?
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Apr 22, 2019 13:23
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fullroundaction posted:Next week is a bottle episode / stealth pilot for the new prequel series and we don’t check in with any of the main characters except to set up the framing device. The Night King's "programming" may well be just to purge Westeros specifically. Or maybe after he wipes it clean he'll take a zombie dragon or three across the ocean. It's kind of a future problem, and even if the ocean is an absolute barrier for him, not letting the hundreds of thousands of people on Westeros die is a pretty reasonable goal for the protagonists, so it doesn't exactly change much as far as the series is concerned; at most it would affect how bleak the ending is if he wins. Fritz Coldcockin posted:As for the Arya sex scene, whatever. I've seen other stuff Maisie Williams has done where she actually looks her age, so if you think about it in that context it really isn't that jarring. She was positively terrifying, for example, as Ashildr in those 4-5 episodes of Doctor Who. It's like thinking Gwendoline Christie is plain or ugly because she's not all made up as Brienne. Well, if you don't know that Arya is supposed to be eighteen in the scene, then even if you're aware that Maisie is an adult it makes things kind of uncomfortable. The passage of time on the show is unclear at the best of times so it's pretty easy to think she's still a lot younger. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Apr 22, 2019 |
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Apr 22, 2019 13:23
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Roland Jones posted:Well, if you don't know that Arya is supposed to be eighteen in the scene, then even if you're aware that Maisie is an adult it makes things kind of uncomfortable. The passage of time on the show is unclear at the best of times so it's pretty easy to think she's still a lot younger. It's even worse if you have Book Arya stuck in your head because I don't think she ever gets past, oh, 11 or 12 in GRRM's universe.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:27
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One of the supplement books mentions that China-os, whatever GRRM calls it, has a Great Wall to keep out spooky things, which heavily implies that Essos isn’t safe.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:29
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:It's even worse if you have Book Arya stuck in your head because I don't think she ever gets past, oh, 11 or 12 in GRRM's universe. the book timeline is all kinds of hosed up, it's best not to think to much about it
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Apr 22, 2019 13:35
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Tormund: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G6JymgFusw
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Apr 22, 2019 13:44
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:One of the supplement books mentions that China-os, whatever GRRM calls it, has a Great Wall to keep out spooky things, which heavily implies that Essos isn’t safe. Feel like that doesn't make sense with the show, where the night king was created in westeros, and not that long ago either, relativly speaking. But in the book maybe the others are more of a global thing?
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Apr 22, 2019 13:44
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bobjr posted:A lot of that is Mance’s plot given to him some after Mance’s actor kind of did nothing. Ciaran Hinds is expensive.
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Apr 22, 2019 13:45
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So with the battleplan scene and Bran finally dropping what most assumed, he is the target. But the line about how he "has his mark" on him and because of that the "Night King can always find me." Basically Hodor is the most important character by saving literally "the memories" of the ASOIAF world. But the original scene when Bran got marked, obviously felt very important at the time, and I still did not like it- with the three-eyed raven repeating "HE TUCHED YU!" Like bruh you should've loving taught Bran "NO TOUCHING" Arrested Development style or something, if that poo poo is literally the most important thing in the world- to know Bran's location. Other point is, what was the point of Bran's vision there at all, other than for that moment to happen randomly. I don't know. I enjoyed most of the fanservice-y poo poo with bigtime character arc closure. Dany concerned about the Iron Throne alone felt lame- if she loved Jon I'd think her response would've been more like "omg I get to marry within the family and carry on tradition." knox fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Apr 22, 2019 |
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Apr 22, 2019 13:48
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Xanderkish posted:This also fascinates me. I'm sure plenty of people who complain about it complain because the show's gone in directions they don't like, which I get, because I felt that way about Hannibal season 3. It's for those people who seem to have not enjoyed the show for a long time that I don't get. I mean, I have enough of a problem finishing shows I actually like. And even when a show starts going in a direction I don't like (again, like Hannibal season 3), I just, you know, stop watching, because I don't have the time or inclination to watch a show that bores/upsets me. What attracts a person to watch a show that just makes them so angry all the time? if i start something i have to finish it. i've never put down a book half read or stopped a movie half watched.
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Apr 22, 2019 14:01
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knox posted:I enjoyed most of the fanservice-y poo poo with bigtime character arc closure. Dany concerned about the Iron Throne alone felt lame- if she loved Jon I'd think her response would've been more like "omg I get to marry within the family and carry on tradition." I think her character is justified in freaking out - the dream of becoming queen of all Westeros has been driving her since the end of season 1. Finally she's here and her big opportunity gets abruptly sidetracked by spooky ice liches and now she's in some frozen shithole probably about to lose most of her army and the weird kid tells her the dragon she lost is now a zombie then shortly after Jamie lets her know Cersei's got a big fuckin' hostile army and gets Sansa guaranteeing a rebellious North after this current war THEN her lover tells her he actually isn't a Stark bastard but the legitimate Targaryan king of all Westeros and that the proof is two guys close to him and he really believes it. All things considered I wouldn't be surprised if she uses the chaos of next week's battle to try and neaten up her ascension to monarch a little. Maybe set to The Doors. w0o0o0o fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Apr 22, 2019 |
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Apr 22, 2019 14:08
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Crimpolioni posted:Feel like that doesn't make sense with the show, where the night king was created in westeros, and not that long ago either, relativly speaking. But in the book maybe the others are more of a global thing? It still kind of does, the essos wall basically cuts off the yi ti empire from the rest of essos which makes sense if the threat started in Westeros.
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Apr 22, 2019 14:14
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I was wondering why goons got their knickers in a twist seeing a 22-year-old’s sideboob then I remembered that y’all are all miserable old shits yourselves. I’m dating someone only a year older than Maisie Williams irl, am I a pedo? she doesn't look her age. and yeah i'm guessing most of us are closer to gendry's actor's age.
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Apr 22, 2019 14:18
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Lady Mormont is 100% going to end up warden of the north.
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Apr 22, 2019 14:22
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Roland Jones posted:Well, if you don't know that Arya is supposed to be eighteen in the scene, then even if you're aware that Maisie is an adult it makes things kind of uncomfortable. The passage of time on the show is unclear at the best of times so it's pretty easy to think she's still a lot younger. There's also the fact that just seeing someone you've known (or as well as you can know any character on a TV show) since they were a kid come into sexual maturity is loving weird. If anyone's had cousins or other relatives who were more than a few years younger so you always knew them as like a baby cousin or whatever, start talking about condoms and birth control and how she loves she boyfriend but she swears to god he couldn't find his way to a clitoris with a loving GPS, it's kind of jarring. And it'd probably be even more jarring if I was somehow cursed with having to see that sexual maturity play out before my eyes. I think this is also why vastly less people were bothered by the nude scenes involving the sand snakes, even though one of them was definitely 18 or 19 at the time of filming. It's almost like, if you didn't know someone when they were a kid, part of your brain just treats it like they came fully-formed out of a vat labeled "BARELY LEGAL HOT COEDS XXX".
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Apr 22, 2019 14:23
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Xanderkish posted:There's also the fact that just seeing someone you've known (or as well as you can know any character on a TV show) since they were a kid come into sexual maturity is loving weird. If anyone's had cousins or other relatives who were more than a few years younger so you always knew them as like a baby cousin or whatever, start talking about condoms and birth control and how she loves she boyfriend but she swears to god he couldn't find his way to a clitoris with a loving GPS, it's kind of jarring. And it'd probably be even more jarring if I was somehow cursed with having to see that sexual maturity play out before my eyes.
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Apr 22, 2019 14:32
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