MSPaint Adventures - Homestuck Edition, the Final Acts

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MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

I've started my re-read again after the Epilogue. And yeah I def see the similarity between Doc Scratch and Ultimate Dirk. Especially their shared fondness for Rose.

Also we never did get an answer on the Horrorterrors.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 17:09

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# ? May 24, 2024 20:14

Bobulus: Jan 28, 2007

Ursine Catastrophe posted:

Meat spoiler: Am I the only one who read Vriska�s reaction to that as a very blatant �this is you, this is what you sound like� at the post-Act 7 fanbase

I mean, it's that, but it's also Dirk hating Vriska because she's another manipulator and cheering (as the not-yet-revealed narrator) when she takes a hit.

MonsieurChoc posted:

I've started my re-read again after the Epilogue. And yeah I def see the similarity between Doc Scratch and Ultimate Dirk. Especially their shared fondness for Rose.

I do wonder if there's a bit of a metacontext for this. I mean, Hussie has said he put a lot of his own personality in Dave and even more into Dirk. And Dirk orange and Hussie orange are pretty drat similar. Given that we've got three authors here, one might speculate that Hussie worked more on the Meat side and lent it his particular brand of just balls-to-the-wall weirdness.

Bobulus fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Apr 22, 2019

# ? Apr 22, 2019 17:21

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

Reading both of these stories at the same time alternating chapters was the right decision.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 17:51

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

One thing that makes me feel like this isn't over yet is that it seems like it would be irresistible to extend the character-narrator concept to other characters, especially Rose, who's already Ultimate and whose instances have written versions of a novel which was explicitly referenced in both Meat and Candy.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 17:53

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

Losing track of how many iterations of the story there are. I don't even mean like two stories as in Meat and Candy, I mean there's the story, Homestuck, that Hussie and some folks work on. Then there's the story of Homestuck, which is what happens and how it hangs together as an audience experience and whether the characters are interesting to us and we can follow what's going on. Then there's The Story, which is a narrative construct within the story of Homestuck whose Continuity (defined as causal completeness) is crucial for maintaining the coherence of the multiverse, even for characters and places defined as outside of that multiverse. Then there's all the individual stories and arcs and chapters and what have you that start and stop and overwrite each other and run in parallel. And now there's Dirk achieving some kind of apotheosis that lets him cut across most of these story layers and Dead Calliope who I don't know what she's doing and goddamn does it feel like a lot to keep track of.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 18:24

Spellman: May 31, 2011

Bobulus posted:

I mean, it's that, but it's also Dirk hating Vriska because she's another manipulator and cheering (as the not-yet-revealed narrator) when she takes a hit.

I do wonder if there's a bit of a metacontext for this. I mean, Hussie has said he put a lot of his own personality in Dave and even more into Dirk. And Dirk orange and Hussie orange are pretty drat similar. Given that we've got three authors here, one might speculate that Hussie worked more on the Meat side and lent it his particular brand of just balls-to-the-wall weirdness.

Hussie used his old silly shitposting voice for Dave, and then a more balls-to-the-walls serious voice for Dirk�not 100% sure how much of that was personality, but I always did catch that parallel. Hussie was always quick to reassure us in Q&As that Dave and Dirk definitely were not him, though

https://twitter.com/cephiedvariable/status/1119986052805079042

https://www.homestuck.com/epilogues/meat/34

In fact, some of the most brutal pages of Dirk were written by someone whom is presumably the complete opposite of Dirk in personality. Essentially: Dirk got redpilled, and gained a fuckton of influence and power at some point, and seems to be on a mission to create his own idyllic, no bullshit world. So, not just redpilled in the quest for truth sense, but in the Matrixy Neo-like sense aswell, which seems to have the highest influence in HS

Of course, almost any other character whom goes through this transformation would likely attempt to craft the world in their own flawed images. Who's to say the seemingly pure-hearted John would not let his frustrations with how the Candy epilogue unfolded manifest in some absolutely terrible resolutions? Left alone with a seemingly objective narrator, the world mostly went to poo poo, so whom could resist trying if they had that ability available to them? It becomes like playing with a suburb of Sims. Being able to see everything all at once at any time changes your perspective and the value of everything below you

It becomes unavoidable that you will pick favorites, experience annoyances, see some people so far below the spectrum of resolve that their lives mean nothing to you

It's absolutely possible that Dirk's greater-good solution to all of this is to actually have Dave become the leader of a new world/universe, for which he has a great deal of respect for, and himself admits would probably do a better job in his role. And by leading him on a 17 year quest to achieve his Ultimate Self, if Dave detects there's something wrong about Dirk's angle, he will stop him

So the great irony could be that Dirk doing a bunch of manipulative horseshit to the universe ultimately empowers Dave to seek a resolution to it, for which Dirk enabled because Dave's too pure and initially uninterested in achieving on his own. A self-own for Dirk, really

# ? Apr 22, 2019 18:26

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

I hadn't connected that Earth C, as the resting place of the Meteor, is where the Cherubs grow up - meaning that (as the narrative confirms) given some millions of years the paradise world of Earth C will be a desolate wasteland. But also it sort of seems that the notion that Earth C exists outside of canon feels sort of false, considering it has plot elements crucial to the events of The Story? Which I guess was already sort of true considering Adult John needed to go back to fight Lord English.

Regardless, it does seem to mean that Earth C is necessary in some plot sense that means it can't be erased or undone, the events there are necessary for canon even if the bifurcation of the candy and meat timelines makes it unclear which one is the crucial one.

While I'm at it I'm genuinely curious if there's two exploring-deep-space Terezis, one in Meat and one in Candy, or if Candy John has been chatting with the same Terezi that just found Meat John. I would assume the latter.

Dolash fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Apr 22, 2019

# ? Apr 22, 2019 19:06

Nephthys: Mar 27, 2010

It's totally the exact same Terezi. At the end of Meat Terezi's phone buzzed which was presumably Vriska contacting her for maximum dramatic irony as soon as she stopped looking for her.

Oh and also Terezi never got cut, so that teal liquid that John found in his dads car prooooobably wasn't blood.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 19:25

Ursine Catastrophe: Nov 9, 2009; It's a lovely morning in the void and you are a horrible lady-in-waiting.

don't ask how i know; Dinosaur Gum

Spellman posted:

It's absolutely possible that Dirk's greater-good solution to all of this is to actually have Dave become the leader of a new world/universe, for which he has a great deal of respect for, and himself admits would probably do a better job in his role. And by leading him on a 17 year quest to achieve his Ultimate Self, if Dave detects there's something wrong about Dirk's angle, he will stop him

Meat 41 posted:

And lets also have it on good authority that the next time Dave cuts off my head, itll be for good.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 19:32

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

We're stuck in the Brajstop Ball Room.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 19:37

Dolash: Oct 23, 2008; aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,

It's amazing how much Dirk is still and ultimately and unavoidably Bro. But I am enjoying the hell out of him as an active agent on the narrative plane. He's operating on such a higher level than Caliborn/Lord English did.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 19:40

Space Cadet Omoly: Jan 15, 2014; ~Groovy~

Dolash posted:

I hadn't connected that Earth C, as the resting place of the Meteor, is where the Cherubs grow up - meaning that (as the narrative confirms) given some millions of years the paradise world of Earth C will be a desolate wasteland. But also it sort of seems that the notion that Earth C exists outside of canon feels sort of false, considering it has plot elements crucial to the events of The Story? Which I guess was already sort of true considering Adult John needed to go back to fight Lord English.

Regardless, it does seem to mean that Earth C is necessary in some plot sense that means it can't be erased or undone, the events there are necessary for canon even if the bifurcation of the candy and meat timelines makes it unclear which one is the crucial one.

While I'm at it I'm genuinely curious if there's two exploring-deep-space Terezis, one in Meat and one in Candy, or if Candy John has been chatting with the same Terezi that just found Meat John. I would assume the latter.

Yeah, that's kind of the point all attempts to change the story, up to and including gaining powers that let you change the canon of reality, have just led to creating things that are needed for the story to happen the way it was supposed to in the first place.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 19:44

Ursine Catastrophe: Nov 9, 2009; It's a lovely morning in the void and you are a horrible lady-in-waiting.

don't ask how i know; Dinosaur Gum

Dolash posted:

I hadn't connected that Earth C, as the resting place of the Meteor, is where the Cherubs grow up - meaning that (as the narrative confirms) given some millions of years the paradise world of Earth C will be a desolate wasteland. But also it sort of seems that the notion that Earth C exists outside of canon feels sort of false, considering it has plot elements crucial to the events of The Story? Which I guess was already sort of true considering Adult John needed to go back to fight Lord English.

Regardless, it does seem to mean that Earth C is necessary in some plot sense that means it can't be erased or undone, the events there are necessary for canon even if the bifurcation of the candy and meat timelines makes it unclear which one is the crucial one.

While I'm at it I'm genuinely curious if there's two exploring-deep-space Terezis, one in Meat and one in Candy, or if Candy John has been chatting with the same Terezi that just found Meat John. I would assume the latter.

There's two (or more, but we're only following two) Earth Cs, one is Canon and one is Non-Canon, and there's only one "outside of earth C". The only reason Earth Candy-C (and probably Universe Candy-C) exist at all seems to be because John's retcon powers get tapped to create a bubble for it to exist in at the moment of his decision, also (for whatever reason) it's tied directly to the event horizon of the black hole where the green sun used to exist. Candy!John, having made the reality bubble for Candy-C, seems to be locked inside it along with everyone else, apart from the brief window when the combined powers of Jade, Calliope, and Caliborn cracked a hole in it long enough for Calliope (who has now, for the record, consumed her existing brother, and also her alt-universe brother who consumed his version of calliope, so we're at 4 cherubs-worth of power in one body and counting), Davebot, and Aradia to escape. Now that bubble is ostensibly completely sealed off from the outside universe, with the exception of John's cell phone being able to text outside of it (I don't know if this is confirmed, but everyone saying "Terezi is ignoring my messages" with a couple instances of "Terezi finally got in touch with me" implies some odd level of unidirectionality but I really don't want to re-read the entire thing to figure out what between-the-lines thing is going on there)

Meat-C hasn't been in touch with Terezi at all except when she showed up outside the hospital for 5 minutes and then disappeared off with Dirk, I can only assume that her proximity to the black hole is implied to have sucked in all her messages and delivered them to people in Candy-C only.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 19:54

Bobulus: Jan 28, 2007

One thing pointed out to me that seems a bit ominous...

Dirk's plan to stop Alt-Calliope required him to use a sniper rifle. Dirk 'Katanas solve everything' Strider. Now, there's nothing stopping him from using a rifle, but it doesn't really... seem his style. Especially if he's his Ultimate Self and thus would be even more Himself than ever. You know who does use rifles? Caliborn. Caliborn, whose soul was mixed with AR, who was re-integrated into Dirk, probably.

Also, the whole 'bitches' thing is way more Caliborn than Dirk, isn't it?

That might just be fans trying to 'save' his character, though. I dunno.

edit: Also, we have precedent for Caliborn taking over bodies, as he did to one of the Jacks in Act 6.

Now, I heard you saying... that Jack got pool-ball eyes. And to that I say: Dirk always wears his glasses. How would we know?

Bobulus fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Apr 22, 2019

# ? Apr 22, 2019 20:19

Space Cadet Omoly: Jan 15, 2014; ~Groovy~

Bobulus posted:

One thing pointed out to me that seems a bit ominous...

Dirk's plan to stop Alt-Calliope required him to use a sniper rifle. Dirk 'Katanas solve everything' Strider. Now, there's nothing stopping him from using a rifle, but it doesn't really... seem his style. Especially if he's his Ultimate Self and thus would be even more Himself than ever. You know who does use rifles? Caliborn. Caliborn, whose soul was mixed with AR, who was re-integrated into Dirk, probably.

That might just be fans trying to 'save' his character, though. I dunno.

Not really that ominous, if anything at this point Caliborn is actually a BETTER person than Dirk (which is pretty impressive since Caliborn's an ultra violent cannibalistic space lizard), a small portion him influencing Dirk's personality probably won't make a difference one way or the other.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 20:30

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

As of the ending, Dirk has Davebot, Rosebot, and a dead John. Why wouldn't he have made any effort to collect a Jadebot? Man, does it suck that we've got this new, improved Dave without the untidy doubts. Is it even Dave without the doubts? And Rose wishing for her emotions but knowing she can't have them.

So in Calliope's big speech about authorship at the end of Candy, she explicitly calls out that there's been an (omniscient) narrator all along, and that we haven't been questioning the narrator's identity. Given that Obamabot is obviously programmed/guided by Dirk, it's very possible that Canon Universe Dirk has been pulling more than one string in Earth-Candy. So Earth-Candy may not be true or relevant, but it's also not in as much of a bubble as we've believed. IDK who the narrator is.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 20:38

Space Cadet Omoly: Jan 15, 2014; ~Groovy~

Arsenic Lupin posted:

As of the ending, Dirk has Davebot, Rosebot, and a dead John. Why wouldn't he have made any effort to collect a Jadebot? Man, does it suck that we've got this new, improved Dave without the untidy doubts. Is it even Dave without the doubts? And Rose wishing for her emotions but knowing she can't have them.

So in Calliope's big speech about authorship at the end of Candy, she explicitly calls out that there's been an (omniscient) narrator all along, and that we haven't been questioning the narrator's identity. Given that Obamabot is obviously programmed/guided by Dirk, it's very possible that Canon Universe Dirk has been pulling more than one string in Earth-Candy. So Earth-Candy may not be true or relevant, but it's also not in as much of a bubble as we've believed. IDK who the narrator is.

It's Vriska. Who the heck else would it be?

# ? Apr 22, 2019 20:41

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

I'm glad we finally met (Vriska).

# ? Apr 22, 2019 21:05

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

Space Cadet Omoly posted:

It's Vriska. Who the heck else would it be?

Oh. That certainly would explain the consistent Jake-loathing by all concerned. Do you mean Vriska or (Vriska)?

# ? Apr 22, 2019 21:07

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Ohmygod I'd forgotten they'd censored the disgusting Troll sex scene in Paradox Space by having Dave narrate the entire thing over where the pictures used to be.

This is beautiful.

# ? Apr 22, 2019 21:10

paranoid randroid: Mar 4, 2007