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Leto II also states in God Emperor that Paul couldn't face the endless dream which would result from the final dissolution of the sandtrout skin and the new sandworms: "“Think on the price I pay,” he said. “Every descendant part of me will carry some of my awareness locked away within it, lost and helpless.” She (Hwi) put both hands over her mouth and stared at him. “This is the horror which my father could not face and which he tried to prevent: the infinite division and subdivision of a blind identity.” She lowered her hands and whispered: “You will be conscious?” “In a way . . . but mute. A little pearl of my awareness will go with every sandworm and every sandtrout—knowing yet unable to move a single cell, aware in an endless dream.”"
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Apr 24, 2019 05:54
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I couldn't believe it when I was reading Children of Dune and a bunch of "sand trout" suddenly formed a skin around Leto II and made him into a big worm creature. what the hell. That's where this story is going? OK Frank.
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Apr 24, 2019 05:58
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If only he knew about ultraspice.
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Apr 24, 2019 05:59
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LIke I think people understate just how insane this series got. Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune are loving bonkers and clearly written under the influence of heavy doses of lsd
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Apr 24, 2019 05:59
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IN god emperor the evil trans-human tyrant who is so transcendent he amuses himself by repeatedly resurrecting and murdering his old companion is killed because....he gets horny and distracted by a good looking young woman? What?
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Apr 24, 2019 06:02
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phasmid posted:Leto says later that if things hadn't unfolded as they did, humanity would have stagnated and gone extinct. "Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever. And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings." That's referring to the (strongly implied prescient) "seeking machines" Siona sees in her spice agony, which I take to be an unintended result of Ix/Guild/BG collaboration on mechanical Navigators. We're told that research is happening during God Emperor, with Leto's knowledge and stipulation that he is kept updated on progress. Apparently it's proceeding slower than in a Tyrant-free timeline. By the time they perfect these machines (mentioned in Heretics) Siona's invisible-to-prescience bloodline has propagated, and the Scattering has made humanity a more diffuse target. The mechanical Navigators haven't evolved or devolved or been turned in to murder-bots. Or if they have, they haven't reached the Old Imperium... yet.
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Apr 24, 2019 06:04
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I can't speak for Children since it's been years since I read it, but God Emperor is a very measured and through treatise on Frank's personal philosophy, especially on the nature of politics. Frank was making a commentary on the nature of charismatic leaders and the interaction of various political systems, and I'd say he succeeded at that. I feel what's important about the "crazier" aspects of Dune is that Frank understood very well when not to explain things. We don't fully know how the sandtrout skin transformation entirely works, and that's kind of the point. What's crucial is the effects on the universe and Leto himself, and I feel it's part of why God Emperor works so well. You know just enough to understand Leto as a character and what he's going through, but not so much that it just becomes blatant pseudo-science and farcical in that way. As for Duncan, my understanding is that Duncan represents an earlier period of humanity which has been lost by Leto's 3500 year tyranny. Leto wanted to maintain it in some fashion, and Duncan was the answer. I don't believe it's a coincidence that it was Duncan who was a key figure in Leto's death, especially given how resistant he was to Leto's tyranny.
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Apr 24, 2019 06:17
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I don't really think Frank Herbert's personal and political philosophies are all that coherent or even interesting, to be honest. Dune was great though.
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Apr 24, 2019 06:20
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Like what is Herbert's great insight into charismatic leaders that warrants 500 pages of wormspeech, exactly? That they can't be trusted? Alright then
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Apr 24, 2019 06:22
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Trust no one, not even yourself.
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Apr 24, 2019 06:27
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I don't think anyone should dive into a 500 page political treatise written by Frank Herbert before they read, say, Capital by Marx E: Here's a very typical passage from God Emperor, highly upvoted on goodreads: “The difference between a good administrator and a bad one is about five heartbeats. Good administrators make immediate choices. […] They usually can be made to work. A bad administrator, on the other hand, hesitates, diddles around, asks for committees, for research and reports. Eventually, he acts in ways which create serious problems. […] “A bad administrator is more concerned with reports than with decisions. He wants the hard record which he can display as an excuse for his errors. […] Oh, they depend on verbal orders. They never lie about what they’ve done if their verbal orders cause problems, and they surround themselves with people able to act wisely on the basis of verbal orders. Often, the most important piece of information is that something has gone wrong. Bad administrators hide their mistakes until it’s too late to make corrections.” It is not interesting. It is a dead simple rant about bureaucrats, likely motivated from frustration. it isn't really philosophy. There is no serious examination of why instinct is better than caution. It's just an assertion. The next paragraph will just continue off on some other rant. This is not a "measured treatise". It's a list of complaints. It goes for 500 pages. The idea that this is the insight of an immortal being is laughable. This stuff is fine in small doses in a space epic because it adds a bit of flavour but when there's nothing else it's just boring. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 06:28
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It might be better to define it as Frank's criticism of both "current" (to him, anyway) political trends, and the systems that create them. Much of what Leto is attempting to do is forcing humanity to think and act differently, to understand how these systems work and how they affect people. Ultimately, I think Frank's point is that people should be more politically aware, both of the leaders they elect or appoint, and the political systems they legitimize. "This is why I teach about tyranny in the best possible way—by example. Even though you read these words after a passage of eons, my tyranny will not be forgotten. My Golden Path assures this. Knowing my message, I expect you to be exceedingly careful about the powers you delegate to any government." Although I feel Frank knew he was fighting something of a losing battle in that regard: "...And the swarms of alienating devices (including these very words!) tend eventually to be enlisted in the argument for a return to “those better times.” I despair of teaching you other ways. You have square thoughts which resist circles."
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Apr 24, 2019 06:43
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Lord Justice posted:It might be better to define it as Frank's criticism of both "current" (to him, anyway) political trends, and the systems that create them. Much of what Leto is attempting to do is forcing humanity to think and act differently, to understand how these systems work and how they affect people. Ultimately, I think Frank's point is that people should be more politically aware, both of the leaders they elect or appoint, and the political systems they legitimize. Hey thanks for clarifying, I haven't read this thing in years and forget the details. I do think the same idea has been expressed better by other people but I'm glad you got a lot out of the book!
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Apr 24, 2019 06:49
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Hey if you enjoyed God Emperor you may really enjoy reading Marx! Check this stuff out it's similar but, imo, better!quote:The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm
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Apr 24, 2019 06:53
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But enough about that what do third stage navigators’ junk look like
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Apr 24, 2019 06:54
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Back to Dune, (not to say that Marx is irrelevant to any conversation about Dune, tho), I always thought that Duncan was kept around for 2 reasons. 1. Duncan was fanatically loyal to Atreides. He could be trusted, and given Frank's views about the heritability of behaviour, his descendants too. 2. He knew this would make Duncan irresistible to the power structures that would follow him, namely Ix, Tleliax, the Guild and especially the Sisterhood, he would be ghola'd again, and would be one of the few people involved in important events susceptable to his prescience. Therefore he would be able to know if the Golden Path continued.
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Apr 24, 2019 07:15
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priznat posted:But enough about that what do third stage navigators’ junk look like diaphanous, with membranes
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Apr 24, 2019 07:17
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I believe the reason he kept bringing Duncan back was as a sort of control factor in his experiment of creating a person who was outside prescience and a society that truly cast off the power structure. Rebellions kept springing up around Duncan, and he knew Duncan wouldn't stand for someone else saying "hey let's just put one of us in Leto's place, I was thinking I would be good at the job." The events of God-Emperor with Siona were something he had been trying to cultivate for thousands of years and he had a lot of time to iterate on what ingredients were getting closer to his desired result.
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Apr 24, 2019 08:10
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priznat posted:But enough about that what do third stage navigators’ junk look like  But it's attached to a fish dudes crotch and cums spice.
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Apr 24, 2019 08:31
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Defiance Industries posted:I believe the reason he kept bringing Duncan back was as a sort of control factor in his experiment of creating a person who was outside prescience and a society that truly cast off the power structure. Rebellions kept springing up around Duncan, and he knew Duncan wouldn't stand for someone else saying "hey let's just put one of us in Leto's place, I was thinking I would be good at the job." The events of God-Emperor with Siona were something he had been trying to cultivate for thousands of years and he had a lot of time to iterate on what ingredients were getting closer to his desired result. Yeah, that too. Also it is explicitly said he uses him to back-breed traits back into the Atreides. I mean he must constitute more than a quarter of the Atreides genetic heritage as of God Emperor
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Apr 24, 2019 09:32
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Amethyst posted:I don't think anyone should dive into a 500 page political treatise written by Frank Herbert before they read, say, Capital by Marx I just remembered my favourite managerial koan from Frank: "Real Boats Rock". I recently got promoted and it is what I think about when I have self-doubt or when I am explaining my actions to superiors.
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Apr 24, 2019 11:30
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SniperWoreConverse posted:diaphanous, with membranes By the webbed junk of Dur!
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Apr 24, 2019 12:46
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witchy posted:
 Txt me.
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Apr 24, 2019 12:54
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The Tleilaxu were expert dildo and fleshlight makers: "Their wares included willing menials, pliant sex toys for any whim, soldiers, generals, philosophers, even an occasional moralist." What I'm asking is, where is my Steersman dildo 
Temaukel fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 13:47
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Temaukel posted:The Tleilaxu were expert dildo and fleshlight makers (not even making that up): I think they’re talking about sex biobots? 
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Apr 24, 2019 13:48
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Schadenboner posted:I think they’re talking about sex biobots? ok, fine. Where's my Steersman sex biobot
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Apr 24, 2019 13:49
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Field of Dreams: Build it and they will cum.
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Apr 24, 2019 14:04
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Amethyst posted:IN god emperor the evil trans-human tyrant who is so transcendent he amuses himself by repeatedly resurrecting and murdering his old companion is killed because....he gets horny and distracted by a good looking young woman? What? Write what you know.
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Apr 24, 2019 14:14
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not just good looking, but puuuuuure
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Apr 24, 2019 18:08
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I thought leto knew about the assassination plot but let it go ahead because that's what the golden path demanded
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Apr 24, 2019 19:34
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Leto II bred Siona to be immune from prescience because he was bored af and tv hadn’t existed for 15,000 years. Gave him something interesting to do. But really it was he’d know it was successful when his attempt to breed one would come back and kill him off. Then he’s no longer needed as humanity is then extinction-proof! So I don’t think he knew about the exact plot just that something was gonna happen that he couldn’t forsee if he had been successful.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:45
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I want to go back to find the part that describes his audience chamber with a transparent floor, underneath which flows water from a diverted river, and fake fish carved from precious gemstones. To visitors, it's just a gaudy decoration, and to him/the Worm, the presence of water inches beneath him fills him with terror and keeps him sharp during talks. But then it becomes clear he also designed it so if he ever got assassinated in that room, the floor would probably shatter and he'd be able to flow into the water supply. Do you think there's any underlying meaning to why he built his little private vacation tower away from underground water, such that if he fell of he'd just die and humanity's future would snuff out? Is that there in case he became overcome with misanthropy and decided "gently caress it, let the Liquid Dinosaur fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 21:43
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https://twitter.com/SecretsOfDune/status/1121448524498055169 Twitter thread on potential breakpoints for Dune 2020
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Apr 25, 2019 17:53
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priznat posted:Leto II bred Siona to be immune from prescience because he was bored af and tv hadn’t existed for 15,000 years. Gave him something interesting to do. Actually, if you read God Emperor again, he appears on holoscreens to his worshippers who can't get good seats in the city of Onn.  Liquid Dinosaur posted:Do you think there's any underlying meaning to why he built his little private vacation tower away from underground water, such that if he fell of he'd just die and humanity's future would snuff out? Is that there in case he became overcome with misanthropy and decided "gently caress it, let the IIRC he hints at it a couple of times when he's being a baby about something or other. Near the end, he leans out over the walkway and just thinking about the plunge shows him the end of humanity.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:04
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do you think because prescience that Leto II can’t enjoy books and poo poo because his ancestors may have read them so he’d end up already knowing the ending and be spoiled?
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Apr 25, 2019 18:16
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leto ii discovering a copy of Dune and letting humanity die out because he intuits that the series would lead to @duneauthor's "writing"
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Apr 25, 2019 18:45
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Princess Irulan is the Samwell Tarly of this universe. Only Sam has more sex, even as a Nightswatch "virgin"
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Apr 25, 2019 18:53
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Irulan and Idaho shippers thread. plz
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Apr 25, 2019 22:31
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Amethyst posted:God help me, I'm getting psyched up for Dennis Villeneuve's Dune after seeing the cast so far very much 
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Apr 25, 2019 22:36
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Tertius Oculum posted:Irulan and Idaho shippers thread. plz I only ship chairdogs with battle pugs
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Apr 25, 2019 23:44
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