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Ilor posted:The underlying assumption that links exploration with colonization is the idea that the area being explored is populated by "primitives" or that it contains resources/people ripe for exploitation. The way to "decolonize" is to break this fundamental assumption - the area you're exploring turns out to be filled with advanced societies that are technologically/magically/culturally superior to your own. Turns out your region is the back-water, that you are the "primitive." Or even that the societies in question are equally powerful in their home regions - Greek and Phoenician colonies are a good example. Cities are founded; and when locals are conquered, the feudal overclass establishes itself, but the common person isn't worse off (or better) under a different flavor of king/aristocracy/whatever.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:17
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evol262 posted:Pretend that D&D colonies are more like Greek or Phoenician. They're outposts in the wilderness, not an overclass subjugating and exploiting the natives for their resources. D&D colonies are less about exploiting the natives (orcs and goblins) and more about genociding them so you can take their land. Less Race for Africa and more USA vs Native Americans.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:26
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i feel like we're meandering from the purpose of the thread, not to put words in the OP's mouth or anything traditional games are unfortunately rife with fellas that flirt so hard with nazism that they both need a wish fulfillment mechanism to play out their unusual fantasies and a harmless-seeming place to engage in them that polite society will overlook - amateur history circles, for e.g., provide another place where someone can (attempt to) pass off their personal obsessions as a legitimate hobby - and these fellas will ultimately bring nothing of substance to these circles since they're more about parasitizing their hobbies by, say, hijacking a discussion aimed describing actual, factual history by forcing their own self-gratifying conceptions on to it no matter how ahistorical those might be fortunately, thanks to the creative nature of most trad games hobbies, and especially all the opportunities for personalizing they offer, it's easy for fascists to out themselves as only coming into the hobby to play out these fantasies, and it makes sense to avoid them as these guys hardly belong anyway since they're not coming in with the same spirit or intention as everyone else, and it's also a good thread idea because there are dramatic examples of dumb wehraboo poo poo that gets posted online that we can dump on within this context there's also roles for enablers - dudes that otherwise see the same obvious signals fascists put out that we can see but they willingly roll with it by accepting or encouraging it it does seem, however, a bit beyond the scope of the thread to start bringing in broader political discussions about american conservatism/religious fundamentalism and their bizarre relationships with the far right since that seems like a more nuanced discussion for another place to sort out
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Apr 24, 2019 19:27
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hard counter posted:it does seem, however, a bit beyond the scope of the thread to start bringing in broader political discussions about american conservatism/religious fundamentalism and their bizarre relationships with the far right since that seems like a more nuanced discussion for another place to sort out That will get this thread closed.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:30
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Can I nominate “anyone who is really, REALLY into Gary Gygax as a person as, not a fascist as such, but deeply weird and likely fash adjacent?
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Apr 24, 2019 19:36
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There are better places to discuss people who are just weird, probably, but it's not my call. Why is Gygax fash-adjacent?
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Apr 24, 2019 19:41
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Deified Data posted:There are better places to discuss people who are just weird, probably, but it's not my call. Dude was an insane far-right libertarian who peppered his work with a bunch of extremely weird dogwhistles. For example, lich phylacteries are very much meant to be Jewish tefillin, and in fact are described as looking identical to them in early editions where they show up.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:52
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You learn something new ever day.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:54
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Mors Rattus posted:Dude was an insane far-right libertarian who peppered his work with a bunch of extremely weird dogwhistles. I mean lots of people celebrate him as the guy who invented (well really got credit for inventing) tabletop rpgs, but, uh, the guy gave the massacre of Wounded Knee as an example of how paladins should treat the baby orc problem.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:02
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Mors Rattus posted:Dude was an insane far-right libertarian who peppered his work with a bunch of extremely weird dogwhistles. I don’t mean to press too much on this, but do you have other examples on this one? I think that the term was also used to refer to reliquaries for parts of saints. Isn’t there also a specific distinguishing between the devotional box version and the lich version? Like, I vaguely recall that distinction getting called out in the Encyclopedia Magica, though I’m probably wrong and am half-remembering. Would totally buy that there’s other dogwhistles in early material, though.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:02
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Hedningen posted:I don’t mean to press too much on this, but do you have other examples on this one? I think that the term was also used to refer to reliquaries for parts of saints. Isn’t there also a specific distinguishing between the devotional box version and the lich version? Like, I vaguely recall that distinction getting called out in the Encyclopedia Magica, though I’m probably wrong and am half-remembering. https://twitter.com/FreyjaErlings/status/1106279415825293314 Here's a quote from a Forgotten Realms source at least, and an AD&D one.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:16
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Hedningen posted:I don’t mean to press too much on this, but do you have other examples on this one? I think that the term was also used to refer to reliquaries for parts of saints. Isn’t there also a specific distinguishing between the devotional box version and the lich version? Like, I vaguely recall that distinction getting called out in the Encyclopedia Magica, though I’m probably wrong and am half-remembering. The way we have whole subhuman races that are there to be killed and their stuff taken is a pretty big tell. I'd also put up the inherently evil elf race being black skinned too, but that's also been discussed to death.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:17
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The Drow originated in D&D, right?
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Apr 24, 2019 20:19
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Yeah, I’m clearly misremembering drawing the distinction, then: thanks for the quick sourcing on all of this.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:19
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moths posted:The Drow originated in D&D, right? Yup. They have a little mythological backing, but it's 95% Gygax's hosed up head.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:24
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rkajdi posted:Yup. They have a little mythological backing, but it's 95% Gygax's hosed up head. Their mythological background is dwarves, so other than being magical and underground, they are mostly Gygax.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:28
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I think Gygax would have been raised Mormon back when the church was funny* about black people. (*terrible)
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Apr 24, 2019 20:49
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moths posted:I think Gygax would have been raised Mormon back when the church was funny* about black people. While there are a ton of Mormons in hobby gaming iirc Gary was Jehovah`s Witness most of his life with some time as a Methodist. Also we have to note 70s and 80s Gary was hella different than end of his life decade Gary who was more like a kindly grandpa who learned from his gently caress ups and gently caress overs. (Probably no cocaine either. It makes for bad things in writers. Unearthed Arcana? THAT SCENE in "It"? Stay away from the nose candy folks!) But values and what is considered acceptable changes over time. And even by the early 90s SSI knew Drow might need a few tweaks:  I mean they are more or less Marvel Comics Norse Dark Elves to start with but SSI was probably smarter at making them purple and blue skinned while RA Salvatore was making them Evil Capitalist Libertarians but still religious in his books. poo poo evolves over time. Because this book came out around the same time from Games Workshop and... uhh.. HONEY NO. SWEETIE WHAT THE gently caress WERE YOU THINKING?  
Captain Rufus fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 21:07
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It's easy to see how historical games attract them, but high fantasy and postapocalyptic settings are all about reverence for the Lost and Better Days, which is pretty much meat and drink to a particular sort of person.
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Apr 24, 2019 22:42
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Captain Rufus posted:While there are a ton of Mormons in hobby gaming iirc Gary was Jehovah`s Witness most of his life with some time as a Methodist. Also we have to note 70s and 80s Gary was hella different than end of his life decade Gary who was more like a kindly grandpa who learned from his gently caress ups and gently caress overs. (Probably no cocaine either. It makes for bad things in writers. Unearthed Arcana? THAT SCENE in "It"? Stay away from the nose candy folks!) Wasn’t late-in-life Gary Gygax talking about how Iron Age Anglo-Saxon legal punishments were and example of Good-aligned D&D behavior? He probably got a lot better as he aged, but I’m pretty sure he was still kind of a weirdo online.
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Apr 24, 2019 22:47
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Madurai posted:It's easy to see how historical games attract them, but high fantasy and postapocalyptic settings are all about reverence for the Lost and Better Days, which is pretty much meat and drink to a particular sort of person. I'm a big fan of Twilight 2000 1st edition, the themes of adventures frequently involved bringing about the downfall of a crypto-fascist "New American" society. They were called Airlords of the Ozarks, Urban Guerrila, and another one or two I'm blanking on where you assassinate or arrest the leader of New America. And I know Fallout is a video game but it also seems pretty alright about bashing groups like The Brotherhood, The Enclave, The Institute for being basically fascists. Even the NCR is heavily criticized as acting the same as the old ineffective and violent governments from before the war. That's all my experience with post apocalyptic RPGs though, the rest of them could be praising McCarthyism and the 4th of July unironically for all I know.
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Apr 24, 2019 23:44
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I'm currently running Twilight 2k and it's frankly amazing how anti-war it manages to be for an 80s RPG about soldiers.
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Apr 24, 2019 23:48
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I don't care if the whole Jeremy Hambeast debacle was staged or not, because the thought of that bug-eyed, wispy-haired shitlord getting loving clocked brings a smile to my face.PinheadSlim posted:And I know Fallout is a video game but it also seems pretty alright about bashing groups like The Brotherhood, The Enclave, The Institute for being basically fascists. Even the NCR is heavily criticized as acting the same as the old ineffective and violent governments from before the war. Ulysses was right
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Apr 25, 2019 00:50
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moths posted:I'm currently running Twilight 2k and it's frankly amazing how anti-war it manages to be for an 80s RPG about soldiers. I'm fascinated by the idea that people are playing Twilight 2000 now. Can you talk more about your experiences with it, and what sold you and your group on playing it? Possibly in the Chat thread?
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Apr 25, 2019 03:59
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PinheadSlim posted:And I know Fallout is a video game but it also seems pretty alright about bashing groups like The Brotherhood, The Enclave, The Institute for being basically fascists. Even the NCR is heavily criticized as acting the same as the old ineffective and violent governments from before the war. This depends very heavily on if you're talking OG Fallout (Fallout 1/2/New Vegas) or Bethesda Fallout, as the latter throws away almost all of this in favor of unabashed rah rah America is great dumbfuckery. It's real close to the whole thing of early 40k as a parody, modern 40k as an unironic worship of fascism and fascist aesthetics.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:10
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ProfessorCirno posted:This depends very heavily on if you're talking OG Fallout (Fallout 1/2/New Vegas) or Bethesda Fallout, as the latter throws away almost all of this in favor of unabashed rah rah America is great dumbfuckery. It's real close to the whole thing of early 40k as a parody, modern 40k as an unironic worship of fascism and fascist aesthetics. Kinda sorta. Minutemen on the surface seem to be perfect and pure but right before the game starts almost all of them go full raider. The Institute are the obvious bad guys because of robot racism and something literally called The Railroad are the obvious good guys. Bethesda kicked up the 50s aesthetic to 1,000 but even in their games the terminals in even the most basic of buildings like grade schools and cola factories highlight the evils of American society pre-war, with things like McCarthyism and racism towards the Chinese. Wasn't there even a massive questline in Fallout 4 about a corporate espionage war between Vim and Nuka Cola? And don't forget the Enclave are still the evil villains of Fallout 3. I just don't see where you're seeing pro-American lore in the games other than the Minutemen, mind pointing some out? Kestral posted:I'm fascinated by the idea that people are playing Twilight 2000 now. Can you talk more about your experiences with it, and what sold you and your group on playing it? Possibly in the Chat thread? This also. It's so rare to get a game going for me, the last time I tried I ended up flaking because of real life drama but I'm itching to play again. Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 05:52
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PinheadSlim posted:Kinda sorta. Minutemen on the surface seem to be perfect and pure but right before the game starts almost all of them go full raider. The Institute are the obvious bad guys because of robot racism and something literally called The Railroad are the obvious good guys. In fallout three they literally say that China shot first. Fallout 4 made the brotherhood morally ambiguous anti-heros. They didn’t get rid of all of the black comedy, satire, or grim view of America, but they heavily toned it down. Edit: The main character of 4 is literally a US soldier who is treated as a grizzled 1980’s action hero type soldier instead of a cheerful mass murderer.
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Apr 25, 2019 06:02
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Someone posted this a week or so ago on reddit. The article is old stuff, a commentary on recent White Wolf products. https://www.beastsofwar.com/featured/blood-culture-world-of-darkness-community/ But if you scroll down to the comments, the first one stands out, as the poster says, 'As an advocate of National Socialism i take it as a personal offence to be referred to as “Heinous” as though it is a matter of fact that National Socialism is heinous and not just someones opinion.' And the rest of his post is pretty much an elaboration of that. Some people respond in the way you'd imagine people responding to a declaration like that. I -figure- that this thread is more based around mentioning people who are more involved with the tg community than just your average thread poster, but the dude goes on later to post a link to what is a thoroughly debunked but otherwise glowing biography of Hitler called the Greatest Story Never Told (summarized here: https://imgur.com/gallery/nUtifYK). And it's not the only place on the site he's posted the link. It's not a big social forum like SA, and it's entirely possible the admin are just not reading the comments (most of which are just like 'Yeah I like your work') but this guy seems like he's trying to spread the word and convert people. EDIT: Figured best way to deal with it would just be to give the forum runners a heads up about the links (they probably fall under the anti-advertising rules). nofather fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 06:13
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nofather posted:Someone posted this a week or so ago on reddit. The article is old stuff, a commentary on recent White Wolf products. I tweeted at them so we'll see what happens. Beasts of War had a similar thing a while ago where they posted an interview with James Hewitt's wife and some chud immediately started going in on her for
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Apr 25, 2019 06:43
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PinheadSlim posted:I'm a big fan of Twilight 2000 1st edition, the themes of adventures frequently involved bringing about the downfall of a crypto-fascist "New American" society. They were called Airlords of the Ozarks, Urban Guerrila, and another one or two I'm blanking on where you assassinate or arrest the leader of New America. Old Fallout hates all its factions and makes it clear that the old world was responsible for its own destruction. Bethesda thinks the crypto-fascist xenophobic Brotherhood Of Steel are the protagonists.
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Apr 25, 2019 07:35
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Liquid Communism posted:Old Fallout hates all its factions and makes it clear that the old world was responsible for its own destruction. jakodee posted:Fallout 4 made the brotherhood morally ambiguous anti-heros. They didn’t get rid of all of the black comedy, satire, or grim view of America, but they heavily toned it down. Y'all know the original Fallout has an ending where the BoS stops being assholes and starts sharing tech and begin helping wastelanders, making them good guys in the end of an original Fallout? And I thought Fallout 3 also suggested the Aliens orchestrated the whole nuclear war during Mothership Zeta? I guess Elder Maxson isn't wearing a red armband, but in every other way he's portrayed as an obvious fascist and not a good person. Just bring along your favorite Synth detective around him and tell me that's a protagonist.
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Apr 25, 2019 11:41
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PinheadSlim posted:Y'all know the original Fallout has an ending where the BoS stops being assholes and starts sharing tech and begin helping wastelanders, making them good guys in the end of an original Fallout? Yeah, then they retconned the FO1 ending it by having the FO3 Brotherhood be an isolationist splinter who left because of that, and those are the guys you see in FO4, and 76. NV is a different isolationist splinter.
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Apr 25, 2019 12:18
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nofather posted:EDIT: Figured best way to deal with it would just be to give the forum runners a heads up about the links (they probably fall under the anti-advertising rules). Yeah, this. Hopefully it leads to stuff like: Corrode posted:I tweeted at them so we'll see what happens. Beasts of War had a similar thing a while ago where they posted an interview with James Hewitt's wife and some chud immediately started going in on her for
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Apr 25, 2019 15:42
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I emailed Green Stuff World twice about the Nazi symbology on their roller, then mentioned them in a friendly tweet, but still they seem to be sitting on it. I'm unsure if this means they just don't have functional customer support or engage with social media ever (which seems highly unlikely) or if they're just ducking a difficult question. I keep giving them all the outs they could ask for, like maybe someone got one in under the radar or it was all an accident, but they're not biting. Anyone else want to get at them on twitter in case they're just hoping to ignore a single guy with no followers?
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Apr 25, 2019 17:24
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Deified Data posted:Anyone else want to get at them on twitter in case they're just hoping to ignore a single guy with no followers? I can. Link the tweet please.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:17
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nofather posted:Someone posted this a week or so ago on reddit. The article is old stuff, a commentary on recent White Wolf products. Posted about this on page 1. The author, Chris Handley does still give Warren poo poo after it and sent me a message about his disappointment in Warren's "mealy-mouthed" response. So Handley can probably be counted as one of the "Goods" if you ask me. edit: Also nofather, balls to the "Admin" not seeing it. Warren Johnston, the person in question telling folks to settle down. The editor in chief of On Tabletop/Beasts of War. https://www.linkedin.com/in/warrenjohnstonbeastsofwar Brock Samsonite fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 18:18
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Brock Samsonite posted:Posted about this on page 1. The author, Chris Handley does still give Warren poo poo after it and sent me a message about his disappointment in Warren's "mealy-mouthed" response. So Hamby can probably be counted as one of the "Goods" if you ask me. I'm assuming this is a typo for Handley  No response from beastsofwar yet on Twitter.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:21
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Corrode posted:I'm assuming this is a typo for Handley Edit: I am a dumb, yes typo. Can only read about Jeremy Hamby so much in this thread apparently. Brock Samsonite fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 18:23
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Cat Face Joe posted:I can. Link the tweet please. https://twitter.com/deifieddata/status/1121124453184933893
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Apr 25, 2019 18:32
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Try posting it on their Facebook page as well? This would be bad publicity and it will definitely get a response from them.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:53
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