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cheetah7071 posted:There's been 3 or so bad episodes so far in the orville and unfortunately one of them is the pilot So noted, I'll watch S1E2 tonight and get back to you.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:47
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Both of those things are pretty much gone by the end of the first season. Rebels ended up being an extremely good show with some of the best Force mythology since Empire Strikes Back. That first season is just slow as hell. I don't care how dumb the initial decision to bring Darth Maul back was, the final duel between him and Obi-Wan was goddamned perfect.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:48
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Snow Cone Capone posted:I don't care how dumb the initial decision to bring Darth Maul back was, the final duel between him and Obi-Wan was goddamned perfect. It really is. It’s some kind of bizarre twist of fate that the best part of both Rebels and Clone Wars was the redemption of a disposable non-character from the worst movie in the franchise.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:55
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The Orville pilot isn’t bad, just boring and run of the mill. Now the zoo episode, that’s a bad episode.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:58
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I will now fight you over "worst movie in the franchise" on the honor of the mere existence of Duel of the Fates.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:58
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jng2058 posted:That's the trouble, isn't it? For awhile there, Star Trek was something else. A vision of the future, a utopian dream, something that inspired us and made us want to aspire to. Now, it's just a brand. And not even a very good one anymore. As others have pointed out, it's always been a "brand". Problem really is that it's become a tired brand. It's a brand that has been desperately trying to chase that high of being actually-mainstream-popular of TNG ever since it went off the air, to various degrees of success, but nobody is super eager to sit down and watch whatever Trek flavor of the month. Even a movie series reboot couldn't grab people to see the latest Trek films (I think? Beyond didn't do so hot and last I read a new Trek film in that reboot was kiboshed).
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Apr 25, 2019 02:59
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Orv posted:I will now fight you over "worst movie in the franchise" on the honor of the mere existence of Duel of the Fates. I know, I know. In reality the worst is probably AOTC, but I loving loved all the ship stuff and the clone battle as a kid. Plus, it has Christopher Lee!
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Apr 25, 2019 03:01
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I give the prequels far more latitude than they deserve based solely on the quality of the fight choreography and absolutely nothing else so I'm hardly blameless. Though to be fair I'm not really a Star Wars person at all so I don't have the slavering rage about their quality as anything other than bad movies in the first place.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:02
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HD DAD posted:I will say one of the things Disco gets right is having a fuckton of women being front and center and kicking rear end. Kelly, Alara, and Talla would like a word with you. Dr. Finn is also awesome Orv posted:So noted, I'll watch S1E2 tonight and get back to you. S1E2 is still a little rough - too much Ed/Kelly. Go for S1E3 (the first of the Moclan episodes) or skip ahead to S1E10 for a bizarre, funny, and scary episode. The Moclan episodes are the only real continuing plot in the show, they're all about gender issues and are also great excuses to give Bortus and Klyden a lot of screen time. S1E10 is Alara dealing with her insecurities, conquering her fears, and has guest appearances by two Trek alumni (only one of whom you'll recognize). Now that I peek at IMDB, both of my recommendations are directed by Brannon Braga. Oh, and mom loves Orville and I wouldn't waste her time on Discovery, she'd hate it.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:06
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mllaneza posted:...has guest appearances by two Trek alumni (only one of whom you'll recognize). I'm having a hard time not taking this as a challenge like some kind of gigantic nerd.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:08
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Orv posted:I'm having a hard time not taking this as a challenge like some kind of gigantic nerd. 2 episodes ago we got an episode directed by a TNG alum (Frakes), written by a TNG alum (Joe Menosky, 33 TNG/4 DS9/37 VOY eps, including Darmok) and featuring 3 other Trek alumni (Marina Sirtis, F. Murray Abraham and Ron Canada) in an episode where the Spaceship Captain gives a Rousing Diplomatic Speech in front of the e: 4 alumni if you count the fact that Penny Jerald is a main character
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Apr 25, 2019 03:16
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Snow Cone Capone posted:2 episodes ago we got an episode directed by a TNG alum (Frakes), written by a TNG alum (Joe Menosky, 33 TNG/4 DS9/37 VOY eps, including Darmok) and featuring 3 other Trek alumni (Marina Sirtis, F. Murray Abraham and Ron Canada) in an episode where the Spaceship Captain gives a Rousing Diplomatic Speech in front of the You missed Tony Todd in the list of star trek alums in that episode
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Apr 25, 2019 03:20
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cheetah7071 posted:You missed Tony Todd in the list of star trek alums in that episode Oh yeah poo poo, 5! Tony Todd is just so iconic as Candyman I always forget he was Kurn
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Apr 25, 2019 03:32
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Tony Todd is basically an everything alum now. I just assume he’s done work in every major franchise.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:35
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Snow Cone Capone posted:dur hur that's a dumb fart joke and not exactly the kind of silly poo poo Worf would say/do pretty often I literally don't remember the last fart joke in The Orville, has there even been a single one in season 2? There have to be a lot of them for it to come up this often, right? It's not just people making disparaging remarks based on mistaken assumptions or, at best, the pilot? Edit: also I hope all those concerned about the inappropriate or lowbrow nature of fart jokes aren't Farscape fans. Winifred Madgers fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 04:13
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Baronjutter posted:Bortus carries like 50% of Orville on his own, easily. Is this guy the ship's Brock Samson
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Apr 25, 2019 04:17
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:I literally don't remember the last fart joke in The Orville, has there even been a single one in season 2? There have to be a lot of them for it to come up this often, right? It's not just people making disparaging remarks based on mistaken assumptions or, at best, the pilot? The last couple of pages, and the similar derail last week, should be enough evidence that the majority of it really is just hate on Seth. And I kiiind of get it, really. I hated the dude. Ted was garbage, I didn't like Family Guy even when it started out, etc. etc. Hell, I'll even agree that he's got a punchable face on Orville. But there really isn't much at all in the way of toilet humor. Some of the funnier bits, especially from S1, may be kind of juvenile, but they're not lowbrow garbage humor. The Isaac-Gordon prank war is genuinely a hoot, the Bortus smoking thing is solid, etc. Importantly, the less "intellectual" humor like that rarely gets in the way of the actual plot.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:21
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The toilet humor is fine! that's not what's goddamn wrong with it!
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Apr 25, 2019 04:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Is this guy the ship's Brock Samson No, this guy is https://twitter.com/theorville/status/1083815811008155648?lang=en
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Apr 25, 2019 04:22
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Pick posted:The toilet humor is fine! that's not what's goddamn wrong with it! Ok but you're literally the only one here who's claiming that. The only arguments that have really been made have been about the humor and about MacFarlane. I'd legit like to hear and potentially respond to your argument but you haven't told us what your argument is.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:24
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It's ok to not like Orville. Pick also doesn't like Avery Brooks as Sisko. Sometimes taste is deeply personal and silly to argue about. I really like Orville, I thought I'd hate it, I thought I'd never be able to hear Seth's voice or see his smug face and beady little eyes without thoughts of violence flooding my brain. Hell, I didn't like the show at all for a good chunk of the first season but I kept watching it for some reason. Maybe I developed Helsinki Syndrome, maybe the show just found its footing and got way better, but I think it's a good fun show and good scifi that quite often has very trek-like messages and "takes" on subjects while I've found Discovery is just contrived drama, explosions, and spocks all the way down.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:36
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I'm gonna watch S1E10 on that recommendation but having watched E3 I think it's not for me. It's not even that McFarlane's humor is juvenile or frequently overly self-explanatory, I just don't like his style at all. I definitely admit some bias from his other works but from the go with the dance-off and stuff like that, I just don't think that kind of absurdism (or whatever the technical term is, I'm bad at technical classifications, unexpected-isms?) is all that funny.  E: Also the humor aside, which is hard given how entwined it is, I don't think the dialogue is particularly good. Orv fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 04:38
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Snow Cone Capone posted:Ok but you're literally the only one here who's claiming that. The only arguments that have really been made have been about the humor and about MacFarlane. I'd legit like to hear and potentially respond to your argument but you haven't told us what your argument is. I have, multiple times, including on this page! e: the last page
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Apr 25, 2019 04:38
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Pick posted:It has nothing to do with Picard at all. It has to do with conflict framing. I could have said the same thing using DS9, TOS, or even goddamn Voyager. TOS fleshes out the conflict, and then derives a conclusion from the conflict. The Orville arrives with its conclusion intact, and then constructs a strawman conflict that is resolved with this pre-packaged political perspective, in the process never having been credibly challenged or explored.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:43
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people comparing DISCO vs orville on matters of writing or whatehaveyou when the only question that matters is which ship would win in a fight
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Apr 25, 2019 04:43
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Orv posted:I'm gonna watch S1E10 on that recommendation but having watched E3 I think it's not for me. It's not even that McFarlane's humor is juvenile or frequently overly self-explanatory, I just don't like his style at all. I definitely admit some bias from his other works but from the go with the dance-off and stuff like that, I just don't think that kind of absurdism (or whatever the technical term is, I'm bad at technical classifications, unexpected-isms?) is all that funny. No one can ask for a fairer shot than you're giving it; if it's not your thing, its not your thing.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:43
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Pick posted:I have, multiple times, including on this page! Pick I got no grudges against you but the only 3 posts you made about it were: Pick posted:It's not at all about McFarlane and all about essentially preaching pseudo-enlightened California douche male values without the kind of legitimate insight that Star Trek is made of Pick posted:all the women star trek fannes i know love discovery and all hate the orville so the orville is actually a super handy dumping ground for fake trek fans (i.e. men) Pick posted:The toilet humor is fine! that's not what's goddamn wrong with it! and sorry but the first one is just a series of buzzwords without much real substance, IMO, the 2nd one is just  and the 3rd one isn't an argument.Aside from the fact that MacFarlane's character is a pretty big douche at times, what's your actual beef?
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Apr 25, 2019 04:43
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MisterBibs posted:As others have pointed out, it's always been a "brand". Problem really is that it's become a tired brand. It's a brand that has been desperately trying to chase that high of being actually-mainstream-popular of TNG ever since it went off the air, to various degrees of success, but nobody is super eager to sit down and watch whatever Trek flavor of the month. Even a movie series reboot couldn't grab people to see the latest Trek films (I think? Beyond didn't do so hot and last I read a new Trek film in that reboot was kiboshed). I maintain that Abrams hosed it up by letting Damon "Faith actually wins in Lost and heaven is real" Lindelhof write a script(Into Darkness). On top of that, it was really loving dumb to make a movie about Kahn and then aggressively pretend it wasn't about Kahn, but fighting reptiles on a desert planet. Honestly gently caress Into Darkness. Star Trek isn't going to get mainstream popular again because it's something everyone knows, but not everyone likes. The fact that Enterprise pissed lots of people off didn't help.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:43
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Tony Todd is basically an everything alum now. I just assume he’s done work in every major franchise. He's also the guy who really lit the fire that made all the smoke that caused people, even some of the true believers, to start realizing that Axanar was a massive scam. Edit: TheDiceMustRoll posted:I maintain that Abrams hosed it up by letting Damon "Faith actually wins in Lost and heaven is real" Lindelhof write a script(Into Darkness). Damon Lindelof being the Internet's bogeyman will never, ever cease to make me laugh. Timby fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 04:44
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Snow Cone Capone posted:
It's not buzzwords and there's another one of my posts I quoted about it that make it pretty clear. Or to phrase it again in a third way, quote:What I see as the biggest difference, though, is one that doesn’t seem to be mentioned often but one is hugely indicative of the times and of audience.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:45
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Pick posted:It's not buzzwords and there's another one of my posts I quoted about it that make it pretty clear. It's not a fleshed out argument, and I appreciate the post you just quoted but I hope you can understand the fact that I don't remember a post you made in January! Orv posted:I'm gonna watch S1E10 on that recommendation but having watched E3 I think it's not for me. It's not even that McFarlane's humor is juvenile or frequently overly self-explanatory, I just don't like his style at all. I definitely admit some bias from his other works but from the go with the dance-off and stuff like that, I just don't think that kind of absurdism (or whatever the technical term is, I'm bad at technical classifications, unexpected-isms?) is all that funny. Son of Sam-I-Am posted:No one can ask for a fairer shot than you're giving it; if it's not your thing, its not your thing. 
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Apr 25, 2019 04:47
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In what sense is the difference between a conflict that exists to explore the process of conflict resolution and a conflict that exists as a morality play for a pre-existing political stance not clear? They're literally opposites.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:48
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Timby posted:
Why
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Apr 25, 2019 04:49
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Pick posted:In what sense is the difference between a conflict that exists to explore the process of conflict resolution and a conflict that exists as a morality play for a pre-existing political stance not clear? They're literally opposites. That's not what I was responding to. I was responding to this specific post: Pick posted:It's not at all about McFarlane and all about essentially preaching pseudo-enlightened California douche male values without the kind of legitimate insight that Star Trek is made of Which is not at all what you just said. What you just said is an extension of a post which, again, you made in January, and I did not remember. Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 04:50
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It's the same point. There's a super specific set of core values (really stances, since they're not generally argued from a coherent philosophical position) that belong to a subset of the Star Trek audience that The Orville panders to. Meanwhile, every real Star Trek series has episodes where characters make choices at least some subset of the audience doesn't agree with, because legitimate conflicts are being explored and in reality people have a variety of nuanced perspectives on complex moral issues, like whether the crystalline entity should survive.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:52
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I don't really disagree with that characterization of The Orville's moral conundrums with the possible exception of the late season two moclan episodes though I would challenge the notion that Star Trek doesn't also engage in it.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:52
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Pick posted:It's the same point. There's a super specific set of core values (really stances, since they're not generally argued from a coherent philosophical position) that belong to a subset of the Star Trek audience that The Orville panders to. Meanwhile, every real Star Trek series has episodes where characters make choices at least some subset of the audience doesn't agree with, because legitimate conflicts are being explored and in reality people have a variety of nuanced perspectives on complex moral issues, like whether the crystalline entity should survive. lol ok you're right that's totally a point you can glean from "pseudo-enlightened California douche male values without the kind of legitimate insight that Star Trek is made of" Give me a break Pick.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:53
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Pick posted:In what sense is the difference between a conflict that exists to explore the process of conflict resolution and a conflict that exists as a morality play for a pre-existing political stance not clear? They're literally opposites.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:55
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cheetah7071 posted:I don't really disagree with that characterization of The Orville's moral conundrums with the possible exception of the late season two moclan episodes though I would challenge the notion that Star Trek doesn't also engage in it. Having watched the DS9 school episode this morning and the Orville transgender episode just now I think this is fairly spot on. E: I should probably clarify just to be safe that the Orville episode was right all the way down but the way they resolved a lot of it was very, artificial.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:56
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Pick posted:In what sense is the difference between a conflict that exists to explore the process of conflict resolution and a conflict that exists as a morality play for a pre-existing political stance not clear? They're literally opposites. To be clear, are you saying Discovery does this the way old Trek does? I mean that is a legitimate gripe one can level at certain episodes of The Orville, and I would say they are among the poorer ones, although I would argue a good deal of the Moclan episodes and some others like Gordon's rescued POW friend are a lot more thorny.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:56
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