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I said control was intriguing, but since you can't actually play as one and drive around nuking assholes it's useless. Red all the way 
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Apr 25, 2019 03:07
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I dunno, telling star kid and his forced choices to get hosed is pretty good. "Go ahead. kill all my friends, you ai oval office. Civilization as we know it will end because you're too loving stupid to change." The actual dialogue is more along the lines of:  I can't choose! this is too hard! you can't make me! I dont wanna!
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Apr 25, 2019 03:18
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SgtSteel91 posted:Honestly, I think I got so invested into the series that with that ending and visiting those forums afterwards got me into a bad headspace for daring to like the Red ending just point out how destroy is canonically (make sure you say canonically, it drives people nuts) the choice Shepard has been fighting for since the very first interaction she had with a reaper back on Virmire beat them at their own game  SubponticatePoster posted:I said control was intriguing, but since you can't actually play as one and drive around nuking assholes it's useless. Red all the way someone out there made a compelling case for synthesis but it was literally a very talented author saying they thought they could do something cool with it. So for that author (N.K. Jemisin?) and that author alone, far as I can tell, it might - might - be true. sure wasn't for the rest of us! My main problem with control is you've had three games worth of people trying to control the reapers and getting completely ruined for it in every possible way. If the ending had done anything to address that - invented any reason to make it even potentially true that "nah, this time it's different unlike Saren, TIM, everyone who's ever been indoctrinated ever, etc..." - then maybe. Psion fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 03:26
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You don't choose Destroy because the Reapers need to go or because Shep survives, you take Destroy to cock-block Joker. Stop trying to gently caress my ship, Joker! 
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Apr 25, 2019 03:41
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grack posted:You don't choose Destroy because the Reapers need to go or because Shep survives, you take Destroy to cock-block Joker.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:00
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Man watching the ending again really makes me remeber how bad the writing of the entire ending is, seriously go huff more farts you talentless hacks.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:15
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I tended to pick green just because of the whole "Oh you don't like our ending? Fine we'll kill EDI and the Geth and the Quarians! Hah! gently caress you embrace transhumanism!" thing. My choice already made next to no difference, I'll pick the one where my friends don't die.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:17
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The only thing about the ending I like is the music, really. I like that piece that plays during the convo with the AI, it's all spacey and kinda eerie. It's a shame the one scene it's used in is total bullshit. "An End..." and the Faunts song that play over the credits (not here tho :P) are really neat too. It's kinda lousy and while i'm glad I didn't have to put up with how abrupt the original one is, you can also tell it's still just an rear end pull. I also never knew that you could fail if you just sat there and didn't pick anything after the convo was over. I never really tried that, because your movement speed is so fuckin slow that just walking around to make your choice feels like an ordeal in and of itself, so I never gave it any thought. Night10194 posted:I think the most galling part of all this is you're just supposed to accept everything the little poo poo (who is, by his own admission, the avatar of your enemies) says as inevitable and true. This is what annoys me about the ending more than anything else, which i'm sure other people have beaten to death over and over again on this forum and elsewhere. Still though: the writing staff wants you to take everything the AI says as gospel (and writes it as such), when there's absolutely no reason for Shepard to take anything it says in good faith, and if the ending choices had reflected that you could be tricked into picking an ending that's favourable to the Reapers (IE pick Control and you end up indoctrinated outright like TIM, Saren et al before you did).. well, it'd still suck, because the whole setup of the ending is completely wack. But it'd kinda underline the idea that the Reapers would use pretty much every trick against Shepard and co's cycle so you'd have to be careful at least, in theory.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:20
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I believe the current theory is that Shepard was slowly being indoctrinated throughout the entire series, and that's why she kinda accepted what the annoying little shitstain was telling her. Also it explains why all the ending choices seem to be noticeably color-coded - green (synthesis) for the Reapers' preferred ending, blue (control) for okay for the Reapers, red (destroy) for the one they don't want. Or... the writing was just lovely. grack fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 04:26
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I picked the green sparks because it was the choice the game very clearly signaled as "good end" and I am a sucker that way. God, all of them are extraordinarily unsatisfying though. I just can't loving buy the premise that AI and Organic life are fundamentally incompatible, and it such a loving copout that all the AI we know post ME1 are only able to achieve "real sentience" via reaper code that also makes them vulnerable to red sparks. All the way up to this point, Mass Effect has been a game pretty consistently about peoples struggling for autonomy. The Geth rebelled against the Quarians and then the Reapers. The Krogan fight for reproductive freedom. The fatal flaw of the Prothean empire was their rigid hierarchy. The greatest weapon of the reapers is indoctrination. Throughout ME3 your Raison d'être has been, by hook or by crook, bringing people together. It even applies on the personal level. Jack struggled to create a future free from her past, Miranda and Grunt from their fathers, Garrus from The Rules, Man. Like people said upthread, control of other people is textually obviously bad or ineffective. That goes all the way up to this one dumb scene. At this point you're asked to choose for everyone, and for the first time in the whole series, you can't choose freedom, not really. You pick organics, either through killing everyone or by enslaving all AI forever, or you just force a change on everyone, with a really weird hint of like, mind control or personality implanting or something to it. It doesn't fit with the text of the game. Sure, Garrus talks big about "the cold calculus of war" and Anderson and Hacket are always telling you about how many people are sacrificing themselves or whatever, but that's not happens when you're playing. Every time, you can get the best of both worlds. I think that's what synthesis is supposed to be, but it doesn't feel supported by the game. EDI learns to be a person, and we see the beauty of the inside of a Geth cluster, but where do carbon folk learn to come together as a gestalt like silicon types? Why is every step forward for the Geth about becoming more and more individual if the future is about sharing organic and synthetic traits? Why is basically every experiment about cyborgs evil crazy bullshit? Everyone has already written words on why the ends are bad, and probably said this exact thing better but goddamn. The ends are bad because they don't flow convincingly from the rest of the game.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:59
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my first Shep was all Paragon and when I was going through this ending I was like "wait...why is Destroy the Renegade option? I've spent the last 2 games doing everything in my power to destroy the Reapers and now that is considered the 'bad' option? Alright then, time to become God Emperor of the Milky Way then" I think every Shep since then has been Destroy, except one gimmick Shep that went Synergy
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Apr 25, 2019 05:09
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I appreciate that in the end, the only way Shepard knows how to interact with things is by shooting them.
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Apr 25, 2019 06:30
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I don't even remember what I picked, because in addition to all the other stupidity, the choices aren't labeled when you interact with them. I think I just stumbled forward until I hit something that I could 'use', so I went with that.
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Apr 25, 2019 07:12
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I also hate how the AI basically just goes “LALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” if you try to point out that you helped the Quarians and Geth make peace in the EC, and Shepard just... Drops it.
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Apr 25, 2019 07:21
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I think my favorite part in all of this is that for all the going on about preservation, there's no sign of what's been preserved. Outside of, what, two named ships and three size classes - Reapers are interchangeable and expendable. Yeah, alright, send these irreplaceable preservation arks straight into battle, even though they already use nonsentient machines to do more detailed work. Excellent work preserving, dumbshit AI. Bravo. If it weren't for the Leviathans being there I'd be more inclined to think that preservation's actually a thin cover for "this is just how Reapers gently caress," and lemme tell you, third person shooters have since gotten much bolder with Starships That gently caress. Sair posted:I appreciate that in the end, the only way Shepard knows how to interact with things is by shooting them.
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Apr 25, 2019 08:18
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That would have been really easy for it to tell you that it cannot be accepted as normal but as a one off only possible due to the Reapers themselves and that they were literally with a minute of genociding each other until they were forced to step down by Legion and Shepherd.
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Apr 25, 2019 08:18
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I picked Control the first time I played because I didn't want to kill EDI and the Geth, then Refuse in protest after the Extended Cut came out, just in case BioWare was keeping track of that poo poo somehow. Since then all my playthroughs have been on PC with a mod that gives the whole ending a giant middle finger, so I've only really had to suffer through the Star Child's bullshit logic once, twice if you stretch it. It's a shame that the Golden Ending to the Illusive Man's Charm/Intimidate chain across the game is just him shooting himself like Saren 2.0. Because the ending where you gently caress up trying to convince him and wind up shooting him yourself is much more poignant for it. Also I bought the art book for the Mass Effect trilogy and one of the hidden highlights in it was that the game was actually going to end on a boss fight where you fought a hulked out Reaper-ized body horror version of the Illusive Man. It was incredible AND stupid!
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Apr 25, 2019 08:31
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Instead of making a sandwich I went to the bathroom, and what happened in there reminded me of this game for some reason. Actually it was much better since it was painless, over much quicker and I could flush everything away where it, and ME3, belongs. "Synthetics will destroy organics so we built synthetics to destroy the organics to prevent it from happening!"
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Apr 25, 2019 08:50
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nine-gear crow posted:It's a shame that the Golden Ending to the Illusive Man's Charm/Intimidate chain across the game is just him shooting himself like Saren 2.0. Because the ending where you gently caress up trying to convince him and wind up shooting him yourself is much more poignant for it. That is the Intimidate path, though. You also have to shoot him and will get the "it's so... perfect" line if you don't hit all the Rep checks, but he won't snap to the same extent. Getting him to shoot himself is only for the Charm path, and is consistent with Renegade Shepard getting better lines. Also, Shepard's lines for the Control ending aren't solely based on your Paragon/Renegade scores, but on a bunch of in-game choices like whether you cured the Genophage. I forget the exact check, but the straight up Darwinist line only comes up if you did something real lovely in the game, and otherwise a Renegade will just emphasize freedom where a Paragon talks about protecting everyone. And I think the game does make the argument for Shepard's Control ending being different from TIM's, because rather than the brute force he employed, Shepard gets to erase Starchild's personality matrix and upload their own personality in its place. That doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea, because even if you assume that Starchild was completely straight with you, which is a pretty loving huge ask in the first place, there are a lot of things to say about how eternal life and virtual omnipotence would affect a person, and you're given no reason to believe Shepard wouldn't become another bad dad somewhere along the course of infinity. Even if you could make a case for the other endings, Destroy (or Reject) is the only one that makes sense in the moment, because the others have massively far-reaching implications that you're given no chance to expand upon outside of an untrustworthy actor telling you they're cool and groovy. Pulling a "better" ending out of left field just doesn't work when you're making a decision on a galactic scale with zero outside input, not unlike the decision-making that led to these endings being written in the first place. E: Though the real rankle is that for a series where the main character is defined by the ability to tell authority figures to go gently caress themselves at any juncture, regardless of whether she actually manages to convince them that she's in the right, the ending is just her coming up against an author avatar and telling her that this is how the setting works, and accepting that, yeah, this checks out. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 09:39
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Poil posted:Instead of making a sandwich I went to the bathroom, and what happened in there reminded me of this game for some reason. Actually it was much better since it was painless, over much quicker and I could flush everything away where it, and ME3, belongs. The Star Child also said it destroyed all non-Reaper synthetics too. It doesn't help it's argument any, but at least it's being fair in it's application of its (insane) principles. Also I love how the game gets right up to the doorstep of realizing you're arguing with an insane computer program that's been operating on faulting programming for billions of years because the Leviathans misplaced a 0 somewhere or forgot an IF/ELSE variable so it accidentally calculated a 2 and went bonkers killing everything and just justified it after the fact because it's a glorified calculator and the calculator is never wrong. But then it never makes the leap to calling it out because the ending falls apart if you do so and Mac and Casey were too stupid and stubborn to let anything pierce that bubble.
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Apr 25, 2019 10:21
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They could have salvaged the series. They could have come out with a big apology for the ME3 endings mess. Then announce that they picked destroy as the canon ending because they've written themselves in such a corner with the Reapers being night omnipotent that there's no other way to go forward. Remember that FTL travel is possible without Mass Relays, it's just a lot slower. But because "normal" FTL travel is so much slower, the galaxy itself has not really been explored in any depth. It's mostly just the nearest dozen star systems around a Mass Relay. So now you can have a game exploring the local neighborhood around Earth, complete with the possibility of finding new, advanced alien life that just wasn't close enough to a Mass Relay. And such a smaller scope also wouldn't hurt after the galaxy ending stakes of ME3.
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Apr 25, 2019 10:58
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nine-gear crow posted:It's a shame that the Golden Ending to the Illusive Man's Charm/Intimidate chain across the game is just him shooting himself like Saren 2.0. Because the ending where you gently caress up trying to convince him and wind up shooting him yourself is much more poignant for it. Hale's delivery of this line is honestly pretty incredible. I figure most here have heard it but she sounds so fuckin done with all of TIM's bullshit, and there's genuine spite in there. Which mirrors my own attitude toward TIM by the end of ME3 anyway 
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Apr 25, 2019 11:29
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Woo! I caught up just in time for the ending! Personally, I've played ME3 once, the week it came out. I binged it over two days in almost one sitting while I had a cold and was home from school. And I never touched it again before watching this LP. I didn't go back after the DLCs came out or the EC was released. I was just so goddamn disgusted with the game I had been anticipating for so long after ME2. Maybe the cough meds or the fact I was exhausted when I got to the ending at 3 in the morning didn't help, but I was so angry. I really loved Legion, and got the goodest Geth/Quarian ending, and the whole Geth symbiosis fixing the Quarian's immune system thing really got to me in a good way. And now I had to basically kill them? That was a real dick slap to the face of "gently caress your decisions, they meant nothing!" from the game. I don't quite remember which ending I got, I suspect it was the synthesis ending so I could at least salvage something from the game, but I do remember shooting the little shithead of an AI at least twice. So thank you, Subponticate, for taking me back and showing me the slightly less poo poo ending that I couldn't bring myself to seek out myself. Really looking forward to seeing the Citadel DLC.
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Apr 25, 2019 12:07
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Durandal1707 posted:Hale's delivery of this line is honestly pretty incredible. I figure most here have heard it but she sounds so fuckin done with all of TIM's bullshit, and there's genuine spite in there. Which mirrors my own attitude toward TIM by the end of ME3 anyway TIM is an amazingly dumb motherfucker who thinks he's the smartest man ever to live just because he's rich. He's a pretty realistic character, really.
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Apr 25, 2019 13:12
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nine-gear crow posted:The Star Child also said it destroyed all non-Reaper synthetics too. It doesn't help it's argument any, but at least it's being fair in it's application of its (insane) principles. Also I love how the game gets right up to the doorstep of realizing you're arguing with an insane computer program that's been operating on faulting programming for billions of years because the Leviathans misplaced a 0 somewhere or forgot an IF/ELSE variable so it accidentally calculated a 2 and went bonkers killing everything and just justified it after the fact because it's a glorified calculator and the calculator is never wrong. But then it never makes the leap to calling it out because the ending falls apart if you do so and Mac and Casey were too stupid and stubborn to let anything pierce that bubble. "Synthesis is the perfect solution." "Well why haven't you done this before?" "We've never seen cyborgs before." "... You are literally robots made of people and you've never seen cyborgs before?" "Shut up and sacrifice yourself Jesus."
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Apr 25, 2019 14:31
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The best ending would have been Shep storming past the dumb hologram child and filling the whatsit full of bullets. Cue explosion and Shep quipping one final time with a wry smile, hard cut to the ending funeral cutscene and VA. At least thats how it ends in my mind.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:11
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One more thing: Shepard was brain dead, essentially ‘destroyed’ in every sense of the word and they were brought back exactly as they were. I see no reason Edi and the Geth can’t be brought back the same way Might take a bit more than two years, but that’s how I justify the Red ending because I really don’t like the Blue or Green ending, and the Red ending comes closest to my preferred end state (Shepard alive as himself and not an ascendant machine god, Reapers destroyed)
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Apr 25, 2019 15:31
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Shepard's indelible essence turns leaves and hats into PCBs. Now they understand each other so they won't fight anymore. It's the dumbest loving thing ever. The entire idea of the catalyst is such a lazy plot device - something never once alluded to in the past two games that can flick a switch and make all the bad monsters go away. Kill this game with fire.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:55
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I went with Destroy the first time around because, putting aside the obvious trustworthiness issues with the Star child, I figured that my Shepard would argue that no one person should have the kind of power that Control would give... And that Synthesis would be way too big of a change to force on literally everyone without any consultation. At the very least, in case they just had to double down on the finale, they should have had Anderson get teleported up with you and offer his own dying insights and interjections during the conversation with Star Child.
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Apr 25, 2019 16:30
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Imagine a world where ME3 gives you *one* ending choice, and that choice is to Destroy The Reapers and then you get different endings *depending on the choices you made throughout the trilogy* so if you just rush through the game without building up your forces that much, the Reapers are destroyed but the galaxy is shattered and if you do a decent amount, the Reapers are destroyed and the galaxy is greatly damaged and Shepard/crew die and if you do a large amount, the Reapers are destroyed and the galaxy is damaged and Shepard dies but the crew lives and if you max out as much as possible, the Reapers are destroyed, the galaxy is somewhat damaged and Shepard gets to go "Joker get us out of here!" and you zoom away from the Crucible with the Normandy and co. just barely outrunning the bad thing what kills you and then after THAT, you get either a cool series of slides showing what happened with your big choices OR if Shepard survives it segues straight into Citadel with your squadmates going "gosh isn't it amazing that [thing that Shepard did] had [an effect]" if they did even a mediocre version of this, ME3 sits on a bunch of Best Game Ever lists, the Mass Effect franchise probably has two or three additional spinoff games, and even if ME4 (Andromeda or no!) is bad BioWare still has an insane amount of goodwill to burn like you can probably trace a lot of bad decisions BioWare has made post-ME3 to being gunshy over the ending, and it really did not have to be that way.
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Apr 25, 2019 17:38
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I'm delighted that if nothing else the lovely ending is getting people who haven't posted much or all in the threads to join in the conversation This game came out 7 years ago (goddamn) and it still generates the same hate it did when it was fresh, albeit at a much lower intensity. I like to think that if there is ever a college course on videogame writing that this is in the textbook and goes, "Yeah, don't do this." and then lays out all the reasons why. If Hudson and Walters were tired of doing ME and wanted to work on something else, I get that. Arthur Conan Doyle killed Sherlock Holmes off because he wanted to write other stuff but it turned out the same way - people lost their poo poo and he ended up bringing him back and from all accounts wasn't happy about it but hey, gotta eat. If you're an artist creating for art's sake then it doesn't matter much if people like your stuff or not. It's nice of course, but not necessary. However when your job is creating a commercial product for people to buy that happens to include some artistic elements then your job is totally different. Bioware fans being nuts doesn't help either. They could have done what they knew people wanted. There are easy ways to still end Shepard's story if she survives (too broken, wants to have lil' blue children, etc) but give people what they've been expecting and what you yourself as the creators of this story have been showing by example all along. But you get "no, we're gonna kill Shepard off" and then not really giving much thought as to how you're gonna make that work in a way that won't make people rightfully poo poo all over you. Any studio that claims to make story-based games needs to hire an editor. An actual book editor who can point out that no, you can't put that in there because back in the first game you said this and haven't done anything to explain away why that is no longer applicable, or the poo poo you wrote just plain doesn't make sense. Sometimes you gotta just have one person make a decision and that's ok, but that should be a bottom-up process, not top-down.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:41
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SubponticatePoster posted:Any studio that claims to make story-based games needs to hire an editor. An actual book editor who can point out that no, you can't put that in there because back in the first game you said this and haven't done anything to explain away why that is no longer applicable, or the poo poo you wrote just plain doesn't make sense. Sometimes you gotta just have one person make a decision and that's ok, but that should be a bottom-up process, not top-down. BioWare's biggest weakness as a company that creates story-based games is that they seem to lack a powerful and ruthless editor -- the ending is the biggest culprit, but there are far too many lines in their recent games that seem to want to be the new "SWOOPING is BAD  " and fall way short.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:47
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they could totally have killed off shepard in a way not dissimilar to how they did it, if they hadn't insisted on smearing everyone's face in how smart and talented and visionary they were while demonstrating that they were, in fact, none of those things
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Apr 25, 2019 18:48
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I mean killing Shepard off didnt bug me. Barely pulling things off and then looking up for the last time and seeing "we did it. Now the Except we stopped to listen to a loving computer for 30 minutes and completely blew the pacing while it smug expositioned at us and told us to pick our favorite of 3 endings.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:56
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They killed Shepard off on Starkid's terms, not Shep's. With no option to right hook this poo poo. That alone would have made it a disappointment even if the options and reasoning weren't loving stupid.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:03
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Pattonesque posted:BioWare's biggest weakness as a company that creates story-based games is that they seem to lack a powerful and ruthless editor -- the ending is the biggest culprit, but there are far too many lines in their recent games that seem to want to be the new "SWOOPING is BAD e: Night10194 posted:They killed Shepard off on Starkid's terms, not Shep's. With no option to right hook this poo poo. That alone would have made it a disappointment even if the options and reasoning weren't loving stupid.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:07
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Night10194 posted:They killed Shepard off on Starkid's terms, not Shep's. With no option to right hook this poo poo. That alone would have made it a disappointment even if the options and reasoning weren't loving stupid. Pretty much. Cut everything between Shepard passing out next to Anderson and the post choice cut scene out would have made a perfectly solid ending. The funniest thing about the whole debacle is that when they put the extended cut out to
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Apr 25, 2019 19:08
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Night10194 posted:They killed Shepard off on Starkid's terms, not Shep's. With no option to right hook this poo poo. That alone would have made it a disappointment even if the options and reasoning weren't loving stupid. and very little indication about what the sacrifice actually meant all they showed in the original ending was the mass relays exploding and the Normandy crash-landing ... somewhere. which meant people of course were gonna speculate about what happens afterward. the entire fleet is now stuck near a ruined Earth. What happens to the turians and quarians when they run out of food? A shitload of Krogan who may no longer have the genophage are now on a single planet -- what happens to them? Wrex is going to lead the krogan into a glorious future, except he can never get back to Tuchanka. the last time a mass relay exploded it took out an entire system, so does that mean everyone's dead now? What happens to Garrus and Tali on the planet the Normandy landed on? Do they starve? Does Tali ever get to build that house on Rannoch? So at the end of your epic space trilogy you want people to feel all kinds of emotions, but the one they chose (probably accidentally given the level of thought they put into it, although "lots of speculation for everyone" makes me wonder) was "confusion" SubponticatePoster posted:Me personally I don't mind the silly lines if they're not trying super hard to be monkeycheese all the time. In ME2 when Shep renegades that guy out the window in Thane's mission "How 'bout goodbye" is kind of terrible, but it's also not because it's just hammy enough to work. There are some lines in Citadel that also would be awful in any other context but because they've got the history to go with them and are delivered well they end up being genuinely funny. Yeah I'm fine with hammy lines -- some of my favorite BioWare ones are hammy! -- but around Andromeda they went from "these lines should be delivered at appropriate times" to "these lines should be delivered all the time"
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Apr 25, 2019 19:12
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The problem was A) Not respecting the journey they took the player through, by making their achievements in three games into glorified footnotes and B) Destroying the universe they created presumably because they got jealous that someone else might play with their toys. Killing Shepard would have been acceptable if they respected the effort the player put into the games and made it meaningful. Instead they revealed that the only thing they respected was their time, not the player's time. Only their effort mattered, and if you didn't like it, you weren't respecting them for their art. Seriously, gently caress the creative leads at  , I hope Anthem kills them off for good. Whatever creative spark made Mass Effect and the games before that is long gone. The artists and below-the-line developers working there deserve better.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:14
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Old joke: "I'm making Shepard's plaque for the board. What's their first name again?" "Uhh..." "Garrus? Tali? Liara? Joker? ...does anyone know?" "..."
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Apr 25, 2019 19:39
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