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teagone posted:<snip> Your posts before seeing it were about as skeptical as I've felt since spoiling it for myself, so this is encouraging, thanks. I can live with some gripes, none of these movies have been perfect but most have been entertaining in one way or another. I think I'm in the acceptance phase. As Nero Danced fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 19:27
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the time travel / alternate universe stuff sounds like a real loving mess unless you're deliberately telling yourself not to think about it
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Apr 25, 2019 19:28
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I really thought that Professor Hulk was a thing.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:29
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teagone posted:Do remember though, those aren't the past versions of Loki or Gamora from the main MCU timeline (MCU-A). They are from an alternate universe (MCU-B); a "branch" split off from the main timeline. i mean technically they're probably 2 separate dimensions, since the whole "you can't change the past" thing means that they're all going to points from the past in the normal dimension and basically creating another split-off point
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Apr 25, 2019 19:29
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Grouchio posted:I really thought that Professor Hulk was a thing. oh yeah, that is. everything else in that post was BS though, it was separated from the things that were total bs so I excluded it for whatever reason
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Apr 25, 2019 19:30
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Brother Entropy posted:the time travel / alternate universe stuff sounds like a real loving mess unless you're deliberately telling yourself not to think about it If you made it this far it really shouldn't be too hard to keep not thinking about it.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:36
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Brother Entropy posted:the time travel / alternate universe stuff sounds like a real loving mess unless you're deliberately telling yourself not to think about it This is good advice for fantasy fiction in general.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:43
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Darko posted:The lack of logic in this movie is starting to make me legitimately angry. Darko, you’re cool, but “lmao just step away from the screen, how a movie gonna make you mad?” I totally get you in the frustration when you know the potential how something can be great but instead everyone worked to make it mediocre. This is the MCU.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:45
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They should have established it better at the start that this time travel is not time travel at all but rather creating an alternate reality/timeline/multiverse stuff. All the jokes about time travel movies just got that idea of traditional TT locked into people's heads. Like the moment each character arrives at a new point in 'time' they are essentially in a new universe from that point.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:47
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Necrothatcher posted:This is good advice for fantasy fiction in general. Why would this be the case for “fantasy” fiction and not other fiction
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Apr 25, 2019 19:49
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DeimosRising posted:Why would this be the case for “fantasy” fiction and not other fiction Fantasy fiction tends to involve supernatural/magical elements that actively resist logical analysis.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:51
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Necrothatcher posted:This is good advice for fantasy fiction in general. if you don't like fantasy fiction maybe
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Apr 25, 2019 19:52
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Actually the thing that gets me is that despite all the foreshadowing, Captain Marvel has all of maybe three minutes of relevance in this film, half of which is CGI and not actually Brie Larson. She is 100% unnecessary to the plot and the action bits given to her could easily have been for anyone else. The 'selling action figure toys to girls' scene actually really annoys me the more I think about it because literally none of those female characters are given anything real to do in the plot and the one female character who is given something to do doesn't appear because she's dead. Disney trying to make bank on female empowerment without actually giving any women top billing is annoying. Thoughts still flowing together, but where I think Infinity War was an ensemble film that wanted to be an ensemble film and worked, Endgame is an ensemble film that really wants to be about the Stark-Cap-Thor dynamic.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:52
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Necrothatcher posted:Fantasy fiction tends to involve supernatural/magical elements that actively resist logical analysis. I consider this at best dubious, more honestly: bullshit
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Apr 25, 2019 19:53
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As Nero Danced posted:Your posts before seeing it were about as skeptical as I've felt since spoiling it for myself, so this is encouraging, thanks. I can live with some gripes, none of these movies have been perfect but most have been entertaining in one way or another. The film is filled to the brim with crowd pleasing moments. It's entertaining for sure, but it's not like, gods gift to cinema or the best superhero movie ever.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:57
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DC Murderverse posted:i mean technically they're probably 2 separate dimensions, since the whole "you can't change the past" thing means that they're all going to points from the past in the normal dimension and basically creating another split-off point Kind of. The Marvel time travel is firmly in "don't think too much about it" territory. Yes, there's functionally 2 dimensions in the movie, and that's how they avoid time travel paradoxes, but the movie doesn't follow the rules it lays out for its own time travel. They went back to multiple eras, so they would have been creating multiple new dimensions branching off from other branched dimensions. It would be a clusterfuck that could not be fixed by returning stones. Even if you're willing to give them the benefit of doubt and go with 2 separate dimensions, the whole thing falls apart because an aged Captain America shows up at the end. He should not exist in the Snapped timeline/dimensions, because the timeline which Cap settled in would have reached the point where the time-heist happened and then their Thanos would have left.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:58
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DC Murderverse posted:i mean technically they're probably 2 separate dimensions, since the whole "you can't change the past" thing means that they're all going to points from the past in the normal dimension and basically creating another split-off point Yeah, there's at least one alternate universe(and potentially at least 14 million plus??) we see that plays out very differently - In the universe B branch of time for instance, Thanos just disappears in 2014 and the snap simply never takes place.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:58
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Necrothatcher posted:Fantasy fiction tends to involve supernatural/magical elements that actively resist logical analysis. No they don’t. Fantasy fiction just depicts fantasies, and fantasies are very easy to analyze. For example, Endgame concludes with the fantasy that Steve Rogers can return and be with Peggy again. The truth is of course that it’s not Peggy. It’s a clone. So this means is that Steve Rogers views Peggy as an object, interchangeable with thousands of others, and not a person. Easy!
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Apr 25, 2019 20:00
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teagone posted:The film is filled to the brim with crowd pleasing moments. It's entertaining for sure, but it's not like, gods gift to cinema or the best superhero movie ever. I'm thinking of it like this - once you get past the 'it's a superhero film, you need to not think too hard about these plot points' grips and suspend disbelief, then there's maybe two or three scenes that should have been left on the cutting room floor. It's not the best film in the world but at no point does it drag or outstay its welcome, which is pretty incredible for a three hour film.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:01
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Donnerberg posted:Even if you're willing to give them the benefit of doubt and go with 2 separate dimensions, the whole thing falls apart because an aged Captain America shows up at the end. He should not exist in the Snapped timeline/dimensions, because the timeline which Cap settled in would have reached the point where the time-heist happened and then their Thanos would have left. It's possible that he jumped back to the original timeline after Peggy died.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:02
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Alchenar posted:It's not the best film in the world but at no point does it drag or outstay its welcome, which is pretty incredible for a three hour film. Yeah, it's actually a pretty brisk 3 hour watch. But I'm not sure if that applies to a moviegoer who is going in a bit cold. I've watched all the MCU films a handful of times and have an investment in the characters and the overarching narrative, which made Endgame all the more entertaining, relegating its 3 hour runtime to pretty much nothing. It could be a slog for someone with only like, a passing interest in the movies or has seen just a few of them.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:For example, Endgame concludes with the fantasy that Steve Rogers can return and be with Peggy again. The truth is of course that it’s not Peggy. It’s a clone. So this means is that Steve Rogers views Peggy as an object, interchangeable with thousands of others, and not a person. Cinemasins has a lot to answer for.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:09
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LesterGroans posted:It's possible that he jumped back to the original timeline after Peggy died. Nice! I like your theory. That fixes the one thing that really bothered me.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:11
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Donnerberg posted:They went back to multiple eras, so they would have been creating multiple new dimensions branching off from other branched dimensions. It would be a clusterfuck that could not be fixed by returning stones. This is exactly what happened, but the movie doesn't care. The movie sacrifices time travel logic for storytelling, but that's fine. One of the bigger holes is Cap meeting Red Skull again while returning the soul stone on Voromir. I want to know how that went over.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:18
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Donnerberg posted:Nice! I like your theory. That fixes the one thing that really bothered me. Here's one that will gently caress with your head, for about 2 seconds: He had a one of those facemasks from winter Soldier to hide his identity, so he wouldn't be noticed as Steve Rogers. Every time you saw Stan Lee, it was Steve watching over the timeline.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:23
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Necrothatcher posted:Cinemasins has a lot to answer for. Cinema sins is all like “hurf blurf, I cant make sense of it! I don’t understand what’s going on?!”, whereas I’m just giving an accurate summary of what happens in the film.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:23
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*Peggy’s upside-down in the fishbowl* “Aw, don’t worry Steve; we can buy you a new Peggy.”
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Apr 25, 2019 20:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Cinema sins is all like “hurf blurf, I cant make sense of it! I don’t understand what’s going on?!”, whereas I’m just giving an accurate summary of what happens in the film. Could you do a cool subversive anti-capitalist take on it? They're much more fun. Quote some Zizek, just like the old days!
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Apr 25, 2019 20:30
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LesterGroans posted:It's possible that he jumped back to the original timeline after Peggy died. but he didn't jump. He was just sitting there. Which implies that he just lived a normal life in the same universe that everything else happened in, which flies in the face of all of the stuff they laid out. They could have fixed this by just having him come back as an old man through the time machine but they wanted the reveal of Cap just chilling on the bench, which is a funny joke. i know this isn't Primer and I shouldn't be bother by this. SuperMechagodzilla posted:*Peggy’s upside-down in the fishbowl* You're totally removing any possibility of Peggy having any agency in this situation, kind of unfairly. It's totally reasonable that Cap showed up and explained to her exactly what was going on instead of your assumption that he just tricked her into thinking that he was the same Cap from the universe he showed up in. In this case, he's not loving over Peggy (it stands to reason that two people who fell in love would probably have similar feelings about alternate reality versions), but it does make me wonder what happens to the Cap in that universe, but they totally gloss over that by just breaking the rules and making a causal loop after an entire movie of time travel that specifically does *not* cause a loop. It's not a character flaw, it's a plot logic flaw. DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 20:37
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PaybackJack posted:2. Iron Man = Dead Heimdall = "Who fuckin' cares? I fight superpowered cars now, I'm the real MCU!" - Idris Elba
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Apr 25, 2019 20:44
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They should have added a "coming back from time traveling" sound effect offscreen right before we see Old Cap just to make it clear he came back from a different timeline.
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Apr 25, 2019 20:57
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Hometown Slime Queen posted:Seriously, are there any ladies who think those parts are cool? I loving cringed at the GIRL BATTLE in the second one and I cringed even harder at the WE GIRLS GOT YOUR BACK GIRL scene in this one. It just feels patronizing as hell, but at least they're over with quickly because lol. eh I read some mother tell about how she cringed hard but her younger daughter was absolutely ecstatic, and if you consider this is a movie for everyone, it’s utterly worthwhile for that kind of thing.
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Apr 25, 2019 21:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Why not? It's super funny - and it's not like it's difficult to do. This would be great characterization for Strange but I'm sure it's not that and instead something like Strange recognizing that the one shot is the timeline/universe where Tony reverts back to being a self-interested dolt and everyone else is an idiot. It's cool to think that maybe winning for Strange isn't just taking Thanos off the board, but also removing Stark, who despite his growth has been shown to be an untapped potential of world-ending ideas/technology that someone could come along and provoke into creating something that just can't be dealt with. That would be some interesting territory, story wise. DC Murderverse posted:So hypothetically, with the way that time travel works in this movie, does it mean that there's like, an infinite amount of alternate realities? Is it like Spiderverse? There's now potentially a Loki running around somewhere, but hypothetically couldn't anyone with access to the time stone also dimension jump? I feel like there's a lot of potential with the time travel stuff Yes. Remains to seen how they'll deal with it in Phase 4 and beyond. Like Bedshaped said, they're kind of playing around with how movies have conditioned audiences to think about "time travel", because what they're doing in Endgame isn't time travel along one specific timeline as much as jumping to different timelines at specific points where the history aligns with the main timeline's. Bedshaped posted:They should have established it better at the start that this time travel is not time travel at all but rather creating an alternate reality/timeline/multiverse stuff. All the jokes about time travel movies just got that idea of traditional TT locked into people's heads. Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 21:01
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DC Murderverse posted:You're totally removing any possibility of Peggy having any agency in this situation, kind of unfairly. It's totally reasonable that Cap showed up and explained to her exactly what was going on instead of your assumption that he just tricked her into thinking that he was the same Cap from the universe he showed up in. In this case, he's not loving over Peggy (it stands to reason that two people who fell in love would probably have similar feelings about alternate reality versions), but it does make me wonder what happens to the Cap in that universe, but they totally gloss over that by just breaking the rules and making a causal loop after an entire movie of time travel that specifically does *not* cause a loop. It's not a character flaw, it's a plot logic flaw. This just arrives at the same point of characterisation though, just that both view the other as objects that are entirely interchangeable - it’s also assumes that Peggy B doesn’t ask how he got there, where either Cap A lies about where Cap B is and/or neither of them give a poo poo about him. Plus then there’s all the stuff about his awareness of Hydra operating in that universe in the post-world war II era while he’s just like gently caress it, i’m living the good life and Cap B is stuck living as an ice cube. To be clear this isn’t about plot holes, but how these elements of the story informs the characterisation - It's also established they can make jumps on the fly, his point of return just wouldn't necessarily be universe A's present. Cap A just didn't want to return when he was supposed to after putting everything back in order to get a taste of that good life.
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Apr 25, 2019 21:02
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Bedshaped posted:They should have established it better at the start that this time travel is not time travel at all but rather creating an alternate reality/timeline/multiverse stuff. All the jokes about time travel movies just got that idea of traditional TT locked into people's heads. The scene with Tilda Swinton explained it pretty clear that each jump back branched off into another universe (she even makes a magical diagram), but I'm sure not everyone is going to be able to get that because the movie doesn't really make a big deal about it, storytelling wise.
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Apr 25, 2019 21:11
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Characterisation stuff aside, two questions: - Since Cap's story is so prominent here, is Sharon Carter mentioned at all? - Does Wanda continue her three movie streak of getting a bunch of Africans killed for no good reason?
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Apr 25, 2019 21:12
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Mat Cauthon posted:Characterisation stuff aside, two questions: -No -Not really.
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Apr 25, 2019 21:17
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brawleh posted:This just arrives at the same point of characterisation though, just that both view the other as objects that are entirely interchangeable - it’s also assumes that Peggy B doesn’t ask how he got there, where either Cap A lies about where Cap B is and/or neither of them give a poo poo about him. yeah you're pretty much right about this. the question so what happens to Frozen-Cap in the universe our Cap jumps to may get a lot of attention once people start talking about this movie. edit: especially because we literally have an example of someone killing their past self without it affecting them temporally, so none of the usual rules apply.
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Apr 25, 2019 21:20
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I liked the "Martha" moment: Cap telling Cap that Bucky is alive to make him release the chokehold. There was even the guy who played KGBeast. It's the kind of movie that is more or less entertaining when you're watching it but it falls apart immediately when you start thinking about it. Time travel is always problematic in movies and this is no exception. There were some cool scenes but I hope I won't have to watch the whole movie again in foreseeable future.
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Apr 25, 2019 21:28
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Yeah, I wonder if Cap-A disclosed to Peggy-B that he had come from a different universal timeline, or if he just kept that to himself. Because when Cap-B gets defrosted in that timeline, if Cap-A never told her that, Peggy-B's gotta be like wtf?
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Apr 25, 2019 21:28
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