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It's wild how much the culture around Paradox has changed, honestly. Ok, so the community hasn't changed THAT much, but at least the devs aren't defending racism like in the bad old days.
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Apr 26, 2019 16:50
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I really respected Wiz throwing their red hats in the trash and making their hatred of the alt-right explicit and public despite the number of their customers who's feathers would be ruffled by that. A lesser company would see that nazi cosplayers and folks who use their map games to live out their ethno-nationalist fantasies are a good chunk of their customers and decide to be "neutral" or "not get politicial". On the other hand is sad the state of the "gaming community" that taking a stance against racists and nazi's is a bold move.
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Apr 26, 2019 16:56
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Baronjutter posted:I really respected Wiz throwing their red hats in the trash and making their hatred of the alt-right explicit and public despite the number of their customers who's feathers would be ruffled by that. Fascism is still by far the best ideology, in game mechanics terms, in HOI4. Paradox isn't as "bold" in their stance (publicly) as one might think. They're a company interested in making money after all, and wehraboo fash/fash-adjacent types make up a substantial enough part of the community of one of their major game franchises that they could do a lot more about it, and don't. I get that it's hard to do because you have to make money at the end of the day, but... c'mon. They've only just a month or so ago finally made a big push to get "REMOVE KEBAB" bullshit removed from subreddits that have Paradox staff on the mod team, and that was only in response to a mass shooting where someone had the meme engraved on his rifles (and not because, y'know, it was racist as gently caress) Drone fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 17:25
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Drone posted:Fascism is still by far the best ideology, in game mechanics terms, in HOI4. True, but the bar for game companies on the social/political front is pretty fuckin' low right now 
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Apr 26, 2019 17:27
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Baronjutter posted:I just love that the Vicky 2 economy was mostly designed by an actual right wing capitalism-lover setting out to make a system that isn't socialist propaganda like the first game, and this is the result we got. Funnily enough, the other vicky1 designer was socialdemocrat to the core, and the game was designed to make it the best. I personally dont believe in any politics or religion or such..besides trolling other people. Actually.. not entirely true.. FOR THE ALLIANCE! pdxjohan fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 17:29
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pdxjohan posted:I personally dont believe in any politics or religion or such.. There's so much unpacked ideology in here you'd need two dumpsters to even begin to eat from it.
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Apr 26, 2019 17:36
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Drone posted:Fascism is still by far the best ideology, in game mechanics terms, in HOI4. Remove kebab have been banned on our platforms for years. We are not owners over the subreddits, that's community driven. "Paradox Staff on the mod team" is super misdirecting, Meneth very recently got hired and is the only one on the mod team that works with Paradox. And he's always been against Remove Kebab meme from what I remember when I talked to him (don't take my word for it though, this is from distant memory) Groogy fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 17:42
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pdxjohan posted:I personally dont believe in any politics or religion or such..besides trolling other people. Yeah I've noticed.
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Apr 26, 2019 17:47
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That reminds me of the countryball stuff in general. I dunno if it's me or the discourse or the community that's changed, but I remember laughing at it and now it mostly seems in bad taste and used by people with questionable beliefs. Like, the original "Poland cannot into space" comic is still kinda funny but seeing that stuff these days is a 90% indicator that the poster has strong opinions about what is or isn't "Western Civilisation"
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Apr 26, 2019 17:49
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Drone posted:Fascism is still by far the best ideology, in game mechanics terms, in HOI4. Yeah this is real bizarre to read, an in game mechanic to represent something strange that happened in history is somehow not The Worst and that means that Paradox is actually supporting the ideology. The way that discourse on the internet has gone from "lol people calling everyone they dislike Nazis are morons, godwins law" to this sort of, if it's not the worst ideology in the game that means you actually love it, is really unfortunate. And of course why are they doing the secret nazi thing? because they have to make money. Wehraboo money, lol. A public Swedish company. Come onnnn Remove kebab was banned from Paradoxplaza over a year ago so a lot of this hot take seems to be based on a bunch of wrong info 
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Apr 26, 2019 17:53
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Eh ignore my dumb ranting and seeing fascists in the woodwork, it's been a really lovely day to end a really lovely week.
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Apr 26, 2019 18:45
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*Gets stuck in taffic jam on way home from work* "Thanks,
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Apr 26, 2019 18:55
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Maybe the way we present the development of history in popular works actually has an effect on our perception of that history and questions over whether an empty Africa and Oceania are problematic are good. Like, 'the mechanic simply reflects the bigoted racist attitude of the period they're presenting,' isn't actually a great defence when a huge amount of people get their understanding of history from map games.
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Apr 26, 2019 19:24
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Yeah, there's a lot to "unpack" from Paradox games and the narratives they present and the genocides they pick and choose to represent, abstract, or erase from history. I don't think there's every going to be a non-problematic way of making a fun video game where you play as a 1500's colonizer, or fuckin' nazi germany. Like you don't need to #CANCEL paradox games because their mechanics aren't sufficiently de-colonized but I think there's a lot of interesting conversations to be had over how these games work. What's represented and what isn't, and the biases of both the creators and consumers of these products.
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Apr 26, 2019 19:33
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Maybe the way we present the development of history in popular works actually has an effect on our perception of that history and questions over whether an empty Africa and Oceania are problematic are good. Like, 'the mechanic simply reflects the bigoted racist attitude of the period they're presenting,' isn't actually a great defence when a huge amount of people get their understanding of history from map games. There is no bigoted racist attitude, the axis powers totally sucked for the first two years of HOI4's release until players were like "So this is great and all but Germany doesn't even pose a threat and neither do the axis" and now they're able to do something other than immediately lose, which apparently means that the bigoted racist attitude is supreme . And that's what I mean, it's a ridiculous statement / way of presenting it.Germany did manage to do ridiculous / horrific things during ww2, it's a game set in that time period, being like "Nah we gotta make them total dogshit in game because otherwise the representation will drive people to nazism" is frankly absurd.
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Apr 26, 2019 19:36
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Ham Sandwiches posted:There is no bigoted racist attitude, the axis powers totally sucked for the first two years of HOI4's release until players were like "So this is great and all but Germany doesn't even pose a threat and neither do the axis" and now they're able to do something other than immediately lose, which apparently means that the bigoted racist attitude is supreme Oh yeah, the “actually fascism being the best and Africa being empty are just sound game mechanics and only an s-jew would think otherwise” people still exist in Games
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Apr 26, 2019 19:39
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Oh yeah, the “actually fascism being the best and Africa being empty are just sound game mechanics and only an s-jew would think otherwise” people still exist in Games Yeah this kind of disingenuous stuff when talking about a wargame set in ww2 is mega tedious, for realz. In a game set where a country set out to conquer a bunch of stuff, making them mechanically unable to do anything at all because it suits the sensibilities of people today is unfortunate. Especially since it was that way for years after release and people found that it gets boring playing a scenario where the eminent threat of the time is not a threat in the game rules because nazis bad. It's just like the Ottomans, they're a viable and significant power in EU4, and that makes the game interesting - no that doesn't mean I'm in any way supporting their policies or ideology. That's the simple point I'm making. AnEdgelord posted:I just want the Comintern to get some love Agreed and make Trotskyism more viable tbh Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 19:42
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I just want the Comintern to get some love
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Apr 26, 2019 19:43
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AnEdgelord posted:I just want the Comintern to get some love i'd put a small quantity of cash down on USSR/Italy/Tank designer patch coming next
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Apr 26, 2019 19:45
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Hoi4 is also the game where Stalin did nothing wrong so you will need to explain that if you claim it has a fascist slant
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Apr 26, 2019 19:46
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Red-Brown Alliance 
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Apr 26, 2019 19:50
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VostokProgram posted:Hoi4 is also the game where Stalin did nothing wrong so you will need to explain that if you claim it has a fascist slant There's an entire focus and event chain devoted to the purging of the party and armed forces that give major maluses to the country. The Nazis have none of their crimes mentioned or have them affect their warmaking potential.
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Apr 26, 2019 19:54
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Fuligin posted:i'd put a small quantity of cash down on USSR/Italy/Tank designer patch coming next I just really hope, and expect ~~assuming there are no major game mechanic overhauls on the level of Fuel and the resulting economic and AI changes/updates~~, the next DLCs will not take 11+ months. Adding a tank designer using existing tools/assets should hopefully be far easier than creating the ship designer from scratch. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:There's an entire focus and event chain devoted to the purging of the party and armed forces that give major maluses to the country. The Nazis have none of their crimes mentioned or have them affect their warmaking potential.
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Apr 26, 2019 19:55
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dont loving put in a tank designer you fools
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Apr 26, 2019 19:57
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VostokProgram posted:Hoi4 is also the game where Stalin did nothing wrong so you will need to explain that if you claim it has a fascist slant It's a game that just generally white-washes the conflict in order for it to feel "clean" to play any side. But what ever way paradox handled it would have downsides. -You depict the conflict accurately, warts and all. As a nazi player you need to prop up your economy through death camps and slavery and meet genocide quotas or suffer purity penalties within your party. Yeah, that wouldn't be deeply hosed up at all. -You sanitize the game, whitewashing history and reducing WWII to a bunch of units moving around a map and give fascists cool powers and abilities because an accurate simulation of how dysfunctional and unsustainable those systems were isn't "fun and balanced" as a game. -You make the "evil" countries non-playable NPC's. The white-washing angle ends up being the safest and focuses on the business of selling games, so that's what they go with.
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Apr 26, 2019 19:58
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What's this "fascism is the best mechanically" narrative? I'm at a loss for what, if anything, fascism gets that communism doesn't. I play mostly as USSR and just like a fascism I can send volunteers regardless of world tension, can justify on whoever I please, etc etc.
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Apr 26, 2019 20:02
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^e; For minor countries going down the generic fascist tree is the only reliable way to get a workable amount of manpower.WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Maybe the way we present the development of history in popular works actually has an effect on our perception of that history and questions over whether an empty Africa and Oceania are problematic are good. Like, 'the mechanic simply reflects the bigoted racist attitude of the period they're presenting,' isn't actually a great defence when a huge amount of people get their understanding of history from map games. This touches on several things. and my question to it would be "why do people take their history from map games in the first place". Basically a question as to whether Paradox has any responsibility towards abuse of their product (and I would argue that treating a videogame as an educational tool qualifies as abuse in this context). Ultimately I'd say they kind of do have to adress it but that you also cannot really hold them responsible for people going "wow, fascism gives so much manpower, this shows it's good to be a racist!".
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Apr 26, 2019 20:03
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:
The Nazis are objectively correct in this game, and more powerful than anyone else, but that’s fine because it doesn’t make Stalinism look bad enough. (This argument would have a lot more weight if the paradox playerbase was chock full of stalinists but here irl it’s 100 goofy nazis for one Stalin fan)
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Apr 26, 2019 20:05
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:goofy nazis sieg heil, a hyuk
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Apr 26, 2019 20:09
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YF-23 posted:^e; For minor countries going down the generic fascist tree is the only reliable way to get a workable amount of manpower. It's popular media. It's always going to happen. Art is propaganda. It reflects and reifies a political position whether it wants to or not. Fascism having so much manpower is actually something I'm glad they have. It pushes back against post-war Nazi lies about their technological mastery and Asian Soviet hordes over-running them with sheer numbers. A game like Company of Heroes 2 takes the opposite position and it's straight Nazi propaganda that's honestly hard to sit through. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 20:11
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:There's an entire focus and event chain devoted to the purging of the party and armed forces that give major maluses to the country. The Nazis have none of their crimes mentioned or have them affect their warmaking potential. I think he means mechanically Stalin did nothing wrong. As in if you don't purge you will get a Trostkyist uprising, rather than the purges being manifestations of Stalin's paranoia.
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Apr 26, 2019 20:18
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Fuligin posted:i'd put a small quantity of cash down on USSR patch coming next you'd lose
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Apr 26, 2019 20:20
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Stairmaster posted:dont loving put in a tank designer you fools
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Apr 26, 2019 20:26
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Stairmaster posted:Put in a gun designer you fools
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Apr 26, 2019 20:31
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Stairmaster posted:loving put in a truck designer you cowards
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Apr 26, 2019 20:39
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Pharnakes posted:I think he means mechanically Stalin did nothing wrong. As in if you don't purge you will get a Trostkyist uprising, rather than the purges being manifestations of Stalin's paranoia. Yes, this. Baronjutter posted:It's a game that just generally white-washes the conflict in order for it to feel "clean" to play any side. But what ever way paradox handled it would have downsides. I agree with this analysis. And it's not like paradox is the only company that operates in this way. Is the entire games industry secretly Nazi propaganda?
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Apr 26, 2019 20:43
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VostokProgram posted:Is the entire games industry secretly Nazi propaganda? Yes, but extend it to the entire entertainment industry. Baronjutter posted:It's a game that just generally white-washes the conflict in order for it to feel "clean" to play any side. But what ever way paradox handled it would have downsides. The only other way would basically be to make the player feel like a 'clean wehrmacht' officer. You have events firing all the time that cause more and more maluses to your industry and supply throughput as resources are shifted to the deathcamps, and the only way to stop the events from firing is to overthrow the Nazis through a focus or event. Still obviously hosed and fascist, because 'the holocaust was bad for the warmaking capabilities of the third reich' is a disgusting framing. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 20:46
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I think they balance the degree of historical accuracy worked into each game with the need for an actually fun appealing game pretty well for a reasonable adult audience. My schooling covered the Holocaust pretty well when going over the complexities and horrors of World War 2, and now that I think of it really did a good job of teaching the new horrors and resulting dismal world view from World War 1. Racial science would be uncomfortable and not enjoyable for me to have in almost any in-depth mechanical form, the purity or other species slavery factions of Stellaris being an exception because being aliens it's pretty abstracted from the equivalent horrors of our world in practice. That said, there rises an issue if you then rely on or let the game's lack of focus on these issues begin to color your actual attitudes or historical beliefs. Crusader Kings II really got me interested in the different Islamic schools and branches, which I then briefly looked into outside of the game if only in a surface level "that was a neat little thing that happened" way. However the handling of the Kharijites and them sort of setting up a pretty solidly lasting leadership crisis compared to how Hearts of Iron IV's greatest economic powerhouse at start is Nazi Germany, which is both the easiest to play and whose play style mirrors the real world buildup and expansion through acquisition which is fun. The potential or resulting tenancy for a player's image of Nazi Germany is really bad bad not good if it becomes detached from real history and things like putting people in camps to work them to death and eventually deciding that industrializing murder was the best solution humanity had arrived at or the widely denied in places rape and murder during the Japanese expansion into China becomes "just some stuff". I think that the reasonable player to a large extent doesn't have their understanding or moral belief on those subjects changed by the games, but a few parts of the Nazi Germany or Soviet fluff do get a little too close to the point of starting to feel slightly glorified. Turning the Soviet purge into a button option, which gameplay wise works and flows nicely, is pretty messed up compared to how other things are treated and just plain wrong when kept in mind all those people who died. Now, it's a game about the strategic conflict of World War 2 and for the most part not one about the moral or cultural events and choices made even if national focus trees are named and consist of fluff text surrounding the factories/units you get for any given choice. I don't think I've ever made a choice not based on what it does for me mechanically or if it's a different direction of play through to experience, the Anschluss is not a moral choice but about factories because there's no interaction or meaningful component of German nationalism or racial identity outside fluff text I honestly haven't read. These choices or events being treated with respect and carefully in the text is important though, and to some degree they should be acknowledged in the work even if not in a mechanical way since I honestly don't see a reality where I play gas chamber mechanics. Still, there are some issues that could use attention across their games such as the fact I can play Germany and really enjoy it but also feel to different degrees bad about it, slightly ashamed saying that publicly - because it's Nazi Germany and the Nazi part is important. Making and dealing with the elements of those topics mechanically work as gameplay, respectfully and tactfully handled, not glossed over or glorified or reduce your game to a point where it isn't engaging is a lot of stuff to do and I don't envy anyone trying to make a game and has to do so. I think engagement of audience and division of game focus vs. treatment of events is really the tight rope to walk? Like if not morally condoning it, the fact that Nazi Germany aggressively expands territory and consumes weaker nations for snowballing production and military capacity does pretty accurately reflect the real life course of events and strategy of Nazi Germany and fascism as a whole even if the mechanical advantages to doing so given to fascist nations do mean mechanically having a world where fascism has the greatest military capacity/means possible. Fascism did though, with great damage to the world, have advantages in military capability because they had national support for enforced or large volunteered manpower and utilized production capacity from acquisitions to continue expanding. It's a pretty complex group of subjects intersecting with game design and also composed of clear morally black/white topics with tough questions but I'm about to play Imperator: Rome and am confident there will be absolutely nothing about the glory of tyrants, horrors of non-chattel but still people owning people slavery, or romanticized military conquest handled poorly. The current world climate makes that all pretty much a cake walk.
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Apr 26, 2019 21:33
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I want tank/airplane/gun designers and I also want ammunition development to be less abstract. So I can develop apcr rounds instead of putting a bigger gun on the tank.
Dramicus fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 21:47
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Rome performance is so sluggish it's hard to even form an opinion on the game underneath. Guess I'll wait for a patch and try it then.
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Apr 26, 2019 21:54
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