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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Yes, but extend it to the entire entertainment industry. Deathcamps were insanely profitable though. Nazi's had horrible industry, a hosed economy, and deep deep corruption and mismanagement at every level. Their whole very temporary economic boost was mostly based on the government declaring a huge portion of its richest citizens non-humans and taking all their assets and spending it on guns and butter for their troops. Their expansion and conquest was needed to sustain this, they needed to invade other countries to sack for quick injections of loot and slaves. The moment nazi germany ran out of people to rob and kill their whole economy would have crashed and burned. It was an extremely not at all sustainable system, but games never really mechanically depict it that way. They always like to show germany as this efficient advanced industrial economy with super science, imagine how powerful they'd have been if they hadn't wasted resources on the whole genocide thing! But that really wasn't the case, it was a regime entirely propped up through the murder and robbery of huge swaths of europe. The nazi's couldn't manage a factory let alone economy to save their lives, mass theft to fill their coffers and genocide to free up food for the troops was a pillar of their economy. A game where you have the accurate situation the nazi's were in would be really horrifying, you'd be strongly rewarded for your crimes against humanity in the short term. But then accurately show that no matter how well you move your troops around the map, once you've run out of people to rob and kill your economy crashes, show the regime and the ideology as the idiotic dead-end it was.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:08
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Raskolnikov38 posted:you'd lose Stairmaster posted:dont loving put in a tank designer you fools tsk, smdh
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Apr 26, 2019 22:09
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Pharnakes posted:I think he means mechanically Stalin did nothing wrong. As in if you don't purge you will get a Trostkyist uprising, rather than the purges being manifestations of Stalin's paranoia. It wasn't paranoia, it was political infighting between different power bases in the government (Stalin's core vs the provincial peripheries) with the general populace caught in the crossfire http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs522/GettyMassRepressions.pdf
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Apr 26, 2019 22:09
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I would rather the ship designer be removed than a tank designer be added.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:16
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Personally I'm boycotting HoI until they implement a uniform designer
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Apr 26, 2019 22:17
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Crazycryodude posted:Personally I'm boycotting HoI until they implement a uniform designer every swatistica is 20 pp
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Apr 26, 2019 22:17
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I do think it's a mechanically interesting idea to make fascism a more seductive option for a player at the tradeoff for the fact that the player has to acknowledge that they're a bad person, but that only works if the game really rubs it in, and the only game I've seen like that is Frostpunk. Otherwise, all you're saying through your game mechanics is that fascism sure is a great system where more can get done, and all the initiative is on the player to work out that it's bad.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:33
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let me personally design the boots of my troops that is the true Victoria's Secret
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Apr 26, 2019 22:34
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HoI has the same problem Knights of the Old Republic had, it's more fun to go around force choking people and shooting lighting out of your fingers than it is to go around and explicitly not do those things.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:43
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SlothfulCobra posted:I do think it's a mechanically interesting idea to make fascism a more seductive option for a player at the tradeoff for the fact that the player has to acknowledge that they're a bad person, but that only works if the game really rubs it in, and the only game I've seen like that is Frostpunk. I don't even think Frostpunk does it particularly well, the game places the stakes so high (the stakes being the complete extinction of humanity) that basically anything is justifiable in that circumstance. The game walks back those stakes a bit with the other scenarios where you learn that you weren't the only city but it feels more like a hamfisted attempt to walk back just how bad things are in the main scenario (as well as justification for more scenarios).
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Apr 26, 2019 22:50
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Jeoh posted:let me personally design the boots of my troops Game's not complete until the inefficiencies of German helmet manufacturing are properly modeled
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Apr 26, 2019 23:09
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Let me design my soldiers’ webbing. I don’t think paradox is full of nazis, but the current systems in several games do really turn me off. And similarly I don’t think playing Germany in HoI makes anyone a nazi but... I haven’t picked Germany since HoI2 Doomsday. I’m a french sephardic jew via my mom and my via my dad, descended from alsatian “malgré-nous” forced to serve the Nazis. Playing as the Nazis is unthinkable to me and some paradox fans think that makes me some kind of weak-kneed millennial communist who can’t separate games and reality when if anything, separating games and reality is exactly why I don’t want to play Hitler.
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Apr 26, 2019 23:21
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Also just saying you can win the main scenario in Frostpunk without going down one of the paths and it's also pretty easy to do so. It's quite a slap in face when you save everyone without resorting to extremism and you still get the message of "but was it worth it?" Yes it loving was, I saved everyone for basically no cost. Of course it was worth it. It's a great game, but it's trying too hard to be edgy. I understand what you mean when you say "stakes are high" in Frostpunk by narrative but it feels super silly when I did a perfect run on my second try. Groogy fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 23:29
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Let me design my soldiers’ webbing. You can launch a coup now and play as the Kaiser.
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Apr 26, 2019 23:30
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Let me design my soldiers’ webbing. Yeah my first ever run I played Germany because that's who everyone recommended as a tutorial nation, I got like halfway through and then quit because looking at all the Nazis and swastikas made me feel really poo poo, and I haven't touched them since. I don't really understand why anyone would actually want to play Germany but it kinda has to be an option and also I guess it makes it easy to spot all the weirdos. Edit: I partially take that back, now that Germany has alt-hist paths I can see how that would be interesting. I don't know why anyone would want to play the Nazis is a more accurate statement.
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Apr 26, 2019 23:33
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Crazycryodude posted:... and then quit because looking at all the [...] swastikas There's literally zero swastikas in the game
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Apr 26, 2019 23:36
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Dramicus posted:HoI has the same problem Knights of the Old Republic had, it's more fun to go around force choking people and shooting lighting out of your fingers than it is to go around and explicitly not do those things. the communist focus trees mostly fix this except for the soviets because lol why bother with largest contributor to the war, the dutch need alt-history paths!
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Apr 26, 2019 23:37
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Groogy posted:There's literally zero swastikas in the game Oh duh  , this was years ago guess my memory has turned all the Iron Cross find-replaces into the swastika they're obviously supposed to be over time.
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 23:44
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YF-23 posted:This touches on several things. and my question to it would be "why do people take their history from map games in the first place". Basically a question as to whether Paradox has any responsibility towards abuse of their product (and I would argue that treating a videogame as an educational tool qualifies as abuse in this context). Ultimately I'd say they kind of do have to adress it but that you also cannot really hold them responsible for people going "wow, fascism gives so much manpower, this shows it's good to be a racist!". I don't think short of sponsoring a bachelor's in history for everyone that there's much that can be done to stop people from taking their history from map games (and all popular media; see also historically accurate depiction of the middle ages, Game of Thrones); when it's the main place people are actually exposed to this stuff, it's gonna rub off. also in my opinion a key part is that it isn't this active "well you see I'm making this argument based on Hearts of Iron" so much as that this poo poo rubs off subconsciously and comes up again later on when we don't remember where it came from, and informs our other opinions on things even when we don't realize it. So rather than things like Stalin Being Right (though still dumb) that can be disproved easily later on by taking even a cursory interest in the subject and that'll get mocked to high heaven if you actually have a discussion with someone and they realize where your opinion is coming from, the worst is poo poo like Civ's linear tech tree or EU4's Germany-is-as-rich-as-China that is extremely nebulous and hard to disprove without a fairly involved understanding while still being really insidious to how people end up viewing the world. incidentally i assert this based on no formal study whatsoever but I've been thinking about this a lot lately so
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Apr 26, 2019 23:44
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Groogy posted:There's literally zero swastikas in the game There’s literally everything but swastikas though, and anyone who has existed between 1945 and 2019 is going to know how many swastikas are festooned in their fake Reich (all of them). Plus there are focuses that amount to “gas most of my relatives for +10 factories” couched in straight-up nazi language. The anti-Hitler paths are fun but it still kinda hits me the wrong way since there are irl people who think “all that german militarism was completely fine, even good! Stalhelm-wearing feldgrau-clad soldiers conquering everything would have been great!... too bad about the Holocaust, what if we did everything the same except all slave workers and no gassing?”
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Apr 26, 2019 23:47
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Dramicus posted:HoI has the same problem Knights of the Old Republic had, it's more fun to go around force choking people and shooting lighting out of your fingers than it is to go around and explicitly not do those things. I used to feel this way as a kid (kind of,), now I have trouble making "evil" decisions in games because I feel like an rear end in a top hat
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Apr 26, 2019 23:47
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Also keep in mind s lot of our "historicity" has an element of what do the player expect? Like why the hell does Russia have the Soviet meme of manpower in EU4? Because otherwise people wouldn't identify it with being Russia.
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Apr 26, 2019 23:47
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Groogy posted:Also keep in mind s lot of our "historicity" has an element of what do the player expect? Like why the hell does Russia have the Soviet meme of manpower in EU4? Because otherwise people wouldn't identify it with being Russia. I thought Russia had a large population even in that time period?
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Apr 26, 2019 23:51
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Groogy posted:Also keep in mind s lot of our "historicity" has an element of what do the player expect? Like why the hell does Russia have the Soviet meme of manpower in EU4? Because otherwise people wouldn't identify it with being Russia. I mean, these games are exactly the kinds of things where you can change those expectations though. I mean gently caress, how many threads have there been about "don't you know Carthage is white and Egypt is yellow??," an opinion basically entirely informed by some relatively arbitrary choices by like, Total War. I don't think game companies necessarily have a "responsibility" to educate or that they're worthy of condemnation when the games end up reinforcing objectionable understandings, but it would be...better if they treated this stuff with gravity, because (imo) it's like one of the very most important places for how people learn this stuff.
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Apr 26, 2019 23:52
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VostokProgram posted:I thought Russia had a large population even in that time period? In that time period, the most populous countries were Ming China, the Mughals, France, and everyone else, each tier separated by almost an order of magnitude from the next
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Apr 26, 2019 23:55
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VostokProgram posted:I thought Russia had a large population even in that time period? That has nothing to do with how the army is built up or what kind of manpower is available. One of the great success of Sweden was how much of its population it could pull into military service. Russia had similar reforms where especially Peter the Great made the Russian army onto something you would resemble as a Prussian army Also before anyone tries to correct me, yes Russia stayed with serfdom while everyone else moved away from it which caused of course tons of complications here Groogy fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 23:56
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Groogy posted:Also just saying you can win the main scenario in Frostpunk without going down one of the paths and it's also pretty easy to do so. It's quite a slap in face when you save everyone without resorting to extremism and you still get the message of "but was it worth it?" You didn't get the perfect ending.
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Apr 26, 2019 23:56
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Beamed posted:You didn't get the perfect ending. Maybe perfect ending wasn't implemented then, I saved everyone on the map and not a single one died. I didnt even exploit the children
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Apr 27, 2019 00:00
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Posters who are uncomfortable with Germany in Hearts of Iron, what your ideal response from Paradox be (and I don't mean this in a hostile way): cripple Germany? Make it non-playable? Not make a game about WW2 in the first place? I would understand if it was.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:01
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Farecoal posted:Posters who are uncomfortable with Germany in Hearts of Iron, what your ideal response from Paradox be (and I don't mean this in a hostile way): cripple Germany? Make it non-playable? Not make a game about WW2 in the first place? I would understand if it was. bring back the option to assassinate leaders from hoi2
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Apr 27, 2019 00:02
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Farecoal posted:Posters who are uncomfortable with Germany in Hearts of Iron, what your ideal response from Paradox be (and I don't mean this in a hostile way): cripple Germany? Make it non-playable? Not make a game about WW2 in the first place? I would understand if it was. I 110% understand why they don't, but my ideal response would be to constantly highlight the German war crimes and atrocities.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:bring back the option to assassinate leaders from hoi2 Oh great, now Himmler is in power. Everything is much better now.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:13
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Dramicus posted:Oh great, now Himmler is in power. Everything is much better now. lol that reminds me of when DH would bug out and have both the success and failure events for the july 20th coup fire and everyone in germany ends up dead
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Apr 27, 2019 00:15
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lol that reminds me of when DH would bug out and have both the success and failure events for the july 20th coup fire and everyone in germany ends up dead Are you sure that wasn't some proto-betatest for TNO?
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Apr 27, 2019 00:17
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The only time I ever had fun in a HOI game was HOI2 Doomsday with friends when we formed the super alliance of Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Romania, knocked out Germany in 1936, made Italy Yugoslavia's puppet the next year, started WW2 against the Soviets and fought them until everyone ran out of manpower and we all sat watching each other with no troops until 1946. Sadly you can't have fun in HOI games since HOI3 and the annoying alliance mechanics.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:21
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Groogy posted:Maybe perfect ending wasn't implemented then, I saved everyone on the map and not a single one died. I didnt even exploit the children You also need to avoid getting any pop-ups that ask you to do something like heat up homes or keep people fed.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:28
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Koramei posted:I 110% understand why they don't, but my ideal response would be to constantly highlight the German war crimes and atrocities. On the flip side of the coin, then we'd have Nazis furiously masturbating over the game (more than they already are).
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Apr 27, 2019 00:38
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Baronjutter posted:There's so much unpacked ideology in here you'd need two dumpsters to even begin to eat from it. can we all appreciate this post because it's very good
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Apr 27, 2019 01:15
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Farecoal posted:Posters who are uncomfortable with Germany in Hearts of Iron, what your ideal response from Paradox be (and I don't mean this in a hostile way): cripple Germany? Make it non-playable? Not make a game about WW2 in the first place? I would understand if it was. Well to answer the other side of it, I find this sort of "You can do this, but I need to remind you, a literal child, that this is bad, so that these videogames don't corrupt you or that you ever think the wrong thoughts like maybe the Germans were somehow not trash" to be immersion breaking while playing a game. I prefer the more abstracted way of handling things so that concepts like slavery can be in Imperator or the Axis can be in HOI4.
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Apr 27, 2019 04:59
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there are people still alive today who were in nazi death camps - it's a little more fresh and painful than roman slavery
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Apr 27, 2019 05:03
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