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Cardassians clearly represent Canada who both did the whole camp-based cultural genocide thing with residential schools and japanese internment. If you think otherwise you're just some sort of canada-apologist.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:23
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It's not whether they're better or worse by dint of being associated with one or the other, it's that DS9 was written when that was still in the zeitgeist and coded them as such. Ironically you'd expect villains to be coded more as Nazis in the 2010s than the 1990s because they're more politically relevant now than they were then.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:30
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I can't remember, was Maritza a conscript? Did he ever say?
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Apr 25, 2019 18:32
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I don't think they ever mention conscription as such and certainly not in Duet.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:35
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Again lmao that everyone had such faith that the Bajoran govt would steamroll Marritza so hard they wouldn't even check to see if he was pretending to be someone dead (And as Dukat mentioned, after much public spectacle wrt his internment)
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Apr 25, 2019 18:37
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Pick posted:Again lmao that everyone had such faith that the Bajoran govt would steamroll Marritza so hard they wouldn't even check to see if he was pretending to be someone dead The Bajorans are incapable of a dispassionate historical perspective.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:39
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Baronjutter posted:The Bajorans are incapable of a dispassionate historical perspective. Maybe they need a strong dispassionate government to manage them and control their stupid impulses* * the federation of course
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Apr 25, 2019 18:45
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Also lol at the earlier suggestion that the Bajorans wouldn't simply check to see if Darheel was dead or not. Like, the whole thing hinges on the idea that this dudes travel documents all say "Maritza" but he's obviously someone else, and people are originally incredulous when Kira goes ape about him really being war crimes doing guy Darheel. Like, it's no stretch at all to imagine the Cardassian state might have just announced someone with as big a target on his back as being dead, given him a new identity, and all that, rendering that point totally moot. Certainly no human war criminals ever faked their own deaths, got new papers, then vanished only to turn up by accident years later.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:49
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thotsky posted:The British invented concentration camps, but they're not who comes to mind when you depict them. Ignoring the clear holocaust references of the episode and claiming that Cardassians is in no way a Nazi analogy is really silly, as is calling people tankies online because they don't agree with your take on a Star Trek culture. I just saw a generic pastiche in cardassia Probably the congo for Bajor's occupation, British Empire and Imperial Japan for its other expansiomary policies(CP is resource poor), Nazi germany for its "everyone was suffering until the military no longer needed accountability(but actually then it got really bad for a lot of people and disappearances and torturing and executing dissident voices)" and Japan for having little man syndrome and starting poo poo with the feddies due to supreme overconfidence. My headcanon is that Interstellar War was usually not fought with major battles ever, even most of the dominion war is fought with ambush tactics and smaller conflicts. The cost in personell is likely horrific to anyone but the dominion. Every time a ship is lost in Star Trek they also lose thousands of scientists, engineers, young command officers building a career. Unlike the dominion which loses...a bunch of clones. Oh well. That's why I figured the Earth Cardassia war was just a bit of shooting and then diplomacy. Maybe they popped a few obselete mirandas who were just patrol ships It's not that the federation could not crush cardassia, its that "crushing" in interstellar war is likely never not a phyrric victory. And then you're a conquering state, and then you have to help in reconstruction etc etc etc.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:51
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I can't remember, was Maritza a conscript? Did he ever say? Pick posted:I don't think they ever mention conscription as such and certainly not in Duet. He suggests that he was: quote:MARRITZA: I told you you'd be disappointed. Actually, I would have preferred to avoid military service altogether, but I had the good fortune to be posted to the records office at Gallitep, and I turned out to be an exemplary file clerk. It’s impossible to say how true this is of course since Marritza lies in like, every other line he speaks. At the moment he says it, he’s trying to portray himself as an unassuming bureaucrat who doesn’t really believe in the atrocities and can’t believe he’s being treated like a criminal for any other reason but bigotry, so it would serve his turn to claim he never wanted to join up. But it’s not entirely unbelievable either. Marritza is a coward; it’s difficult to imagine he really wanted to join the military, but on the other hand he was hardly frontline infantry and in some ways the story works dramatically better if we assumed he naively signed up of his own will.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:53
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Also lol at the earlier suggestion that the Bajorans wouldn't simply check to see if Darheel was dead or not. Like, the whole thing hinges on the idea that this dudes travel documents all say "Maritza" but he's obviously someone else, and people are originally incredulous when Kira goes ape about him really being war crimes doing guy Darheel. Like, it's no stretch at all to imagine the Cardassian state might have just announced someone with as big a target on his back as being dead, given him a new identity, and all that, rendering that point totally moot. You only really do that when you lose or are at threat. There was no looming recourse.
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Apr 25, 2019 18:59
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Duet is a very ‘we found a Nazi hiding in South America’ kind of plotline
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Apr 25, 2019 19:02
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Yeah I don't really believe that line or think it's reliable based on the iteration of the lie it's in. But maybe it's not!
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Apr 25, 2019 19:02
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FlamingLiberal posted:Duet is a very ‘we found a Nazi hiding in South America’ kind of plotline Again it's kind of horrific that people's historical frame of reference is so limited that you think that's somehow unique to Nazis. I saw news about this with respect to a Serbian war criminal like... this past week?
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Apr 25, 2019 19:05
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FlamingLiberal posted:Duet is a very ‘we found a Nazi hiding in South America’ kind of plotline Pick posted:Again it's kind of horrific that people's historical frame of reference is so limited that you think that's somehow unique to Nazis. I saw news about this with respect to a Serbian war criminal like... this past week? Its literally based on a film about a Nazi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_Glass_Booth Burning_Monk fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 19:08
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Pick posted:Again it's kind of horrific that people's historical frame of reference is so limited that you think that's somehow unique to Nazis. I saw news about this with respect to a Serbian war criminal like... this past week? I don't think anyone here's saying that nazis are the only thing this situation applies to, just that that's what was on the mind of the people who made that episode.
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Apr 25, 2019 19:12
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All fascists matter
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Apr 26, 2019 01:42
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Pick posted:Again it's kind of horrific that people's historical frame of reference is so limited that you think that's somehow unique to Nazis. I saw news about this with respect to a Serbian war criminal like... this past week? Yeah man anyone who knows ANYTHING about dictators knows that Pinochet's run during the junta years just blows the Nazis out of the water. It's like Hitler was the only dictator ever, nobody appreciates the modern greats. Hey you wanna come over later? I got a sweet pair of boots that probably used to belong to Enver Pasha. I'll let you try em on if you wanna strut around ^_^
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Apr 26, 2019 02:00
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Yeah man anyone who knows ANYTHING about dictators knows that Pinochet's run during the junta years just blows the Nazis out of the water. It's like Hitler was the only dictator ever, nobody appreciates the modern greats. You laugh but I absolutely had a phase where I read a lot about both of those men!! Enver Pasha is more interesting but Pinochet has more pictures shaking hands with george hw bush. Also I think they made out a lil bit but we don't have photos.
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Apr 26, 2019 02:04
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Did I seriously see someone accuse people of being historically ignorant for comparing the Cardassians to Nazis? An authoritarian regime that invades a foreign land to steal its resources, exploit and slaughter its religious population. Who fight against a faction literally named after the WWII French Resistance (this is the writers hitting you over the head with it, you loving dunce) Goddamn astonishing... edit: Just to be clear, yes you can draw plenty of parallels to other horrible regimes. Including the Soviets. That said, the Nazi allegory isn't even remotely loving subtle. Q_res fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 02:24
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quote:An authoritarian regime that invades a foreign land to steal its resources, exploit and slaughter its religious population. This honestly describes the Soviets far better than the Nazis, Gott mit uns vs. Бога Нет! Again, it's not that it makes the Cardassians better or worse to be associated with one or the other, my point is that the strong, deliberate parallels were derived from the American perception of its recent rivalry with the Soviet Union, which was particularly relevant in the 90s and largely forgotten today. It's not exclusive but it outpaces the others especially in some of the specific ways it's coded (e.g. constant drinkers, calling it the "Union", lizard KGB, etc.) There's been a frankly silly amount of revisionism about the USSR in particularly the last decade, again weird nostalgia from the nation that served up Katyn. Pick fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 02:36
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DS9 doesn't really use the "Cardassian Union" name that often, does it? I remember them mainly talking about the Cardassian Empire.
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Apr 26, 2019 04:21
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Cardassians represent FEMA, and Bajorans represent those nutsos who think FEMA is running death camps 
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Apr 26, 2019 05:13
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I'm making my way through DS9 for the first time. What season does this show really become awesome? Also, when does Worf join the show?
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Apr 26, 2019 15:45
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Spacebump posted:I'm making my way through DS9 for the first time. What season does this show really become awesome? Also, when does Worf join the show? Somewhere around halfway into season 3 (although there are marked improvements and a number of great episodes leading up to that) and Worf shows up in the first episode of season 4.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:50
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Spacebump posted:I'm making my way through DS9 for the first time. What season does this show really become awesome? Also, when does Worf join the show? Season 2 is really the first season to start setting up all the pieces for the larger arcs like the Dominion and the Ferengi culture, but season 3 is when you start to hit consistently great episodes. Worf comes aboard in the season 4 opener.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:51
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Spacebump posted:I'm making my way through DS9 for the first time. What season does this show really become awesome? The main plot kicks in at the end of season 2. But you should still watch seasons 1 and 2 because there’s a good bit of important stuff established and a good number of decent to excellent episodes. Spacebump posted:Also, when does Worf join the show? Start of season 4, which is when the show really kicks it up a notch.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:51
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Season 1 is middling but not at all bad, 2 is significantly better, 4 is awesome.
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Apr 26, 2019 16:09
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Season 1 is fun as hell!!
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Apr 26, 2019 16:37
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Pick posted:Season 1 is
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Apr 26, 2019 17:51
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It’s much better than season 1 of TNG, Voyager, Enterprise, or Discovery But at the same time it’s very different from what the show would become and its appeal is not really the same, with the exception of a couple darker episodes like Duet or Progress.
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Apr 26, 2019 17:53
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DS9 has no bad seasons, only bad episodes, but they are fewer and farther between than the star trek average.
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Apr 26, 2019 17:54
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DS9 season 1 and the first half of 2 are mostly mashing up superior TOS/TNG episodes, but then it finds its own identity and gets much better.
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Apr 26, 2019 18:08
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:DS9 season 1 and the first half of 2 are mostly mashing up superior TOS/TNG episodes, but then it finds its own identity and gets much better. It's also worth pointing out that season 3 of DS9 is when Michael Piller left the show to work on Voyager, and handed the reins over to Ira Steven Behr.
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Apr 26, 2019 21:52
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Man what a whiplash from Whispers to Paradise in DS9.
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Apr 27, 2019 01:02
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Kibbles n Shits posted:DS9 has no bad seasons, only bad episodes, but they are fewer and farther between than the star trek average.  That said you know when the show fully kicks into gear when The Sisko's hair is altered.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:28
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I would argue when there are more bad episodes then good it constitutes a bad season and S1 is certainly that and I think S2 dips close.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:51
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I don't think bad outweighs good in any DS9 season. First season is the worst, certainly. Only a few good episodes, several poo poo ones, mostly middling. I think season two is pretty strong though and it only gets better. I enjoyed the Dominion and the arcs and stuff but I do miss some of that season two episodic stuff, as well as the Bajor politics.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:55
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IMO Season 1's worse episodes are only really bad when stacked up to season 3+. In a vacuum they are competent Trek, entertaining enough in their own right just not what made DS9 so memorable and good. But yea thankfully it quit trying to be TNG pretty soon into its run.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:58
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Spacebump posted:I'm making my way through DS9 for the first time. What season does this show really become awesome? Also, when does Worf join the show? Episode 9, "Move Along Home" is unironically one of the best episodes of Star Trek ever produced. It's funny, it's weird, like TOS-era weird.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:59
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