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Ruzihm posted:So you don't agree with the arguments presented in the piece that the sanctions precluded a rapid solution to the hyperinflation? neither of us said either of those things
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Apr 26, 2019 21:58
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I think saying the sanctions hurt people and made the economy worse is very different from attributing all negative outcomes to them. Are the general sanctions bad? Yes- that's not new. Is the article's actual claims and reasoning poo poo? Also yes. To give a simple example, you could take a differential trajectory on major economic indicators for the periods before and after the 2017 sanctions and create a coefficient for specific domestic macroeconomic markers. That still wouldn't get you to ground-level outcomes like mortality, because you know what? The Maduro government is still corrupt and diverting resources! You don't get to ignore what the country's own government is doing with its economy! This is making me take a closer look at CEPR and Weisbrot's previous endorsements of Chavez and Maduro. So far it's not a good look, though I'm having to dig past a layer of shittiness from places like the national review to get to his positions. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 22:02
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What do you think about the article's actual claim and reasoning that the sanctions did preclude a policy that could have substantially addressed the hyperinflation issue? It's unclear if that's included in what you're calling 'poo poo' or not. edit: the part I was replying to specifically got edited out but w/e Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 22:10
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Discendo Vox posted:You don't get to ignore what the country's own government is doing with its economy! Who does "you" refer to and what does "ignore" mean in this post? Because it reads to me as some kind moral justification for the US government to do whatever it feels to the country of Venezuela.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:19
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Even if the sanctions hurt people, maduro is still an incompetent rear end in a top hat because he covered his ears and screamed that there was no humanitarian crisis and nothing was wrong for years as a refugee crisis occurred and charities were barred from operating in Venezuela until recently.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:27
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zapplez posted:Are you still doing that pathetic thing where you pretend any Venezuelans on the internet that want maduro gone must in fact be roleplayers? You have a quote for this, or are you just gonna get mad at anyone who doesn't like Elliot Brain-bash or Elliot Brain-bash's friends?
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Apr 26, 2019 22:31
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Kobayashi posted:Who does "you" refer to and what does "ignore" mean in this post? Because it reads to me as some kind moral justification for the US government to do whatever it feels to the country of Venezuela. Is it moral to for a nation to allow its banks to launder/process embezzled money? Or should steps be taken to freeze such assets until they can be returned to the people it was stolen from? What if overseas assets were bought with stolen money? Then when money got short, the criminals tried to sell the assets to get the money back? Should a country allow this? A guy comes by and pays you to store a painting. Later, someone else contacts you and claims he is the real owner of the painting. You think, based on the story both told you, that it's quite possible the second guy really does own the painting. Then the first guy shows up and demands the painting, which you think belongs to the second guy. Do you just shrug and hand it over? Do you have any ethical responsibility here?
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Apr 26, 2019 22:37
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Rust Martialis posted:Is it moral to for a nation to allow its banks to launder/process embezzled money? Or should steps be taken to freeze such assets until they can be returned to the people it was stolen from? It's obviously your moral obligation to starve both their kids and throw molotov cocktails into their houses.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:39
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Rust Martialis posted:Is it moral to for a nation to allow its banks to launder/process embezzled money? Or should steps be taken to freeze such assets until they can be returned to the people it was stolen from? the correct thing to do is to send un election observers despite what any political party or coalition wants you to do.
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Apr 26, 2019 22:58
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uninterrupted posted:It's obviously your moral obligation to starve both their kids and throw molotov cocktails into their houses. I am interested to hear your explanation of how freezing the foreign assets of Venezuela's most crooked billionaires is actually throwing a molotov at a house. Ruzihm posted:the correct thing to do is to send un election observers despite what any political party or coalition wants you to do. That's an interesting solution to embezzlement from the people of Venezuela you have there. Doesn't seem like that's an election inspector's wheelhouse?
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Apr 26, 2019 22:59
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https://twitter.com/SecPompeo/status/1121877904718168064 The stamp means big sanctions.
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Apr 26, 2019 23:01
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Rust Martialis posted:Is it moral to for a nation to allow its banks to launder/process embezzled money? Or should steps be taken to freeze such assets until they can be returned to the people it was stolen from? also, interesting how your analogy of sanctions leaves out the sanctions forbidding the trading of Venezuelan bonds in us markets  edit: quoted the wrong post Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 23:06
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uninterrupted posted:You have a quote for this, or are you just gonna get mad at anyone who doesn't like Elliot Brain-bash or Elliot Brain-bash's friends? What are you trying to say when you call the actual Venezuelans posting here "real Venezuelans"? What bullshit point are you trying to make with the quotation marks ? Why are you trying to claim they aren't actually from the country and aren't sincere ?
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Apr 26, 2019 23:26
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fishmech posted:That's an interesting solution to embezzlement from the people of Venezuela you have there. Doesn't seem like that's an election inspector's wheelhouse? Why do you think it is appropriate for the United States to impose its "solutions" on Venezuela in general, and what would lead you to trust the Trump administration to do so in particular?
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Apr 26, 2019 23:29
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Kobayashi posted:Who does "you" refer to and what does "ignore" mean in this post? Because it reads to me as some kind moral justification for the US government to do whatever it feels to the country of Venezuela. Then you should read the post again. "you" refers to the authors, and "ignore" refers to all causal sources of economic control, harm, or agency other than sanctions. This is a problem if you (again, referring to the authors) are trying to measure the effects of sanctions. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 00:22
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zapplez posted:What are you trying to say when you call the actual Venezuelans posting here "real Venezuelans"? What bullshit point are you trying to make with the quotation marks ? Why are you trying to claim they aren't actually from the country and aren't sincere ? Quotation marks are used to indicate certain phrases are quoted from other people, in this case the wealthy Venezuelan expats who giddily cheered on the humanitarian crisis caused by the the trump administration and their hand-picked puppet, Guaido. I assume the answer to my original question is "no"? Also, quotes for the rest of your histrionic whining? edit: i see why quotation marks confuse you, they're basically the opposite of your MO; using sockpuppets to argue with yourself. uninterrupted fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 00:32
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Pharohman777 posted:Even if the sanctions hurt people, maduro is still an incompetent rear end in a top hat  So you are admitting now that the sanctions hurt people? That is kind of the whole discussion here.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:57
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uninterrupted posted:Quotation marks are used to indicate certain phrases are quoted from other people, in this case the wealthy Venezuelan expats who giddily cheered on the humanitarian crisis caused by the the trump administration and their hand-picked puppet, Guaido. Using sockpuppets is pretty shameful. Being cool with mass starvation and corruption because the government used to be socialist and thats all you can identify with, pretty shameful. Its easy to be firm with saying socialism can do no wrong when you live in a free country and you have never been hungry. You dumb gently caress.
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Apr 27, 2019 01:09
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Kobayashi posted:Indefensible cruelty by the United States against the citizens of Venezuela, and people who oppose ending the sanctions are complicit. It's amazing how setting up an economic blockade of an entire country could have knock-on effects like this, surely no one could ever have seen this coming!
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Apr 27, 2019 01:32
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zapplez posted:Using sockpuppets is pretty shameful. Being cool with mass starvation and corruption because the government used to be socialist and thats all you can identify with, pretty shameful. *zapple throws his voice to the other side of the room> "Yeah, you go get him zapple! Thanks for representing all us poor Venezuelans thirsty for Pragmatic Moderate Austerity Measures!" *zapple stops throwing his voice across the room "Why you're welcome. Feel free to subsist on rotten sewage water now that I've freed you from socialist concepts like 'potability' and 'toxicity'."
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Apr 27, 2019 01:32
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WampaLord posted:
Yeah, the sanctions hurt people, and maduro made it so much worse with his policies and screaming that nothing was wrong and denying aid. Dunno how its goalpost shifting to acknowledge facts.
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Apr 27, 2019 01:35
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, the sanctions hurt people, and maduro made it so much worse with his policies and screaming that nothing was wrong and denying aid. Venezuela has accepted aid from every country and international organization not actively coup'ing their government though. If Pence and Guaido wanted that aid in Venezuela they could have just asked Red Cross to deliver it
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Apr 27, 2019 01:38
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420 Gank Mid posted:Venezuela has accepted aid from every country and international organization not actively coup'ing their government though. Again, this is a lie, and it's a lie we've already discussed in depth. From 2018: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article199179509.html https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/diplomats-urge-venezuela-allow-humanitarian-aid-alleviate-crisis-n907056 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/countries-urge-venezuela-accept-aid-rule-of-law-maduro-1.4734681 Hell, from 2016: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/world/americas/venezuela-refuses-us-aid.html
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Apr 27, 2019 01:59
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420 Gank Mid posted:Venezuela has accepted aid from every country and international organization not actively coup'ing their government though. The standard response for years has been "We don't even need aid, everything is fine". Hell, that was the official response a few months ago during a mass exodus of millions of Venezuelans. But hey, imaging is more important than actually helping out your people.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:01
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When the refugee crisis was just starting over 2 years ago, maduro and the PSUV were all saying there was nothing wrong, and refused all aid attempts. Even as malnourished and sick Venezuelans fled to neighboring countries, Maduro was saying there was no humanitarian crisis, and refused charities access to the country. Maduro made himself magnitudes worse than the sanctions just by deliberately refusing charity and aid offered as the sick and hungry fled his nation to look for food and medical treatment. Maduro made a conscious decision to allow his people to starve and suffer when offered relief by aid organizations a few years ago. He is a monster.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:14
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Kobayashi posted:Why do you think it is appropriate for the United States to impose its "solutions" on Venezuela in general, and what would lead you to trust the Trump administration to do so in particular? You're going to have to show me where Donald Trump ever ordered UN elections inspectors to go to Venezuela , if you're going to start building this insane strawman.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:32
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, the sanctions hurt people, and maduro made it so much worse with his policies and screaming that nothing was wrong and denying aid. Well, at least we can agree that the sanctions should end immediately. 
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Apr 27, 2019 02:32
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fishmech posted:You're going to have to show me where Donald Trump ever ordered UN elections inspectors to go to Venezuela , if you're going to start building this insane strawman. My apologies, I thought you were one of the posters who supported US sanctions against Venezuela.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:35
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Kobayashi posted:My apologies, I thought you were one of the posters who supported US sanctions against Venezuela. If you believe "the sanctions" consist of Donald Trump directing the UN to inspect elections in Venezuela, I think you really need to stop attempting to talk about the country.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:40
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Again, there are multiple different kinds of sanctions, with different effects.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:40
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fishmech posted:If you believe "the sanctions" consist of Donald Trump directing the UN to inspect elections in Venezuela, I think you really need to stop attempting to talk about the country. I categorically oppose all US sanctions against Venezuela, and agree the the latter half of your comment would be good US policy.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:45
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Kobayashi posted:Who does "you" refer to and what does "ignore" mean in this post? Because it reads to me as some kind moral justification for the US government to do whatever it feels to the country of Venezuela. This could be the last post in this thread. This post is perfect.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:47
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Kobayashi posted:I categorically oppose all US sanctions against Venezuela, and agree the the latter half of your comment would be good US policy. Well you're wrong to oppose the freezing of assets in billionaires' bank accounts which are located outside of Venezuela, which is most of the sanctions that exist! Hope this helps, and also you should lead by example if you truly believe in what you just wrote.
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Apr 27, 2019 02:48
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Kobayashi posted:I categorically oppose all US sanctions against Venezuela, and agree the the latter half of your comment would be good US policy. I categorically oppose all presidents that let their people starve while they funnel all the countries wealth to their friends and family.Those presidents should immediately be removed from office. How do you stand on that policy?
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Apr 27, 2019 02:49
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fishmech posted:Well you're wrong to oppose the freezing of assets in billionaires' bank accounts which are located outside of Venezuela, which is most of the sanctions that exist! Hope this helps, and also you should lead by example if you truly believe in what you just wrote. zapplez posted:I categorically oppose all presidents that let their people starve while they funnel all the countries wealth to their friends and family.Those presidents should immediately be removed from office. How do you stand on that policy? In both of these posts, it's just assumed that is acceptable for the United States to judge the actions of another government (thread rules edit: Venezuela) and intervene as it sees fit. I reject that assumption.
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Apr 27, 2019 03:04
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Discendo Vox posted:Again, this is a lie, and it's a lie we've already discussed in depth. From 2018: How does venezuela refusing aid from nations trying to overthrow their government make what I said a lie exactly? Of course they would refuse US Aid. The problem a lot of people like you have is in realizing that the USA is not the only other country in the world aid can come from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNpR2mN5LdE Throwing around words like "lie" when you yourself seem to have such a selective blindness when it comes to this issue is a bad look. zapplez posted:The standard response for years has been "We don't even need aid, everything is fine". 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 03:09
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420 Gank Mid posted:How does venezuela refusing aid from nations trying to overthrow their government make what I said a lie exactly? Of course they would refuse US Aid. Are you just trolling at this point? You do realize only a few months ago Maduro stated publicly he doesnt need AID FROM ANYONE because there is NO HUMANITARIAN CRISIS. Shortly after he flew out a bunch of naive journalists and gave them guided tours of a supermarket well stocked in condiments. The twittersphere ate it up.
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Apr 27, 2019 03:12
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zapplez posted:Are you just trolling at this point? Pretending that Maduro is categorically refusing all aid is just ignoring reality.
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Apr 27, 2019 03:13
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Kobayashi posted:In both of these posts, it's just assumed that is acceptable for the United States to judge the actions of another government (thread rules edit: Venezuela) and intervene as it sees fit. I reject that assumption. There is literally nothing bold about the ongoing existence of international politics, much less that touching on Venezuela. Why are you so insistent that Switzerland can't seize accounts they suspect of being tied to out-of-country criminals for instance?
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Apr 27, 2019 03:16
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420 Gank Mid posted:No, trolling would be asking if you forgot to log into your sockpuppet before posting this. No one in this thread has said Maduro is currently refusing all aid. But he has a heinous track record of refusing aid, including very recently saying for a journalist they don't need any help because everything is fine. How do you not understand that is hosed up? vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 03:20
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