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Vlex posted:How do I get my economy rolling as ME Ikit? I've conquered southern bretonnia and Estalia, with about 7-8 under cities in various strategic locations, including Altdorf and Lothern. With two armies I'm still only pulling in ~2-3k a turn at turn 70 or so and it feels like I'm missing something. Make sure your capital building has a warpstone generator (The income x0.6 building) and make sure all empty building slots are filled, even if only by something cheap. Just expanding and keeping your settlements growing should allow for pretty fast expansion. 70 turns in and only having Southern Bretonnia and Estalia sounds like it's slow going though - Skaven benefit from quantity of settlements more than quality when income is onvolved.
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Apr 28, 2019 09:49
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The trick, I would suggest, is don't conquer everything. Instead put under empires everywhere you can, and build the mining districts to spread them further. Each one can get you a bit of free cash and food and they spread for free after a while. Under extremely valuable cities like altdorf, use the building that steals a percentage of the income of the city, altdorf brings in like 3000 per turn so you can get 1500 with that chain fully upgraded. Conquer the estalian peninsula because it's a really good province, and your warpstone reactor will hugely buff the ports, and then pick other provinces you like the look of from there. I haven't touched brettonia because it's full of undercities and they're welcome to fight each other as long as I keep getting rich off them.  I have estalia, tilea, skipped the edge of the gulf and conquered a bit of the southern badlands. And then I sailed west to go beat up lizards. You don't need territory to get daft as skaven. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Apr 28, 2019 |
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Apr 28, 2019 09:50
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team overhead smash posted:Make sure your capital building has a warpstone generator (The income x0.6 building) and make sure all empty building slots are filled, even if only by something cheap. Just expanding and keeping your settlements growing should allow for pretty fast expansion. 70 turns in and only having Southern Bretonnia and Estalia sounds like it's slow going though - Skaven benefit from quantity of settlements more than quality when income is onvolved. Not gonna lie, I've been taking it deliberately slow to gently caress with my other neighbors after I had locked Estalia down. I'm just surprised that the under cities aren't nearly as lucrative as some effusive posting itt made me think.
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Apr 28, 2019 09:52
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sassassin posted:Units recruitment buildings should be removed entirely. City management should be decisions between general economy, regional defence, and specific upgrades/discounts to units you think are coolest. You've described the ThroB economy to a T. It's one of the best design decisions in that game (although it introduces other ways of limiting access to high-tier units, so they're still special).
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Apr 28, 2019 09:53
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Vlex posted:Not gonna lie, I've been taking it deliberately slow to gently caress with my other neighbors after I had locked Estalia down. I'm just surprised that the under cities aren't nearly as lucrative as some effusive posting itt made me think. They're incredibly lucrative you just need to snowball them. Get them out every 10 turns, and always build the building that spreads them and upgrade it. That exponential expansion is the key. They're not individually good unless they're under a very good city, but you can get shitloads of them with minimal effort if you seed them across the map.
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Apr 28, 2019 09:55
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sassassin posted:Units recruitment buildings should be removed entirely. City management should be decisions between general economy, regional defence, and specific upgrades/discounts to units you think are coolest. Very much agree. I believe TW should have done this a long time ago and I'm kind of surprised there are no mods that do this. There should still be military buildings as you say, but they should more do stuff like provide cost reductions, reduce training times or give you extra recruitment slots where appropriate. I kind of hate "tiers" in army rosters, I feel like in a game like this the rosters should be designed with as few direct upgrade units as possible, with the intention of making every unit have its use throughout the campaign. But even if you do this, alot of factions will be severely limited by being unable to calll upon more than 2 or 3 units at the start of a campaign which will often mean they can't really be played to their iconic strengths. Only the most power/ludicrous units should be unlocked later, powerful monsters and war machines mostly, either behind high level buildings or rites. Also the game would do well with a kind of unit restriction system for armies or the faction as a whole (there's already mods that do this, both using the TK's as base to have faction-wide recruitment restriction and limit how many units of each type you can have in an army).
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Apr 28, 2019 10:38
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Krazyface posted:You've described the ThroB economy to a T. It's one of the best design decisions in that game (although it introduces other ways of limiting access to high-tier units, so they're still special). Very few units should be "high tier". Swordmasters are cool but your army should be better off with a line of mostly spearmen due to their greater numbers and shields. Magic handmaiden arrows are nice but usually more arrows are better. Recruitment times, upkeep costs etc. the game has more than enough balancing options to work with. The problem with the current system is by the time you can get "high tier" unit buildings most of them no longer matter so you can spam Phoenix Guard right away, as if they're an AD unit replacing your BC scrubs, and not special and rare at all.
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Apr 28, 2019 10:42
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Unit caps solve the phoenix guard spam and are one of many things I hope Warham 3 steals from luckys Actually if Warham 3 doesn't steal luckys skill and veterancy system then I'll be genuinely annoyed
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Apr 28, 2019 10:50
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I'm a firm believer in army slots for Core/Special/Rare units like in tabletop, but a 1:1 translation won't suffice (see: Dwarf army book), so definitely put in some work to balance things out. One of advantages I can see from this is that you can balance the rarer units so that they actually feel like they're worth the slot. Take Dwarf Irondrakes, for example: complete monsters in early game but become irrelevant as the campaign progresses due to lack of AP damage, despite lorewise being one of the most powerful ranged units in lore. If you could only take one unit of Irondrakes into battle no matter what, then it'd be fine if they ended up getting proper AP damage on their shooting, so that they can stay powerful and a key component of your army even against Chaos, which was in fact one of their best uses in TT.
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Apr 28, 2019 10:54
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Hentai Jihadist posted:Unit caps solve the phoenix guard spam and are one of many things I hope Warham 3 steals from luckys The only thing I have against luckys is he still thinks every goblin fight should be a 2:1 unit wise and not abstracted with model counts in a unit. There is a hard limit on how many units you can bring into a battle and can produce a turn so it just makes no sense to require double the units to kill something.
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Apr 28, 2019 11:11
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Vlex posted:How do I get my economy rolling as ME Ikit? I've conquered southern bretonnia and Estalia, with about 7-8 under cities in various strategic locations, including Altdorf and Lothern. With two armies I'm still only pulling in ~2-3k a turn at turn 70 or so and it feels like I'm missing something.  Not shown: 20+ Undercities. I have 15k+ income a turn and net about 20-30 a turn before battles. I sacked and razed Tobaro right out the gate while recruiting a second general. I then hopped over the mountains into Carcassone where I sacked and Under-City'd both both of their cities while getting both of my generals the +10 Reinforcement Rate bonus from beating The Fay Entrchantress in battle. I then went counter-clockwise around Estalia, conquering it. Then I built up Ikit's army with some better units and took Tilea, then The Vaults, then all of the Border Prince's land. Now I'm using two armies based in Averland, where I have under cities that give the reinforce rate and movement bonus, and I am raiding the everloving poo poo out of the southern bits of The Empire. I am doing the same thing in the Blood River valley to gently caress with the Dwarfs. I have under-cities expanding via the Under-City "Mineshaft" buildings in Brettonia, The Empire (via a DOOOOM Engineer going to Altdorf), Not Africa via seeding an under city in Al Haikk and Black Tower of Arkhan, Ulthuan via DOOOOM Engineer in Lothern, and Lustria via a recent DOOOOM Engineer in Xlanhuapec. 90% of my Under-Cities have Warp-Token Stash and Scavenger Raiders buildings by default, which provides a trickle of income and stabilized then rocketed my food production; 75% of them have the Mineshaft building to expand the Under-Empire. Once a settlement is surrounded by under-cities, I switch the Mineshaft buildings to Warpstone Refineries or something else useful at the time. One thing that took me a while to realize is that Under-City buildings come second - build up your actual settlements first - they provide more income. I think the big key for me was establishing a few under-cities via combat with armies from the get-go, and sacking every settlement I could, even I would then turn around and immediately colonize it. I paid the food cost of starting all of Estalia's cities off at 3 (for the two minors) and 4 for the capital, and I built allllll income buildings except in Bilbali where I put a defensive building (which still provides income!) and as another poster mentioned, I always max out the Slave Wheel => Warpstone Reactor building. Another key thing was fighting a lot - Skaven get bonuses to post-battle loot and they get food. Being food-positive the whole game has let me max out every settlement I take, which lets me spam income generating buildings at a good rate. It essentially turned into a positive feedback loop of money and food income. Now that I have a good little empire established I'm, as mentioned, trying out some of the new buildings and raiding the pinata of minor settlements in the southern bits of the Empire (north of the Black Mountain region, which I own). I have gotten even more fabulously wealthy from doing this, which is letting me recruit a 5th army and start maxing out more of my Under-Cities. This has been my favorite campaign playthrough to date, and its my first time playing Skaven! AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Apr 28, 2019 |
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Apr 28, 2019 12:45
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I won't be content until I see someone nuke the Galleon's Graveyard.
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Apr 28, 2019 12:47
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My phoenix guard units always get chewed to bits by tier 1 missile troops (the kind of fire shielded units shrug off) so I can't say the AI spamming them is a problem for me as much as it is for them. The AI is very dumb with its era-based recruitment, can't play the buildings game, and needs money cheats to even function. Simplifying things can only lead to better battles. Which surely is the whole point.
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Apr 28, 2019 12:53
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Blooming Brilliant posted:I won't be content until I see someone nuke the Galleon's Graveyard. They also own Angerrial in Lothern lol
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Apr 28, 2019 12:56
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Skaven for some weird reason seem really friendly with vampires and tomb kings.
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Apr 28, 2019 13:21
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Third World Reagan posted:The only thing I have against luckys is he still thinks every goblin fight should be a 2:1 unit wise and not abstracted with model counts in a unit. I think it has a bunch of issues, mainly balance related but also the odd stupid idea. But the skills system in particular and also the garrison system is basically just really elegant. In particular I like how the skill system is basically one change that revitalises at least 3 game systems: skills, veterancy, levelling lords and gives them focus while also making each level matter unlike in vanilla how generally you need 3 levels to get a full buff. The new treasure hunt stuff just makes it even better.
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Apr 28, 2019 13:30
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tomb kings like everyone strong, and vampires, altho still having an affinity malus with skaven, still end up squatting with them outside the Goody Two Shoes Club after being put on one of their poo poo lists. What annoys me when playing skaven is how hard it is to get trade partners. Dark Elfs and Tomb Kings are sometimes far off or weirdly landlocked, vampire counts are often standoffish jerks, norsca is always jerks and get double great power penalties, and orcs, beastmen, and chaos don't trade at all. It sure helps fuel resentment to the goodly folk; wish I could phone them up and go "I have a doomsphere under your capitals, and I will detonate them unless you... buy one million pounds of warpstone infused salt!"
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Apr 28, 2019 13:38
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OwlFancier posted:Skaven for some weird reason seem really friendly with vampires and tomb kings. Tiler Kiwi posted:What annoys me when playing skaven is how hard it is to get trade partners. Dark Elfs and Tomb Kings are sometimes far off or weirdly landlocked, vampire counts are often standoffish jerks, norsca is always jerks and get double great power penalties, and orcs, beastmen, and chaos don't trade at all. It sure helps fuel resentment to the goodly folk; wish I could phone them up and go "I have a doomsphere under your capitals, and I will detonate them unless you... buy one million pounds of warpstone infused salt!"
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Apr 28, 2019 14:05
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Ravenfood posted:Yeah I would love something that basically changed it so you got access to everything early but couldnt use many of them. Thrones of Britannia experiments with this! Among other things that didn't go so well
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Apr 28, 2019 14:30
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Theswarms posted:Thrones of Britannia experiments with this! But what if they tried it with actually interesting units?
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Apr 28, 2019 14:38
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I will say it. All skaven goods are cheaply made and not worth the trade deals.
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Apr 28, 2019 14:39
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Third World Reagan posted:I will say it. Also, they tend to be radioactive.
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Apr 28, 2019 14:51
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S1VXU9csupjqfJ3uJN-x4bbRvj9Mmrak0TC_tmdRVgo/preview SFO changelog looking good, new version likely out next week I think. Finally have hochland long rifles in! More guns for the gun god. Third World Reagan posted:I will say it. The Lone Badger posted:Also, they tend to be radioactive.
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Apr 28, 2019 15:01
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Did SFO the mod team resolve their dispute with Steel Faith the guy (and nazi)? It felt lovely that they did like two years of work with der Führer missing in action, got a successful patreon going, and then out of nowhere he comes back and yells at them for stealing his mod.
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Apr 28, 2019 15:37
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Did SFO the mod team resolve their dispute with Steel Faith the guy (and nazi)? It felt lovely that they did like two years of work with der Führer missing in action, got a successful patreon going, and then out of nowhere he comes back and yells at them for stealing his mod. The guy successfully killed the WH1 version, I think, but shouldn't be able to do anything about the WH2 version because he's not the original uploader.
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Apr 28, 2019 15:46
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I was excited to play TW2 again with the rats and my new SSD, but I was waiting on the mods for so long that I ended up getting a new GPU in the meantime. Gonna blow up everything with Actual Graphics this time around. Also, Lucky's is also getting updated next week. He's doing a Greenskin revamp, and the changes I've been following look absolutely fantastic too. I should write up some stuff for it once it's out.
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Apr 28, 2019 16:27
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toasterwarrior posted:I was excited to play TW2 again with the rats and my new SSD, but I was waiting on the mods for so long that I ended up getting a new GPU in the meantime. Gonna blow up everything with Actual Graphics this time around. I'm stoked for the Greenskin revamp except his weird insistence that goblins need double units to kill anyone.
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Apr 28, 2019 16:37
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Yeah I mean you would surely simulate that with unit numbers rather than actually forcing people to carry around two stacks?
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Apr 28, 2019 16:55
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah I mean you would surely simulate that with unit numbers rather than actually forcing people to carry around two stacks? Even doubled unit sizes gets unwieldy when it comes time to render them all in a battle.
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Apr 28, 2019 17:00
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Would it be possible to extend army reinforcement ranges so far that they encompass an entire province? I kind of want a ghetto version of the Shogun 1 map where I can get stacks to fight together without having to worry about where the pawns are beyond a wide general area. I'm sure there's a hundred reasons why this is a bad idea but i still wanna try it.
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Apr 28, 2019 17:05
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Devorum posted:Even doubled unit sizes gets unwieldy when it comes time to render them all in a battle. But you're doing that anyway if you're expecting people to lug around two stacks..? You've got the same number of models on the field either way, just more overhead. Unless you particularly need the finesse of being able to split your mass of trash gobbos into forty units instead of twenty, I'd rather have bigger units. Though yeah I don't know that it actually needs to be 2 to 1 unless you want to make ammunition scarcity a thing vs gobs.
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Apr 28, 2019 17:07
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literally nothing happens at work on sunday even though two of us are required to be here, so here's my dream lord pack if we get cross-game lord packs: Eltharion the Grim:  vs! Grom the Paunch:  Now what would they bring to the table? Eltharion is a hybrid melee-caster from Yvresse, one of the punching bag high elf factions. He also rides a griffon, which would set him apart from the regular dragon-riding smuglords. On top of all that, he has an alternate canon where after being maimed in a raid on Naggaroth, he becomes a blind swordmaster. Picture Luke wearing that jedi-training helmet but as a medieval elf. The dual Eltharions could be an interesting campaign choice like how Tyrion and Malekith have two trees: you could go for the griffon and the casting, or for a melee beast who has to footslog. The former would probably always be mechanically better, but in campaign, who cares? Now what lore of magic would he have? In tabletop, he was only a sorry level 2 caster, but had access to all the lores plus high magic, as any respectable high elf wizard does. To keep him unique, I'd give him the loremaster spell tree. Lots of versatile low-tier spells but not the nukes that the better casters get. His campaign bonuses? That's questionable. Essentially, every high elf unit besides the basic spears, archers, and silver helms are tied to a specific province of Ulthuan. Each province has a unique unit. Except Yvresse. Their gimmick is having the most battle-hardened militia, and Tyrion already has the militia buffs. But I could see him making his spears and archers better where Tyrion just makes them cheaper. What units would he bring? Difficult again. The high elves aren't really missing a lot of units. The only ones I can think of are the silliest ones- the lion chariot and the flying chariot. White Lion Chariots are a fun idea but they do pretty much what the Ithilmar Chariot already does, and I agree with CA making the high-tier chariot a horsey one. I have two cats. They play-fight. Giant cats killing dudes is fun to imagine but I can't imagine them succeeding while strapped into a chariot. Animating a lion chariot well seems impossible. The Lothern Skycutter, which is basically a podracer but with an eagle, is more realistic as a roster addition imo. It still looks kind of silly and makes one wonder why the eagle is there at all when the chariot car is already magic enough to hover, but it has a unique role. It's basically a flying bolt-thrower. Eltharion, however, could also bring several hero units to the table instead of the wacky chariots. There's the Anointed of Asuryan, a sort of high elf warrior priest who can ride one of the phoenixes, and the Sea Helm, who is... actually not that interesting, but he can ride a flying chariot. Then for a made-up unit, I'd add feral white lions over the lion chariot. They could operate like all the doggo units, but a bit more elite. They'd be slower and have fewer models, but more AP and damage. This sort of unit would have much more of a role and be way less dumb-looking than lions in a chariot. Now where would Eltharion start? Tor Yvresse is the obvious choice, but another high elf in Ulthuan would be pretty drat boring and if anything, Grom would start there to spice it up. I'd put Eltharion somewhere in the desert on the Vortex map, and in the badlands on the ME map- you can fluff it the same way on both, have him going to exact retribution on some greenskins. Grom incoming, he has a lot more to talk about Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 28, 2019 |
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Apr 28, 2019 17:08
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Grom should have varying states of fatness starting at his canonical size until he's a 55 stone Terror-causing flesh mountain.
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Apr 28, 2019 17:13
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If I had to guess what we’re still getting for lords I think southern realms is still on the table; it would be a modified empire roster rather than a completely unique army book, with some sort of mercenary mechanic to replace the offices of the empire. Probably would include a bunch of mercenary units from different races as campaign only RoRs
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Apr 28, 2019 17:15
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Just change the names of Imperial offices and you'd be fine. "Ratcatcher Supreme" instead of "Arch Lector", etc.
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Apr 28, 2019 17:18
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Eltharion should start in Saphery with a hidden route through the mountains added leading to Tor Yvresse, which is a ruin or inhabited by Grom. Quest missions then send you to kill every orc in the old world. I give CA permission to rip off my (no longer updated) version here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1216153052
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Apr 28, 2019 18:05
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Scrub-Niggurath posted:If I had to guess what we’re still getting for lords I think southern realms is still on the table; it would be a modified empire roster rather than a completely unique army book, with some sort of mercenary mechanic to replace the offices of the empire. Probably would include a bunch of mercenary units from different races as campaign only RoRs This would suck. First of all the Empire actual is still missing units, legendary lords and additional starting positions. Second there's actually quite alot of Tilea stuff in the old lore and rules and they aren't a palette-swapped Empire. Third Dogs of War (and that essentially means Tilea) could make a whole lot of sense to do for Game 3, especially as it would make sense to release some Ogre Kingdoms units and characters alongside them, particularly if they come with a new mercenary mechanic.
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Apr 28, 2019 18:13
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Randarkman posted:This would suck. First of all the Empire actual is still missing units, legendary lords and additional starting positions. Second there's actually quite alot of Tilea stuff in the old lore and rules and they aren't a palette-swapped Empire. Third Dogs of War (and that essentially means Tilea) could make a whole lot of sense to do for Game 3, especially as it would make sense to release some Ogre Kingdoms units and characters alongside them, particularly if they come with a new mercenary mechanic. If they dont do my suggestion from upthread (maybe a page or two ago) about picking which continents are in your campaign, I would like to see WH:TW3 have a campaign map entirely on the old world, leaving Ulthuan and Not-The-Americas off. Then you could still have High Elves by putting Eltharion in the badlands and maybe bring Alith Anar over as an alternate or something, since his faction likes living in badlands. Then they could update Empire without qualms.
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Apr 28, 2019 18:45
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:If they dont do my suggestion from upthread (maybe a page or two ago) about picking which continents are in your campaign, I would like to see WH:TW3 have a campaign map entirely on the old world, leaving Ulthuan and Not-The-Americas off. Then you could still have High Elves by putting Eltharion in the badlands and maybe bring Alith Anar over as an alternate or something, since his faction likes living in badlands. Then they could update Empire without qualms. I wouldn't count out the campaign map for Warhammer 3, essentialy being Warhammer 1's plus the east up until the Mountains of Mourn. By itself the East doesn't really have nearly as much stuff in it as either the Old World west of the World's Edge Mountains or the massive map of the Lustria and the Southlands they did for Warhammer 2. So doing just the East by itself probably wouldn't be that great unless you basically make it an expanded version of Warhammer 1's map, or you do the crazy route and include Cathay. Basically the only stuff in the area they would have to expand the map to, is Chaos hordes in the Chaos Wastes and the Eastern Steppes, Greenskin tribes in the mountains and Hobgoblin hordes in the Eastern Steppes, the Chaos Dwarfs' Empire in the Dark Lands (which they've basically turned into a barren Mordor-land) and the Ogre Kingdoms in the Mountains of Mourn. Now the Chaos hordes aren't aching to destroy the Ogre Kingdoms they are about invading and destroying the Human empires of the Old World (especially the Empire) or Cathay (which probably won't be featured), neither are they set on invading the Chaos Dwarfs (in fact the Chaos Dwarfs are some of their most important trading partners as they make and sell them weapons and armor). And when the Ogres aren't fighting each other they aren't really launching invasions of the Steppes (what would be the point of that even?) or the Dark Lands, they are fighting as mercenaries all over the Old World. So yeah, the Game 3 map and campaign essentially being an expanded version of Game 1's doesn''t strike me as especially unlikely, it may even be one of the best ways to have something for these new factions to do as there isn't really that much for them to do if the map was exclusively the areas the map will have to be expanded to to include the new factions. To be honest I would really love this actually. The Game 1 campaign was great, but I can't go back to it with all the improvements and additions of Game 2. You could even find some way to represent most of the game 2 factions as well in some capacity (with everyone and everything being represented on the massively bloated Mortal Empries map), maybe even all if you include a portion of the Southlands. Though not all LLs could make it in. Teclis would make sense to have somewhere doing something in the Old World, as he's pretty concerned about humans and poo poo, pirates in the form of Dark Elfs and Vampire Coast (and especially Sartosa) would make sense to incude in some form, if you include a part of the Southlands Khemri would fit in fine, the Lizards could be squeezed in there as well (or in Albion), and the Skaven are all over the place and just as home in the Old World as in the new. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 28, 2019 |
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Apr 28, 2019 19:39
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Has anyone played a campaign where the downsides of relations/public order/upkeep from the sword of khaine were worth the upsides? I'm curious at what point in the campaign or what kind of lord/hero/faction you decide to get it on? Would be ideal on a horde faction or pirates I imagine.
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