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Gollum is also a hobbit and has special resistance. At least compared to men.
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Apr 23, 2019 03:20
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Gollum also didn’t knowingly take the ring from the hand of the Lord. It’s a symbolic act of envassalage to do so (think how often Germanic poetic language describes a great lord as “ring-giver” to his liegemen). It primed the Nine to submit to Sauron’s will. It’s stressed that how you first come into the power of a ring shapes how it affects you. Bilbo took so little hurt from it because he began his ownership accidentally and with pity in his heart. Sméagol began his ownership with a terrible crime, but one only motivated by his own petty immoderate desires. His relationship with the ring therefore always remains purely selfish and never brings him into more than temporary alignment with Sauron’s will.
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Apr 23, 2019 03:28
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skasion posted:It’s a symbolic act of envassalage to do so (think how often Germanic poetic language describes a great lord as “ring-giver” to his liegemen). Hmm! I didn't know that- it's a very Tolkien sort of a detail. How does this idea of will-enslaved Nazgul fit with the Witch-King's actions at the siege of Minas Tirith (breaking Gandalf's staff, etc)? Is it Sauron himself acting in some capacity there, or does Sauron take the will of his Nazgul while leaving their pride and general nastiness intact?
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Apr 23, 2019 08:59
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I would say (though that's purely conjecture on my part) that Sauron didn't take the Nazgûl's will so much as instead fencing it in, as it were. He didn't turn them into mindless automatons, but instead made it so that their strongest and possibly even only goal in (un-)life is to please their master, on which I would guess all their thinking is constantly focused. Outside of those bounds they are perfectly capable of making their own decisions and even devising their own strategies, maybe even having their own goals in mind - as long as they don't conflict with their master's will. Was it ever stated somewhere what happened to the Nazgûl during the first thousand years or so of the Third Age, between Sauron having been defeated by the Last Alliance and his reemergence at Dol Guldur?
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Apr 23, 2019 09:18
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quote:The family and estate of JRR Tolkien have fired a broadside against the forthcoming film starring Nicholas Hoult as a young version of the author, saying that they “do not endorse it or its content in any way”. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/23/tolkien-estate-disavows-forthcoming-film-starring-nicholas-hoult
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Apr 23, 2019 14:42
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skasion posted:Gollum also didn’t knowingly take the ring from the hand of the Lord. It’s a symbolic act of envassalage to do so (think how often Germanic poetic language describes a great lord as “ring-giver” to his liegemen). It primed the Nine to submit to Sauron’s will. It’s stressed that how you first come into the power of a ring shapes how it affects you. Bilbo took so little hurt from it because he began his ownership accidentally and with pity in his heart. Sméagol began his ownership with a terrible crime, but one only motivated by his own petty immoderate desires. His relationship with the ring therefore always remains purely selfish and never brings him into more than temporary alignment with Sauron’s will. Where did Tolkien write this?
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Apr 23, 2019 14:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/23/tolkien-estate-disavows-forthcoming-film-starring-nicholas-hoult Translation: we didn't make any money off of this and we therefore would like to tell you how angry that makes us.
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Apr 23, 2019 14:52
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Hogge Wild posted:Where did Tolkien write this? Which bit? quote:“Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants.” quote:“Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.” quote:“So you have been there?’ Frodo insisted. ‘And you’re being drawn back there, aren’t you?’
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Apr 23, 2019 15:20
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Mahoning posted:Translation: we didn't make any money off of this and we therefore would like to tell you how angry that makes us. It's a modern biopic so 80+% is probably completely made up and its using the Tolkien name to sell tickets to a re-purposed sappy melodrama.
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Apr 24, 2019 17:16
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Tree Bucket posted:Hmm! I didn't know that- it's a very Tolkien sort of a detail.
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Apr 24, 2019 22:48
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cheetah7071 posted:One thing that really struck me about my recent re-read is that nowhere in the text does it seem to say that Sauron gained anything from the ring other than the ability to dominate other rings and ringbearers. Elrond during the Council: quote:The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure. With a few quick text searches, this is the only suggestion I can find for the Ring being directly used as an object of power in a context other than dominating someone else's will, but it does suggest that there's more to the Ring than just that. Presumably Elrond doesn't have the inclination to comment any further on Sauron's interior design tastes. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 23:29
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Metaphorical foundations.
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Apr 24, 2019 23:38
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Ynglaur posted:The Witch-King did not break Gandalf's staff. The movie misinterpreted that entire scene, imo. Yeah I get why that did that for dramatic purposes but Gandalf the White is more powerful than all of the Nine, including the Witch King. At that point only Sauron is stronger than him. Honestly I'm not so sure Gandalf the Grey isn't stronger than the Nazgul too. Maybe not all of them together, but individually, certainly.
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Apr 25, 2019 01:32
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Pretty sure Gandalf the Grey would kick Nazgul rear end, too. In Fellowship at Rivendell Gandalf says basically "I should never have let Frodo travel alone, if I'd have been there he wouldn't have been stabbed." I assume that he would at least be able to drive away the Nazgul at Weathertop, if not outright defeat them.
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Apr 25, 2019 01:37
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DontMockMySmock posted:Pretty sure Gandalf the Grey would kick Nazgul rear end, too. In Fellowship at Rivendell Gandalf says basically "I should never have let Frodo travel alone, if I'd have been there he wouldn't have been stabbed." I assume that he would at least be able to drive away the Nazgul at Weathertop, if not outright defeat them. The Nazgul's main weapon is fear too which doesn't tend to work too well on the likes of Gandalf or some of the really ancient Elves. Like Glorfindel has no fear of them.
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Apr 25, 2019 01:48
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DontMockMySmock posted:Pretty sure Gandalf the Grey would kick Nazgul rear end, too. In Fellowship at Rivendell Gandalf says basically "I should never have let Frodo travel alone, if I'd have been there he wouldn't have been stabbed." I assume that he would at least be able to drive away the Nazgul at Weathertop, if not outright defeat them. He did. 4 of them . I think 4.
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Apr 25, 2019 01:49
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euphronius posted:He did. 4 of them . I think 4. I‘ve always been under the impression it was the whole bunch, though I can’t find a source to back myself up here. The Witchking is the only one I can imagine troubling Gandalf the Grey, being a proper sorcerer in his own right. But of course he is no threat to Gandalf the White, who is obviously totally unafraid of being nailed with his flaming sword and several times complains that he could have kicked Angmar’s rear end and saved Theoden if not for Denethor picking the wrong moment to go nuts.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:53
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euphronius posted:He did. 4 of them . I think 4. I just reread this Gandalf @ Council of Elrond posted:'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Syl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old. Looks like he fought off all nine.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:28
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ScottyJSno posted:I just reread this I think soemwhere it does say there were just four at Weathertop, but all nine were chasing him, just only four were present. Could be wrong.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:30
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Didn’t Tolkien do a big incredibly tedious inventory of all the Nazgul’s movements during Book I to make sure it all made sense and they weren’t just teleporting around? I’m sure there’s something like that somewhere in HoME or Unfinished Tales or something.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:33
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skasion posted:Didn’t Tolkien do a big incredibly tedious inventory of all the Nazgul’s movements during Book I to make sure it all made sense and they weren’t just teleporting around? I’m sure there’s something like that somewhere in HoME or Unfinished Tales or something. I remembered that too but when I went to look for it I couldn't find it. It at least doesn't seem to be in Unfinished Tales, where I expected it
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Apr 25, 2019 03:35
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cheetah7071 posted:I remembered that too but when I went to look for it I couldn't find it. It at least doesn't seem to be in Unfinished Tales, where I expected it Been doing some google-ing Some other nerds did all the work 10 years ago. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=15033 They concluded that 6 Nazgûl attacked Gandalf while the other 3 were east of Weathertop . The sources they used are Unfinished Tales, Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion, and History of Middle Earth 7.   ScottyJSno fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 05:28
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I think one of the Orcs says in TTT that Sauron is holding the Nazgul back and forbidding them from crossing the river or flying over the lands of men because he doesn't want to reveal them yet. But then he gets suspicious of Saruman and sends at least a few of them to go figure out what he is doing and that freaks Gandalf the gently caress out and causes him to go race towards Minas Tirith with Pippin. But after getting unhorsed at Rivendell it seems like they go back to Mordor and get re-horsed except this time with flying mounts but then they mostly sit tight for a while. Presumably the Witch King during most of the Two Towers is organizing/gathering the armies they'll eventually use to attack Minas Tirith.
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Apr 25, 2019 05:35
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Ginette Reno posted:
Once the riders are unhorsed Sauron knows that the Ring is in the care of the elves at Rivendell. The Nazgul do not have the same power in Rivendell as they would in Bree or Gondor so basically the only way Sauron can get the ring back from Rivendell is to attack it forcefully. At that point the planning is the same as he has to go through Gondor and Rohan first.
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Apr 25, 2019 23:16
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skasion posted:Which bit? Thanks, I didn't remember the text saying that the method of getting rings was meaningful to how they worked.
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Apr 26, 2019 09:39
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Once the riders are unhorsed Sauron knows that the Ring is in the care of the elves at Rivendell. The Nazgul do not have the same power in Rivendell as they would in Bree or Gondor so basically the only way Sauron can get the ring back from Rivendell is to attack it forcefully. At that point the planning is the same as he has to go through Gondor and Rohan first. Lothlorien, Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain/Dale as well, probably.
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Apr 26, 2019 10:27
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Once the riders are unhorsed Sauron knows that the Ring is in the care of the elves at Rivendell. The Nazgul do not have the same power in Rivendell as they would in Bree or Gondor so basically the only way Sauron can get the ring back from Rivendell is to attack it forcefully. At that point the planning is the same as he has to go through Gondor and Rohan first. Sauron must have confused as heck when no one claimed the ring at this point and wielded it.
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Apr 26, 2019 12:27
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euphronius posted:Sauron must have confused as heck when no one claimed the ring at this point and wielded it. confusion, followed by contempt, followed probably by whatever approximation of laughter he was capable of at that point
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Apr 26, 2019 12:52
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skasion posted:I‘ve always been under the impression it was the whole bunch, though I can’t find a source to back myself up here. The Witchking is the only one I can imagine troubling Gandalf the Grey, being a proper sorcerer in his own right. But of course he is no threat to Gandalf the White, who is obviously totally unafraid of being nailed with his flaming sword and several times complains that he could have kicked Angmar’s rear end and saved Theoden if not for Denethor picking the wrong moment to go nuts. See, here's the thing. I don't think the Witch-king had a flaming sword: I think Gandalf set it alight. He did the same thing to Aragorn's sword in Fangorn when first they meet. Remember, too, that Aragorn says that fire might harm the Black Riders. Further, the language Tolkien used was that the Witch-king fled. So, the gate comes down, Gandalf sits astride Shadowfax facing the Witch-king alone. They exchange words, he raises his sword, and then flames run down the blade, the horns blow, and the Lord of the Nazgûl flees. When next we see him he is wielding a mace. I think he went to strike Gandalf, and found that he could not, and so fled in fear. The movie, of course, has an almost opposite interpretation of the scene.
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Apr 26, 2019 13:12
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That’s an interesting read, but I don’t buy it. Anduril blazes ”stiff in his motionless hand” in response to a gesture of Gandalf’s staff. Gandalf is acting, Aragorn is passive. At the gate “he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade. Gandalf did not move.” Angmar is acting, Gandalf is passive. Also where do you see “fled”? I read “He left the gate and vanished.” He leaves because the darkness is breaking too soon and Gandalf commanded him to go back. skasion fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 13:25
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sassassin posted:It's a modern biopic so 80+% is probably completely made up and its using the Tolkien name to sell tickets to a re-purposed sappy melodrama. Its hilarious how Walk Hard has made all biopics redundant, even when about non-musicians. Scene: a stuffy man in tweed runs and grabs one of those old timey horn phones "Stanley, it's Georgie! . . . Your cousin, George Allen&Unwin  You know that new genre you've been looking for?? Well listen to this!"
Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 28, 2019 |
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Apr 28, 2019 17:31
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Blood Boils posted:Its hilarious how Walk Hard has made all biopics redundant, even when about non-musicians. "Tolkien has think about his entire life before he writes."
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Apr 28, 2019 18:38
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https://twitter.com/leepace/status/1122654652439367680 Kinda pisses me off that I can't see this, or rather that it isn't available online The art looks surprisingly influenced by William Blake's etchings
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Apr 29, 2019 01:20
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:https://twitter.com/leepace/status/1122654652439367680 Yeah, I really would have liked to see it. My wife got me this as a consolation prize birthday present, though: https://smile.amazon.com/Tolkien-Maker-Middle-earth-Catherine-McIlwaine/dp/1851244859
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Apr 29, 2019 05:02
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Yeah, the book has nearly everything from the exhibit, plus a lot more.
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Apr 29, 2019 11:13
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euphronius posted:Sauron must have confused as heck when no one claimed the ring at this point and wielded it. I figure Sauron probably was sweating anybody trying to claim it. That probably wouldn't be good for him even if it was Boromir or something.
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Apr 29, 2019 12:10
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Nessus posted:Didn't Gandalf say something to the effect of "the Enemy is watching for when we frag each other because he figures that is when someone is making a play for the Ring?" Or was that way later on. boromor shmoromir - it's samwise the strong he was afraid of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-piARxy4U
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Apr 29, 2019 12:16
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Nessus posted:Didn't Gandalf say something to the effect of "the Enemy is watching for when we frag each other because he figures that is when someone is making a play for the Ring?" Or was that way later on. That’s way later on I think, in the last debate, because Gandalf’s point is that unless they make an aggressive move on Mordor now, Sauron won’t attack again, he’ll just sit back and wait for civil war over the ring to break out.
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Apr 29, 2019 12:29
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skasion posted:That’s way later on I think, in the last debate, because Gandalf’s point is that unless they make an aggressive move on Mordor now, Sauron won’t attack again, he’ll just sit back and wait for civil war over the ring to break out. As I recall, the logic of the attack on the Black Gate was to convince Sauron the Ring Bearer (who he probably thought was Aragorn) had gotten cocky with power and moved too soon, so Sauron would have a chance to strike and take the Ring back. There wasn't really anything about Sauron sitting back and waiting for civil war if they didn't (though they noted Gondor et al were screwed in the long run if they stayed behind their walls) so much as trying to distract him when Frodo would need it most. Honestly I can't expect Sauron would do any kind of waiting while HIS Ring was on someone else's hand anyway, but if he was sufficiently baited enough he would strike earlier and not leave his people sitting around Mount Doom.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:13
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MadDogMike posted:As I recall, the logic of the attack on the Black Gate was to convince Sauron the Ring Bearer (who he probably thought was Aragorn) had gotten cocky with power and moved too soon, so Sauron would have a chance to strike and take the Ring back. There wasn't really anything about Sauron sitting back and waiting for civil war if they didn't (though they noted Gondor et al were screwed in the long run if they stayed behind their walls) so much as trying to distract him when Frodo would need it most. Honestly I can't expect Sauron would do any kind of waiting while HIS Ring was on someone else's hand anyway, but if he was sufficiently baited enough he would strike earlier and not leave his people sitting around Mount Doom.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:21
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