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Arivia posted:This was a bullshit change they made then. Early levels of Undermountain have never been empty of treasure, it's just the source that changes - you have plenty of cults, secret societies and so on with hidden caches down there. Just in the initial area around the Yawning Portal Entrance. My Party is already finding quite a bit of treasure after getting away from that area and down to level 2. To avoid having an overwhelming first floor, the designers decided to trim the dungeon level down to it's center region around the Yawning Portal Entrance, with various points leading off Map for expanding it. The rest of the maps have similar paths leading off map. 
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Apr 27, 2019 21:36
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MonsterEnvy posted:Magic Item's start becoming more common in Dungeon of the Mad Mage as you go down the floors. However next to no treasure is found at first cause other parties already cleared that stuff out. err no that's not true at all, the levels only have cleared out parts for flavor with the majority being 'fresh' areas, they just have consumbles and lovely ones until like level 5, and even then from then on you can go 2 floors with only 2 party members getting a noticeable upgrade. It's not like the floors are small either, it took mine who are well experienced like 4-5 sessions per floor.
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Apr 27, 2019 21:50
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The first few levels of DotMM do have a bunch of non-consumable uncommon magic items, that you should sell/trade for more useful stuff like +1 arms and armor. This is what the module expects from the party, given you're at notorious center of trade Waterdeep and there's two or three named NPCs that explicitly will either buy any magical trinkets you find straight out of your hands, or let you trade for others of equivalent rarity.BattleMaster posted:It's too bad 5E was so half-baked because I like a lot of the basic ideas it has, but the implementation was kind of Shadow of the Demon Lord
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Apr 27, 2019 23:52
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. If they gave all the classes and monsters a long, hard going over and tightened up the wording and elaborated on a bunch of the rules and released it as a 5.5E then it would be in the shape 5E should have shipped as.
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Proud Rat Mom posted:err no that's not true at all, the levels only have cleared out parts for flavor with the majority being 'fresh' areas, they just have consumbles and lovely ones until like level 5, and even then from then on you can go 2 floors with only 2 party members getting a noticeable upgrade. It's not like the floors are small either, it took mine who are well experienced like 4-5 sessions per floor. I don't disagree with any of this. It's only the chunks of the first level near the entrance that have been cleared out. What I said is true. Magic Stuff becomes much more common as you go on, and the first area has already been largely cleared out.
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Apr 28, 2019 04:54
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We rolled stats. I knew between that and playing a suboptimal race for the class I could end up with less than 3 on my main stat, and it happened. Lightfoot Halfling paladin, total after racials: 15 STR 10 DEX 14 CON 11 INT 13 WIS 16 CHA We're starting at level 1. I could reallocate and be dex-based but I think we have several good reasons to stick with STR: 1) Our group is really soft so going heavy armor matters more. I'll have to be taking a lot of hits. 2) We don't have anyone else who can really do Athletics skill checks. 3) We're doing a more forgiving version of encumbrance rules, but even under those, my starting gear puts me like 6 pounds below encumbered. So unless someone has some better idea of how to distribute stats, this is where I am. With that in mind, my options for level 4 are gonna be ASI: 1 STR, 1 WIS Squat Nimbleness (STR) Tavern Brawler (STR) There's a few other picks that don't seem good enough to bother considering. Any thoughts? Normally I never give Tavern Brawler a second look but rounding off STR and giving me something to do with a bonus action seems kind of legit? But it's really hard to argue with 5 feet of movement and athletics expertise.
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Apr 28, 2019 06:01
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Another reason I think you should stick with what you have is because it would be funny to play the Halfling strong man.
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Apr 28, 2019 06:06
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Why not dump WIS and put that 13 in dex?
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Apr 28, 2019 06:13
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Pussy Quipped posted:Why not dump WIS and put that 13 in dex? I feel like dex doesn't do a lot if I'm committing to being a heavy armor guy with str attacks. WIS is a good save and tied to a few good abilities
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Apr 28, 2019 06:21
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The only caveat for Squat Nimbleness is that a halfling paladin probably wants to sword-and-board, which means it's hard to have a free hand to grapple, if you care about sucker punching dudes and knocking them prone, or dragging them around like a rag doll. Apart from that, I can't think of any other good and relevant half-feats that fit your stat spread. There's junk like Heavy Armor Master, I guess, but that hardly seems worth it. Getting 5 extra feet of movement is also something you'll notice every round of combat, while getting a +1 to your Wisdom save is something that comes up once or twice a session, so that's another reason to consider Squat Nimbleness over a generic ASI. I guess if you really want to get value out of Athletics expertise, you can two-hand a longsword for damage and still have a spare hand to throw sucker punches.
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Apr 28, 2019 07:56
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Any thoughts? Normally I never give Tavern Brawler a second look but rounding off STR and giving me something to do with a bonus action seems kind of legit? But it's really hard to argue with 5 feet of movement and athletics expertise. I'd swap the 8 and 11 since INT is useless, but having better initiative and odds with DEX saves is not. Encumbrance sucks so I guess that's a reason to go STR main if these are the rules you're being forced to play with. Squat Nimbleness doesn't give you expertise on Athletics. Tavern Brawler is bad and, as previously mentioned, you need a free hand to actually grapple things. Just pick Heavy Armor Master.
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Apr 28, 2019 10:36
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If I’m an unarmed monk or whatever, would I get one attack or two normally? Ie, would it be an attack for each hand similar to duel wielding?
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Apr 28, 2019 15:10
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change my name posted:If I’m an unarmed monk or whatever, would I get one attack or two normally? Ie, would it be an attack for each hand similar to duel wielding? If you're Level 1 you can attack and then bonus action to make an unarmed attack kingcom fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Apr 28, 2019 |
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Apr 28, 2019 15:16
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Conspiratiorist posted:I'd swap the 8 and 11 since INT is useless, but having better initiative and odds with DEX saves is not. Encumbrance sucks so I guess that's a reason to go STR main if these are the rules you're being forced to play with. Someone had the wrong text on the online listing for Squat. Rude of them. Initiative is a real good point for swapping the stats and I'll do that. I don't see the free hand requirement being so bad for Tavern Brawler. If all I want is to grapple, I can sword hit, sheathe with free interaction, shield punch, bonus action grapple. Or I can sheathe first, shove attack, shield punch with advantage, grapple. I suppose I have three levels to see how our group fights to get a better sense of it that will be as helpful as it sounds. edit: Wait. I'm small. gently caress grappling. Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Apr 28, 2019 |
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Apr 28, 2019 16:18
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change my name posted:If I’m an unarmed monk or whatever, would I get one attack or two normally? Ie, would it be an attack for each hand similar to duel wielding? You can't dual wield your hands (they aren't weapons!). Unarmed attacks are a function of being a creature, and isn't at all tied to your arms - you could be a limbless torso and still be able to unarmed attack. And Monks through Martial Arts get the capability to, as a Bonus Action, make an Unarmed Attack after they've taken the Attack Action on their turn. This Attack Action could've been a weapon attack or another unarmed attack, it doesn't matter. The Bonus Action attack also gets its damage modifiers just fine - that thing with BA attacks not getting modifiers unless you have the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style is a function of dual wielding and not of Bonus Action attacks. For most monks, the optimal routine is 2-handing a spear or staff to get a 1d8 damage die for their Attack Action, then Bonus Action unarmed attack for their martial arts die.
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Apr 28, 2019 18:01
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Conspiratiorist posted:You can't dual wield your hands (they aren't weapons!). Okay, thanks! That’s exactly what I was wondering.
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Apr 28, 2019 19:22
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I'm still working my way through the thread as a whole, so my apologies if anyone has asked this yet, but do any of you have suggestions for making a Final Fantasy Red Mage type of character? It's always been one of my favorite archetypes, but hard to pull off well. Thematically, the character is a spellcaster of some sort that believed the way to break the boundaries between arcane and divine magic is to incorporate martial study as well. I am hoping to achieve the following (I realize these constraints may lead to a mechanically suboptimal build, but I've been playing with most members of my group for 20+ years and we tend to stand more on cool ideas than rules lawyering): * Ability to doublecast (necessitating metamagic) * Ability to heal (white magic), blast (black magic), and most especially buff/debuff (enfeeble/enhance) * Ability to wear at least some armor and a use a shield. Thematically, I'd prefer being able to use at least medium armor, even if optimally I'd likely go the finesse route. * Ability to hold his own in melee - looking to get an extra attack from somewhere at some point. The character would likely be a frontline gish most of the time, using things like shadow blade + SCAG cantrips, but with versatility to scrape people off the ground and contribute to AoE when needed. I've done some research and a common suggestion is Valor Bard, but it doesn't give me what I consider to be a core function of Red Mage - the doublecasting. Thankfully, my group tends to be flexible with bards and how they manifest, so he could just be a jack of all trades sort that doesn't do the music thing. This is probably the simplest choice that gets me close to what I want, but It just doesn't feel right. Divine Soul Sorc + Battlemaster Fighter gets me everything I want (plus the flashy fencer type maneuvers - parry, riposte and feint - for more Red Magey flair), but it's a bit wonky, especially when starting at level 1. Very limited spell selection. Would be shooting for a likely 15/5 split if we got that far, leveling Fighter and Sorc concurrently until hitting 5 in Fighter. A coffeelock Hexblade/Divine Soul could work, and gives me all the required stuff while making the character less MAD, but thematically the whole Shadowfell thing doesn't work well. Perhaps reskinning the pact holder while keeping the Hexblade chassis could work. Are there any other options/combinations I'm not thinking of? Bladesinger/Divine Soul?
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Apr 29, 2019 00:06
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Marathanes posted:I'm still working my way through the thread as a whole, so my apologies if anyone has asked this yet, but do any of you have suggestions for making a Final Fantasy Red Mage type of character? It's always been one of my favorite archetypes, but hard to pull off well. Paladin 2 then switch to Red Draconic Sorc the rest of the way. Divine Soul Sorc gives you access to Healing Word and the rest of the Cleric list, but Draconic is tougher (more HP, slight damage buff to Firebolt and Green-Flame Blade). Lay on Hands is a healing ability anyway. Your basic attack is Green-Flame Blade, sometimes Booming Blade since you can cheaply attack twice with it for 1 SP (Twinned Metamagic). Buffs available: Shield (reaction), Protection from Evil, Shield of Faith, Blur, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, most of which can be twinned. You can freely turn your plentiful spell slots into damage through Divine Smite. Sample progression: Variant Human STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA 16 8 15 8 8 16 1. Resilient (Constitution) 6. War Caster 10. STR+2 14. STR+2 Picks Defensive fighting style at Paladin 2 and all subsequent levels are Sorcerer. Twinned and Quickened Metamagic (Quickened is generally a very poor use of SP, but can be clutch in some situations. Subtle is a good alternative). Wears plate and goes sword & board, thus takes War Caster to cast Shield and other somatic spells without issue.
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Apr 29, 2019 00:23
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Marathanes posted:I'm still working my way through the thread as a whole, so my apologies if anyone has asked this yet, but do any of you have suggestions for making a Final Fantasy Red Mage type of character? It's always been one of my favorite archetypes, but hard to pull off well. I mean if you want frontline gish with doublecasting, go 2 levels of paladin then the rest sorceror. Youd get acces to scagtrips at level 3 and gain access to quicken spell which will let u cast as a bonus action. Note even with quicken spell u cant cast 2 non cantrip spells on the same turn so u could quicken a normal spell then cast a cantrip. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 29, 2019 00:23
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Good ideas to fit the character concept... but honestly, the double cast thing is a dumb hill to die on. It's a very specific mechanical ability from FF that's not at all necessary to have a Red Mage type of character. It'd be overpowered if it was allowed "for real", and it's kind of a crappy hack that seems way on the side of pedantic over flavorful. Tons more concepts can hit the support + blasting +swordguy notes without that specific build.
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Apr 29, 2019 00:33
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Can't you use fighter action surge for real doublecasting?
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Apr 29, 2019 00:35
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Thanks for the input. I should have said that I'd more or less written off Sorcadin. I understand that Sorcadin is probably the most mechanically optimal of the type of build I'm working on, but it does not fit thematically (and theme is more important to the concept). Paladin, especially the ties to a god and the oaths therein, doesn't really feel right, to me, in the Red Mage zeitgeist. Edit: Infinite Karma posted:Good ideas to fit the character concept... but honestly, the double cast thing is a dumb hill to die on. It's a very specific mechanical ability from FF that's not at all necessary to have a Red Mage type of character. It'd be overpowered if it was allowed "for real", and it's kind of a crappy hack that seems way on the side of pedantic over flavorful. I've considered that, honestly, and for some reason I can't get it out of my gourd that they have to be able to doublecast. The biggest stumbling block in the concept in my head is getting access to swordguy + blast + support + heal without involving a god (directly - I'm okay with a Divine Soul sort of thing ironically) or a pact - which is why Valor Bard may be the best overall choice at the end of the day. I guess I could just dip 2 levels of fighter and use Action Surge as a cheap doublecast option, or do Valor bard to 6, then take some sorc for metamagic (which would keep me at full caster slots while opening up some additional selection options if I did Divine Soul). Edit2: VV I suppose playing 1 & 2e probably colors my view of what paladins are, but that is true in the current version isn't it? I may reconsider a 2 level Paladin dip on that point. Marathanes fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 29, 2019 |
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Apr 29, 2019 00:40
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Marathanes posted:Paladin, especially the ties to a god and the oaths therein, doesn't really feel right, to me, in the Red Mage zeitgeist. Well, if you only take 2 levels as in the above build you're not taking an oath, and Paladins aren't inherently tied to a god any more so you don't have any sort of divine management, just power.
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Apr 29, 2019 00:46
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Since you also mentioned Extra Attack you can also go 6 Paladin and then just flavor your Oath as something more thematic because the world is your oyster and so is your character lore. I know Extra Attack is at 5 but at that point you may as well go the extra distance for Aura.
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Apr 29, 2019 01:24
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There's no distinction between arcane and divine magic anymore, either, other than clerics specifically cast by channeling their gods.
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Apr 29, 2019 01:50
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Oath of the Ancients is literally "Life is beautiful. Get in on that poo poo." Paladins haven't been tied to the fuddy duddy gods for like 2 versions by now.
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Apr 29, 2019 03:28
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Really you can take any combination of paladin, bard, sorcerer, or warlock and come out with a pretty decent character. I once made a Triton adventurer that put five in each class and he was still just fine to use since they all used CHA and he had tons of third level spells available.
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Apr 29, 2019 05:11
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5E hack for monsters: use the interesting abilities they were given in 4e Seriously try it. You don't have to like 4e for this to work.
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Apr 29, 2019 06:00
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Firstborn posted:5E hack for monsters: use the interesting abilities they were given in 4e Unironically this. I straight up look up any monster im interested in and grab their abilities across from 4e.
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Apr 29, 2019 06:09
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Red Mage is literally just bard. Getting stuck on double cast is weird because that largely just doesn't exist in D&D at all and never has, for obvious balance concerns. At a certain point you kinda have to accept that you aren't playing Final Fantasy and this isn't going to be a 1:1 thing. Also it's probably more Lore Bard then Valor Bard, just saying.
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Apr 29, 2019 12:49
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Thanks again for everyone that's tossed out suggestions. Yeah, it's become more of a thought exercise in 'how close can I get it to feeling right to me' than anything else at this point. Call me crazy, but I've never really gotten on board with the completely optimal action economy build process, and that's saying something, as I'm usually one of the more optimally designed characters in my group. Somehow we've always managed, I think through creative storytelling, adaptability, and the fact that whoever is DM'ing tends to bend rules in the name of everyone having fun. The red mage concept I have in my head is probably pulling from too many different places to be helpfully cohesive, which detrimentally affects a simple solution - if I'd stick with one implementation, it'd probably be easier, but so it goes. On one hand, I love the old FFI concept of basically being equal parts fighter, black and white mage, taking the core of each while getting none of the best of either. Dualcast first showed up in FFV, and has been spotty since, but is such a classic memory lodged in my consciousness. Otoh, pulling from FFXI results in something that's more caster heavy, focused on the sort of battlefield manipulation and buffs/debuffs. FFXIV is blasty, with some melee mixed with lighter armor. Trying to fit all the points I enumerated earlier, I don't really expect a character to be mechanically optimal. The doublecast is a probably dumb hill to die on, but in a way it's a core part of Sorc play, using a cantrip and a spell in a single round. For some reason the best feel to me is still the Divine Soul/Battlemaster, but people don't care for it because it's rather suboptimal, which I get. 2nd best is probably straight Valor Bard (perhaps another dumb hill to die on, but the classic idea of being relatively well armored with a shield resonates with me). If I wanted to throw concept out the window and just try to make an optimal build fit as best possible, sorcadin is likely the most mechanically optimal gish combo, and it does what I want mechanically. Again, thanks for the input from everyone. I realize I'm being picky, obstinate, and probably kind of a pain in the rear end. Was just looking for angles on the take that I perhaps hadn't considered, but it looks like I've examined most of the main contenders. Edit: In a new campaign I'm starting this coming Friday, I've made a high elf wizard. We're starting at level 1, and I had intended to use the UA Lore Master tradition to fit him to a sort of 2nd ed Chronomancer concept (He calls himself a Quantum Spacetime Mage) - have some flavorful backstory about how he lost the love of his life to a temporal accident where she was erased from history, and only he and his wizard master even remember she ever existed at all as they were semi-shielded from the rewriting of time. Lots of scientific technobabble predicating his spells and such, working with the Lore Master's ability to manipulate spells (so Fireball becomes a localized microsingularity/wormhole, doing force damage and requiring a strength save and such). Knowing that the Lore Master tradition was killed off for being overpowered, my main thought if I didn't want to use it for balance sake (even though the DM approved it), is diviner probably my best bet for a time mage type? Being a high elf also makes me want to ask if bladesinger is any good in practice. It may not fit thematically, but since Friday is session 1 (we already had session 0), some deeper modifications to my backstory are not out of the question at this point. Marathanes fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Apr 29, 2019 |
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Apr 29, 2019 16:44
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Red Mages are the jack-of-all-trades class (within the context of Final Fantasy combat, anyway) and that's what Bards are. Their spellbook by default has access to the four categories mentioned. Both Valor and Swords bard get medium armor and extra attack, but Valor gets the shield proficiency and Swords gets melee flourishes. That just leaves the double magic, but you can pick up Sorcerer levels later on for that. Double Cast was always their capstone skill anyway. In my opinion the most important part of Red Mages is the fancy hat and cape and that says "bard" all the way.
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Apr 29, 2019 16:53
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Celebrity Ghost posted:In my opinion the most important part of Red Mages is the fancy hat and cape and that says "bard" all the way. You're goddamned right. Why did I never see that.
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Apr 29, 2019 16:57
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Bardic Inspiration is almost definitely the best bonus action support ability, especially after it recharges on short rest. Being able to attack or cast, and still throw out support with your bonus action (hell, flavor it as magical battlefield manipulation or buffs instead of morale boosting) is a pretty powerful and flavorful thing. Swords/Valor Bards have better melee than other Bards, but obviously other subclasses have better casting, so you can easily tune which direction you want to focus in. With damage scaling melee cantrips, you don't need mechanical extra attacks to be mechanically competent with a sword. Hexblade is still the best gish base IMO, because they get to use Cha for everything, so they can cap Dex at 14 and use medium armor and shields, but single-class Bards do get better spells and have more utility at the cost of pure damage.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:02
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Is Subtle Spell actually worth choosing as a metamagic option? I like the idea of being able to cast spells even if you’re bound/silenced/locked up and restrained or whatever, especially flavor-wise, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone advocating for it.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:30
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change my name posted:Is Subtle Spell actually worth choosing as a metamagic option? I like the idea of being able to cast spells even if you’re bound/silenced/locked up and restrained or whatever, especially flavor-wise, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone advocating for it.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:45
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Subtle Suggestion is fun as hell. I feel like quickened is overrated.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:49
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Marathanes posted:Red mage stuff Thanks for opening this discussion, I'm a FF1 and FFXI red mage lifer and just started playing 5e a month ago and was wondering the exact same thing Along the same lines, is there a build that can be oriented around using Elemental Weapon or is that more of a situational/supplemental thing? I always dug the weapon enchantment spells red mages got in ffxi even though they were trash once people figured the game out.
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Apr 29, 2019 17:52
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Marathanes posted:The doublecast is a probably dumb hill to die on, but in a way it's a core part of Sorc play, using a cantrip and a spell in a single round. Quickened is only a core part of Sorlock play. 95% of the time it's a dubious expenditure of good SP on regular sorcerers. Infinite Karma posted:After Quickened, Subtle, and Twinned are probably the next best choices. Twinned buffs are good if you want to be generous, Subtle spells are good if you want to be selfish and avoid rare-ish status effects. With the fringe benefit of letting you cast spells in social situations undetected. And it's very cheap in sorcery points. Twinned *is* the Metamagic choice - the one mechanical reason to play Sorcerer. SP spent on Quickening is SP you aren't saving for Twinning Haste/Greater Invis/Polymorph or recovering spell slots, so when you use Quickened you better have a good reason for it. Plinking with an extra Fire Bolt or two is rarely a good reason. Circumstantially, there might be something clutch you could do with your action, though. While I think Quickened Spell makes for a solid third metamagic pick, Subtle (for uncounterable Counterspells and social casting) and Empowered (to fix bad Fireballs) have a stronger case going for them IRT taking them alongside Twinned at level 3.
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Apr 29, 2019 18:34
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Marathanes posted:Edit: In a new campaign I'm starting this coming Friday, I've made a high elf wizard. We're starting at level 1, and I had intended to use the UA Lore Master tradition to fit him to a sort of 2nd ed Chronomancer concept (He calls himself a Quantum Spacetime Mage) - have some flavorful backstory about how he lost the love of his life to a temporal accident where she was erased from history, and only he and his wizard master even remember she ever existed at all as they were semi-shielded from the rewriting of time. Lots of scientific technobabble predicating his spells and such, working with the Lore Master's ability to manipulate spells (so Fireball becomes a localized microsingularity/wormhole, doing force damage and requiring a strength save and such). Back in the final years of my D&D playing days, our group moved from traditional mage classes (generalist vs specialist) into themed ones around a certain concept. There were specific rules for chronomancers back in 2nd edition, but I had a fellow player who did basically that thing within the more traditional rules of a wizard. Keep in mind, though, that our group did a lot of individual spell creation, which sadly is a concept that seems to have died. To give you an idea of his abilities, his major spell list included most anything that allowed him to manipulate space time: divination spells like Clairvoyance where his vision was outside of his body, spells like Hold Person, Slow and Haste (naturally), spells that allowed him or allies to see attacks in advance and have bonuses to avoid attacks or make saving throws, teleportation, Time Stop as a capstone (obviously). Basically anything that directly manipulated movement or location was his, but often reflavoured. To give you another theme, my character was a mentalist, so all of my spells had to do with deceiving the senses or affecting and attacking the mind... illusions and phantasms (these were mechanically different in 2e), charm spells, suggestion, fear, emotion etc. We also had an abjurer who had a fair amount of overlap with the chronomancer in the divination area (forewarned is forearmed), but he didn't teleport and all of his spells dealt with, you guessed it, protection. We had a lot of fun with that concept.
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Apr 29, 2019 18:58
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change my name posted:Is Subtle Spell actually worth choosing as a metamagic option? I like the idea of being able to cast spells even if you’re bound/silenced/locked up and restrained or whatever, especially flavor-wise, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone advocating for it. I think whether subtle is worth it depends a whole lot on how much your DM actually follows RAW and RAI on casting spells non-subtly. If your DM takes the view that, say, the Verbal component of a spell like Suggestion is just the suggestion itself (i.e. it works like a Jedi Mind Trick), or that the Somantic component of a spell can be hidden via sleight of hand then subtle spell is less worth it.
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Apr 29, 2019 20:30
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