Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

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TheIncredulousHulk: Sep 3, 2012

Subverting audience expectations is great if it's executed properly but it's not as simple as just hitting a narrative payoff point and then just doing something pointless and unexpected and then going "LOL FOOLED YOU IDIOT." You have to actually lay the groundwork for the direction you want to go if it's going to be any good. The trick is not in pointing all the arrows in your story to the right but then swerving left at the last minute, it's in pointing all the arrows left but convincing the audience(or better yet, letting the audience convince themselves) that you're going to the right even though you never were

Like I actually dug the reveal that Rey's parents were loser nobodies(at least in the moment, since there's no followup at all afterward) because it's like there's really no reason to suspect she's actually Obi-Wan's granddaughter or whatever the gently caress other than the viewer's preexisting expectations about destiny in Star Wars. Her being abandoned by selfish shitheads actually makes a lot of sense in the context of what we're actually shown in both sequel trilogy movies

On the other hand something like the Holdo subplot is a poorly executed subversion because its goal is to pull a fast one on the audience by being like "hah turns out this character was actually really smart and in control the whole time, bet you feel bad for doubting her" but it's like no I don't, her plan's not actually that smart and all the reasons you gave me to doubt her were legitimate, and her actual behavior was not reflective of a smart leader but as a puppet whose sole motivation was to try to trick me

# ? Apr 29, 2019 17:20

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 09:08

a peck of pickled peckers: Aug 3, 2014; I am your Redeemer! It is by my hand that you arise from the ashes of this world!

I�ll admit: the first time I watched TLJ, I found myself really enjoying the bomber scene at the beginning because it reminded me of the whole �WWII in space� thing that I liked so much in the OT as a kid. Then later that day I was talking about that scene to someone and as I was describing it I gradually kind of faltered and realized �Wait...but it doesn�t make any GODDAMN SENSE. gently caress!�

# ? Apr 29, 2019 17:26

Power_of_the_glory: Feb 14, 2012

TheIncredulousHulk posted:

Subverting audience expectations is great if it's executed properly but it's not as simple as just hitting a narrative payoff point and then just doing something pointless and unexpected and then going "LOL FOOLED YOU IDIOT." You have to actually lay the groundwork for the direction you want to go if it's going to be any good. The trick is not in pointing all the arrows in your story to the right but then swerving left at the last minute, it's in pointing all the arrows left but convincing the audience(or better yet, letting the audience convince themselves) that you're going to the right even though you never were

Like I actually dug the reveal that Rey's parents were loser nobodies(at least in the moment, since there's no followup at all afterward) because it's like there's really no reason to suspect she's actually Obi-Wan's granddaughter or whatever the gently caress other than the viewer's preexisting expectations about destiny in Star Wars. Her being abandoned by selfish shitheads actually makes a lot of sense in the context of what we're actually shown in both sequel trilogy movies

On the other hand something like the Holdo subplot is a poorly executed subversion because its goal is to pull a fast one on the audience by being like "hah turns out this character was actually really smart and in control the whole time, bet you feel bad for doubting her" but it's like no I don't, her plan's not actually that smart and all the reasons you gave me to doubt her were legitimate, and her actual behavior was not reflective of a smart leader but as a puppet whose sole motivation was to try to trick me

What would of been interesting is if Holdo was leading the First Order into an ambush and we got a massive space battle at the end.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 17:34

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

a peck of pickled peckers posted:

I�ll admit: the first time I watched TLJ, I found myself really enjoying the bomber scene at the beginning because it reminded me of the whole �WWII in space� thing that I liked so much in the OT as a kid. Then later that day I was talking about that scene to someone and as I was describing it I gradually kind of faltered and realized �Wait...but it doesn�t make any GODDAMN SENSE. gently caress!�

It's because the pieces in play don't make sense translated to their WW2 counterparts. In that war, big payload bombers were used against general area targets like factory complexes or for general bombardment of cities. They had basically zero controlled accuracy and would saturation bomb the target area.They would never be used against warships in a naval engagement. Attacking ships was the job of much smaller dive bombers or torpedo bombers.

That's why X-Wings and Y-Wings look fine making attack runs on Star Destroyers but those Resistance bombers don't. You're basically looking at a bunch of B-17s making a run at a battleship and it just doesn't make sense.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 17:36

a peck of pickled peckers: Aug 3, 2014; I am your Redeemer! It is by my hand that you arise from the ashes of this world!

Chomp8645 posted:

It's because the pieces in play don't make sense translated to their WW2 counterparts. In that war, big payload bombers were used against general area targets like factory complexes or for general bombardment of cities. They had basically zero controlled accuracy and would saturation bomb the target area.They would never be used against warships in a naval engagement. Attacking ships was the job of much smaller dive bombers or torpedo bombers.

That's why X-Wings and Y-Wings look fine making attack runs on Star Destroyers but those Resistance bombers don't. You're basically looking at a bunch of B-17s making a run at a battleship and it just doesn't make sense.

Agreed. And loving...I don�t think those Resistance bombers would work against ground targets either, at least where any kind of AA stuff was in play, because they�re hilariously slow! Like I get that�at least sticking with the WWII parallel�bombers are slower than fighters. Fine. But the Resistance bombers are slow to the point of being impractical. Not to mention the fact that they have to fly low enough over their target that the final bomber that actually gets through also gets caught in the explosion it caused! Holy gently caress! Why even make that ship?? I�m getting angry all over again. Motherfuckers taking my WWII in space movies and turning them into poo poo.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 18:03

TheIncredulousHulk: Sep 3, 2012

I posted a huge dumb post about it in a previous version of this thread but the big reason those bombers seem so stupid is because the dramatic mechanics of the opening battle are turbofucked and lots of people focus on the implausibility of the bombers when they might have otherwise overlooked or forgiven it

# ? Apr 29, 2019 18:30

Vim Fuego: Jun 1, 2000; Ultra Carp

a peck of pickled peckers posted:

I’ll admit: the first time I watched TLJ, I found myself really enjoying the bomber scene at the beginning because it reminded me of the whole “WWII in space” thing that I liked so much in the OT as a kid. Then later that day I was talking about that scene to someone and as I was describing it I gradually kind of faltered and realized “Wait...but it doesn’t make any GODDAMN SENSE. gently caress!”

I also appreciated that the movie was playing off of wwii bombing runs, but I didn't enjoy the scene because 1. It was preceded by the "yo mama" joke and 2. The movie did not bother to introduce the bomber crew, meaning I did not have any emotional connection to them when they died, so the choice to shoot their death scenes so poignantly was overwrought and silly

Vim Fuego fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Apr 29, 2019

# ? Apr 29, 2019 18:46

Tythas: Oct 3, 2013; Never felt at home in reality
Always hiding behind avatars

Chomp8645 posted:

You're basically looking at a bunch of B-17s making a run at a battleship and it just doesn't make sense.

That is actually what happened in the Battle of Midway, except it was aircraft carriers they were trying to bomb

Wikipedia posted:

The Japanese aircraft carrier Hiryu maneuvers to avoid bombs dropped by USAAF Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress bombers during the Battle of Midway on 4 June 1942.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway

# ? Apr 29, 2019 18:47

RaySmuckles: Oct 14, 2009; Grimey Drawer

i know its petty and stupid but

i didn't like that one fighter just swooped around blasting apart all the laser towers on the ship. just made it all feel incredibly trivial

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:04

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

Tythas posted:

That is actually what happened in the Battle of Midway, except it was aircraft carriers they were trying to bomb

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway

Good lord, I just knew someone was going to bring up some pedantic bullshit like this eventually.

Look, "B-17s weren't for bombing ships" doesn't mean that it literally happened zero times in the biggest war in human history. B-17s couldn't even be deployed from carriers because they were way to big. The only reason they were involved here was because the proximity of the island air base to the battle, and they weren't effective anyway. They were stationed there to bomb Japanese islands but when you have the climactic battle of whole campaign going on next to your island you might as well commit all assets. The only direct mention of their attacks during the whole article you linked is this:

quote:

"Nine B-17s took off from Midway at 12:30 for the first air attack. Three hours later, they found Tanaka's transport group 570 nautical miles (660 miles; 1,060 kilometres) to the west.[59]

Under heavy anti-aircraft fire, they dropped their bombs. Although their crews reported hitting four ships,[59] none of the bombs actually hit anything and no significant damage was inflicted."

So yeah just because at some point, somewhere, somehow a few B-17s were involved in attacking ships in an unusual scenario doesn't change the fact that they don't belong.

Meme Poker Party fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Apr 29, 2019

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:08

a peck of pickled peckers: Aug 3, 2014; I am your Redeemer! It is by my hand that you arise from the ashes of this world!

TheIncredulousHulk posted:

I posted a huge dumb post about it in a previous version of this thread but the big reason those bombers seem so stupid is because the dramatic mechanics of the opening battle are turbofucked and lots of people focus on the implausibility of the bombers when they might have otherwise overlooked or forgiven it

Indeed. I�ll overlook a lot of stupid poo poo if it means I can really enjoy a good space battle scene, but TLJ couldn�t even give me that.

Vim Fuego posted:

I also appreciated that the movie was playing off of wwii bombing runs, but I didn't enjoy the scene because 1. It was preceded by the "yo mama" joke and 2. The movie did not bother to introduce the bomber crew, meaning I did not have any emotional connection to them when they died, so the choice to shoot their death scenes so poignantly was overwrought and silly

Specifically to your second point, it could�ve been quite compelling and different if the audience had some connection to the bombing crews. That could�ve been a pretty tragic and emotional scene, maybe even with themes of sacrifice or whatnot. Instead it�s hard to see it any other way than terribly comical, because a) as you said it comes right after a cringey yo momma joke, and b) I can�t help laughing when I think of the idiots that would just causally agree that flying their slow-as-poo poo bombers with minimal escort straight at the enemy ship is the best course of action.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:18

Tythas: Oct 3, 2013; Never felt at home in reality
Always hiding behind avatars

Chomp8645 posted:

Good lord, I just knew someone was going to bring up some pedantic bullshit like this eventually.

Look don't say they would never be used like that and get pissed when some shows you they were used exactly like that

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:20

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

I think the bombardier lady does a decent job with the scene. She�s pretty charismatic in a small role and she does a good job making you feel her struggle. It�s a pity almost everything else in it is working against her and everything else about her in the movie is really about her boring sister instead.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:22

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Automatic Slim posted:

My expectations were subverted in a good way on GoT last night. This thread was and TLJ was the first thing that crossed my mind afterwards.

gently caress yeah when Arya killed Daenerys that was insane holy poo poo, TLJ should have done something like that like Snoke is tormenting Rey and then he suddenly falls over dead and Finn steps out from behind a curtain holding a blaster pistol and is like "Gotcha!"

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:25

KillerJunglist: May 22, 2007; Lion of Judah protect you, Jah be praised.

https://vimeo.com/148990643

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:29

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Chomp8645 posted:

Good lord, I just knew someone was going to bring up some pedantic bullshit like this eventually.

Look, "B-17s weren't for bombing ships" doesn't mean that it literally happened zero times in the biggest war in human history. B-17s couldn't even be deployed from carriers because they were way to big. The only reason they were involved here was because the proximity of the island air base to the battle, and they weren't effective anyway. They were stationed there to bomb Japanese islands but when you have the climactic battle of whole campaign going on next to your island you might as well commit all assets. The only direct mention of their attacks during the whole article you linked is this:

So yeah just because at some point, somewhere, somehow a few B-17s were involved in attacking ships in an unusual scenario doesn't change the fact that they don't belong.

lol calm down it's fine to be wrong sometimes

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:30

RaySmuckles: Oct 14, 2009; Grimey Drawer

i like that the only way to deploy the bombs was one little remote

can't see any issues with that ever arising on the slow, bullet-magnet bombers

also i liked when she was laying on the railing above open space

do they put in forcefields on all the ships? you'd think if it were that easy you'd see it more

where did the bombers even come from? they just sorta showed up.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:31

TheIncredulousHulk: Sep 3, 2012

TheIncredulousHulk posted:

I posted a huge dumb post about it in a previous version of this thread but the big reason those bombers seem so stupid is because the dramatic mechanics of the opening battle are turbofucked and lots of people focus on the implausibility of the bombers when they might have otherwise overlooked or forgiven it

me, bigly, dumbly, gayly posted:

So just breaking down the opening scene since people have talked about elements of it a lot ITT:

We've got it opening with the rebels in the poo poo. Hux is half-shouting all kinds of violent declarations and the dreadnought flies in making monster noises and they talk about how dangerous it is. The audience is primed for some hairy poo poo to take place.

Poe rolls up with the dumb extended joke everyone hated, which immediately undermines any tension. Not just tonally and because it makes Hux look like a chump, but because it works at direct cross purposes with his immediate prior behavior and the audience's expectations. Dude is bellowing about vaporizing every last rebel but then he's just going to sit there and wait while a rinky-dink fighter hails them instead of, y'know, trying to vaporize him. The dramatic foundations of the scene are already getting shaky.

It gets worse as Poe's flying around the dreadnought shooting out the dreadnought cannons. Why is he doing it? The movie hasn't really told us yet. A really important thing for action scenes to work is that you need to establish some kind of broader understood objective for the characters within the scene, because without that, you can't create stakes or surprise the audience. He calls in "Tali"(sp) to start her approach, but we still don't really know what that means yet. Meanwhile you've got the dreadnought captain being prevented from scrambling his fighters early for unclear reasons. It's implied it's because Hux is a dipshit, but it makes the dreadnought seem even less threatening as a result because it's at the mercy of said dipshit. That said, the dreadnought captain at least has a clear dramatic objective in the scene(defend itself against whatever it is Poe is doing and then blow up the rebels) so it creates this really weird momentary effect where the FO(or this particular ship, at least) briefly hijacks the functional protagonist role within the scene.

Poe gets hit, and now almost 4 minutes into the scene he finally mentions the bombers and why clearing out the cannons matters. Getting hit would have been more dramatically effective if we'd known about the bombers before it happened, since we could make the connection as the laser hits him rather than functionally disconnecting the stakes from the moment of impact by delaying the explanation until afterward. That said, at least the movie has finally established what Poe's even trying to do here and what could go wrong, and BB8 trying to fix the engine is the first point where the scene starts to work like it's supposed to. We even get a glimpse of the dreadnought shooting its big guns and making a big explosion!

We then have a vaguely triumphal/conclusory beat where the last transport escapes featuring the lady with the little hair buns, and Leia's like okay good job, let's bounce. This is where things immediately go back to being muddled, because Poe's like "no we can do the plan, let's kill the dreadnought." We don't have the context to get anything out of this interaction beyond "Poe is disobeying." Was killing the dreadnought actually the original plan? If so, that means Leia is aborting it, which is not at all the implication of the previous shot, right? So did Poe come up with it in secret with all the other fighters and bombers? If so, what was Leia's actual plan? Just send one fighter to go bother the dreadnought and then leave? Because Poe doesn't meaningfully disrupt the operations of the big guns in any sense, he's nowhere near them. See what I mean when I say the dramatic grammar is all hosed up? It's not that we need exhaustive explanations of all this poo poo, but we need more than we've gotten.

So Poe blows up the last of the guns and the A-wing pilot explains the bombers need to be protected, which is okay by itself, but even though it was what I have been saying they should have done, it just highlights the fact that they don't actually do it at all. An X-wing guy gets blow up immediately and then the bombers are just all bursting into flames, and it happens so abruptly that there's no time to build a sense that the plan is going off the rails. This would have been pretty easy to fix without substantially altering the surrounding scene, by actually showing the fighters protecting the bombers initially but eventually being overwhelmed, maybe have a little shot of a TIE pilot locking onto one like in ANH before Poe or the A-wing pilot blows him up, something simple like that.

But yeah instead we barely see the fighters at all. I think the absence of them is a big reason why everyone complains about how stupid and lovely the bombers were. There's never even a second where it looks like the bombing plan is going to work like they intended it to, so you're just like why the gently caress did they even do this? These big stupid useless things, look at everything that doesn't make sense about their design.

Then Rose's sister is the last bomber alive, which again highlights the dumbness of the bombers because it's just chilling in the middle of the screen while the fighters ignore it, clashing directly with every other bomber getting torched. I suspect this is the point where most of the people who hated the scene checked out for good, because there's absolutely no continuity of expectation here. I'll give it credit for at least establishing that she has to push the big red button to drop the bombs ahead of time, although it's not terribly clear before it happens that only the one guy has one and not the gunner, so the viewer is pushed back into "I wonder what's going on here"-mode instead of "oh poo poo she needs to haul rear end up the ladder and hit the button"-mode. But yeah she drops the bombs and it feels kind of cheesy because you spend too much time in the former mode rather than the latter and you have the close-up of her clutching a necklace that doesn't really mean anything to us, but it's mostly functional since you know by the end of it what she's trying to do and what will happen if she fails to do it.

I'll also note here that the dreadnought captain getting blown up with a frustrated/resigned look on his face ends up having more weight than anything else in the scene, because he's really the only character where the dramatic mechanics aren't botched in some way.

So yeah that's just the opening scene, but the same style of weird gently caress-ups persist throughout the movie and many parts of it don't work like they're supposed to as a result of insufficient legwork and elements that undermine each other. It's hard to know how much of this was in the script and how much of it was lost in editing, like I know there was supposed to be like an hour of Luke/Rey/Kylo footage that got cut to make room for the casino planet bullshit and I suspect it might have fixed the biggest flaws with that part of the movie(which I'm not going to discuss in this post because I've already spent way too much of my afternoon typing this poo poo) Hopefully you have a clearer understanding of what I meant now.

Bolded the topical part

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:33

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

I think every Star Wars scene inside of a large ship hangar features a big opening out into space where there's presumably a force field

they probably use the same technologies to make their cars float and poo poo but for some reason no one is walking around with high-jump boots

Luke Skywalker should have been jumping around Tattooine like a god drat mario brothers in his force field boots

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:34

Big Beef City: Aug 15, 2013

Chomp8645 posted:

Good lord, I just knew someone was going to bring up some pedantic bullshit like this eventually.

Look, "B-17s weren't for bombing ships" doesn't mean that it literally happened zero times in the biggest war in human history. B-17s couldn't even be deployed from carriers because they were way to big. The only reason they were involved here was because the proximity of the island air base to the battle, and they weren't effective anyway. They were stationed there to bomb Japanese islands but when you have the climactic battle of whole campaign going on next to your island you might as well commit all assets. The only direct mention of their attacks during the whole article you linked is this:

So yeah just because at some point, somewhere, somehow a few B-17s were involved in attacking ships in an unusual scenario doesn't change the fact that they don't belong.

They redirected the fleet at the last minute for this 'climactic battle of the campaign' and 'committed all assets'.

A good portion of the attack was directed to support ground forces, where the bombers would probably have been useful, I assume?
Since they couldn't get there because of the shield, using them to bomb the capital ships wouldn't have been that bad since "they were there", "might as well", and "it was a climactic battle", as you mention. So...?

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:37

a peck of pickled peckers: Aug 3, 2014; I am your Redeemer! It is by my hand that you arise from the ashes of this world!

TheIncredulousHulk posted:

Bolded the topical part

Thank you for this

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:42

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

Big Beef City posted:

They redirected the fleet at the last minute for this 'climactic battle of the campaign' and 'committed all assets'.

A good portion of the attack was directed to support ground forces, where the bombers would probably have been useful, I assume?
Since they couldn't get there because of the shield, using them to bomb the capital ships wouldn't have been that bad since "they were there", "might as well", and "it was a climactic battle", as you mention. So...?

Are you talking about the same battle? What shield? What ground forces? And it wasn't a decisive battle, their objective was literally to run their fleet away as fast as possible.

What in the world are you referring to?

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:44

Big Beef City: Aug 15, 2013

Chomp8645 posted:

Are you talking about the same battle? What shield? What ground forces? And it wasn't a decisive battle, their objective was literally to run their fleet away as fast as possible.

What in the world are you referring to?

The battle in Rogue One, because I'm a moron and not even on the same page as you distinguished Star Wars scholars.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:48

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

Yeah nothing like those bombers appeared in Rogue One. Probably because that movie is good instead of bad.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:49

Just Chamber: Feb 10, 2014; WE MUST RETURN TO THE DANCE! THE NIGHT IS OURS!

a peck of pickled peckers posted:

I�ll admit: the first time I watched TLJ, I found myself really enjoying the bomber scene at the beginning because it reminded me of the whole �WWII in space� thing that I liked so much in the OT as a kid. Then later that day I was talking about that scene to someone and as I was describing it I gradually kind of faltered and realized �Wait...but it doesn�t make any GODDAMN SENSE. gently caress!�

I watched it on release day was super excited and had no idea what to expect so I didnt come in with the intention of making GBS threads all over the film, but the second that your momma joke came out of Poe's mouth i remember thinking "oh no". The film was doomed from that point on.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 19:50

BeanpolePeckerwood: May 4, 2004; I MAY LOOK LIKE SHIT BUT IM ALSO DUMB AS FUCK

a peck of pickled peckers posted:

Agreed. And loving...I don�t think those Resistance bombers would work against ground targets either, at least where any kind of AA stuff was in play, because they�re hilariously slow! Like I get that�at least sticking with the WWII parallel�bombers are slower than fighters. Fine. But the Resistance bombers are slow to the point of being impractical. Not to mention the fact that they have to fly low enough over their target that the final bomber that actually gets through also gets caught in the explosion it caused! Holy gently caress! Why even make that ship?? I�m getting angry all over again. Motherfuckers taking my WWII in space movies and turning them into poo poo.

But it's a Dreadnought, those things are fleet-killers...

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:13

BeanpolePeckerwood: May 4, 2004; I MAY LOOK LIKE SHIT BUT IM ALSO DUMB AS FUCK

Chomp8645 posted:

My personal "subverted expectations in a good way" nomination: Bloodborne.

10/10 post. GOAT post. POTY post.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:14

RaySmuckles: Oct 14, 2009; Grimey Drawer

QuarkJets posted:

I think every Star Wars scene inside of a large ship hangar features a big opening out into space where there's presumably a force field

yeah, but they're only ever shown in that context: massive landing bay sized ports on humongous ships

if they can be door sized why are there any doors?

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:14

FBIASSMAN69: Aug 15, 2006

RaySmuckles posted:

yeah, but they're only ever shown in that context: massive landing bay sized ports on humongous ships

if they can be door sized why are there any doors?

sometimes you gotta factor cost into the equation and it makes sense to skimp,

like they did on vader's suit for some reason i dunno

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:16

RaySmuckles: Oct 14, 2009; Grimey Drawer

FBIASSMAN69 posted:

sometimes you gotta factor cost into the equation and it makes sense to skimp,

like they did on vader's suit for some reason i dunno

but then why are they on the "no way these things can ever survive" bombers?

i know i'm being pedantic and stupid

but my point is that they came up with the shot first and then bent the movie around it, as they did with many other ideas in the film, like when rey if fighting the dude with two knives and he bests her and grabs her and then oops! where'd that other knife go? extrapolate this out to plot points, themes, and other concepts.

they freed the horse things! wait, can they even survive on this planet? if they're so valuable won't the casino people just round them back up in the days and weeks ahead? they've got like spaceships and poo poo, surely it can't be that hard to catch space horses. ah, but you see, "it was worth it to smash up that casino" or some poo poo

RaySmuckles fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Apr 29, 2019

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:21

FBIASSMAN69: Aug 15, 2006

i mean it is pretty remarkable, like i went to see the movie high off my gourd and found it perfectly enjoyable, but that was likely because while doing so i had zero short-term memory (so things like the yo mamma joke were immediately forgotten) and anyway i wasn't capable of critical analysis.

after a later rewatch though I find the film incredible in that, almost without exception, whenever you take a second to actually look at what is going on at any given time and how it relates to anything going on in the immediate scene or those around it just... falls apart. like so horribly and incompetently to the point where it feels like it has to be deliberate.

i was going to write more but goddamn it im so tired of all these star wars

edit: actually one last thing, what the hell was up with benicio del toro's character? was he the real slicer or just another who happened to match the incredibly vague description they were given? i tried to look it up but gave up when i got mad that apparently his name is "DJ" and that stands for "don't join"

FBIASSMAN69 fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Apr 29, 2019

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:33

Big Beef City: Aug 15, 2013

they should have made vaders suit out of those shields so he'd be kinda glowy around the edges like a force ghost all the time but his burnt guts and old man head would be all smushed up against it like a fat kid against a pane glass window.
that would be pretty intimidating imo

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:46

a peck of pickled peckers: Aug 3, 2014; I am your Redeemer! It is by my hand that you arise from the ashes of this world!

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

But it's a Dreadnought, those things are fleet-killers...

But the First Order already destroyed the Republic Fleet in TFA! Does the Resistance�s 3-4 ships count as a fleet? How many other fleets out there need killing??

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:47

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Whether or not some strategic bombers were used on capital ships in WW2 is kind of irrelevant because strategic bombers bomb from an altitude that is much higher than surface AA can reach.

If they were flying in a straight line slightly above a battleship but still basically right in its gun sights they'd get shredded to gently caress, too. An Iowa class Battleship had like 130 AA guns on it.

The whole thing about those AA guns is that they are slow and ponderous and it is difficult to hit a target flitting about. A big bomber right in your sights would die about as quick as the ones in TLJ. But no one would ever do that because that'd be moronic. Because you fly them above the effective range of the AA fire where only other specialized fighter planes can reach you and then you have machine guns mounted on the bomber for that reason.

The Japanese aircraft carriers in particular sucked rear end at AA because their guns were just too slow and the targeting was done pretty much entirely by eyeball so they just couldn't really hit the US planes that well but even in those you notice the bombers aren't just chilling right next to the capital ships eating gunfire. That photo is from a long way up.

e: But again, it is because all sides are just incompetents and that's the only way the plot moves forward. Why didn't the FO just shoot the rebel ship instead of continuously shooting the rebel base on the ground that wasn't going anywhere and was likely mostly empty at that point anyway? It's right goddamn there. Because then there would have been no chase and no movie.

ee: Strategic bombers aren't exactly as fragile as all that either. In addition to flying higher than most other planes could reach them, they usually had pretty decent armor and 2-3 turrets to light up any fighters that got near. There's a reason the US ones were called flying fortresses.

The slow moving bombers in TLJ maybe would make more sense if they sacrifice speed for a heavy shield generator that could shrug off turbolasers and drop tons of bombs from orbit but they're kind of flimsy as poo poo too lol

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 29, 2019

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:48

BeanpolePeckerwood: May 4, 2004; I MAY LOOK LIKE SHIT BUT IM ALSO DUMB AS FUCK

a peck of pickled peckers posted:

But the First Order already destroy*_{ed the Republic Fleet in TFA! Does the Resistance�s 3-4 ships count as a fleet? How many other fleets out there need killing??}

*switched off comms mid-post

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:51

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

a peck of pickled peckers posted:

But the First Order already destroyed the Republic Fleet in TFA! Does the Resistance�s 3-4 ships count as a fleet? How many other fleets out there need killing??

Gotta be ready in case the Horse Subjugation Fleet from Casino Planet starts looking for trouble outside their zone.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:52

Big Beef City: Aug 15, 2013

Chomp8645 posted:

Gotta be ready in case the Horse Subjugation Fleet from Casino Planet starts looking for trouble outside their zone.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:57

a peck of pickled peckers: Aug 3, 2014; I am your Redeemer! It is by my hand that you arise from the ashes of this world!

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

*switched off comms mid-post

Consider my expectations subverted.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:57

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Also re the whole "it's not gravity it is a mag rail or whatever" thing about the bombers:

fine so they should have turn 90 degrees up and "dropped" the bombs then instead of flying forward such that the target was between them and the planet while getting shot at the whole time. You're in space, idiots.

# ? Apr 29, 2019 21:59

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 09:08

Damo: Nov 8, 2002; The second-generation Pontiac Sunbird, introduced by the automaker for the 1982 model year as the J2000, was built to be an inexpensive and fuel-efficient front-wheel-drive commuter car capable of seating five.; Offensive Clock

Chomp8645 posted:

Good lord, I just knew someone was going to bring up some pedantic bullshit like this eventually.

i too knew that in the 10,000th page of star war discussion on gbs alone in recent years that there will be people talking about dumb poo poo

# ? Apr 29, 2019 23:26

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

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