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Jack also had a huge box of emaciated ukrainian miniatures buried in his backyard, so don't be too much like him.
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Apr 29, 2019 20:21
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Jack also had a huge box of emaciated ukrainian miniatures buried in his backyard, so don't be too much like him. And they're buried next to the Polish officer corps. Were the Soviets guilt free paragons? Of course not. But I prefer them over Nazis.
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Apr 29, 2019 20:30
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Yeah totally, you kinda just presented it as if they were at totally different ends of the spectrum, rather than separated by a few shades of grey.
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Apr 29, 2019 20:46
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Fascists in Trad Gaming: actually, the Nazis and the Soviet Union were basically the same thing
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Apr 29, 2019 21:59
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Dr Hemulen posted:Yeah totally, you kinda just presented it as if they were at totally different ends of the spectrum, rather than separated by a few shades of grey. Tell you what, I'll save us all some time. Gulags! The Holodomor! The Purges! Stalin's Terror! I know about these things and I'll still call the Nazis worse.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:05
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Dr Hemulen posted:Yeah totally, you kinda just presented it as if they were at totally different ends of the spectrum, rather than separated by a few shades of grey. The soviets were a gigantic amoral, conquering empire. Like the British. And Americans. Fascists in Trad gaming be like: “But what if we need fascism to combat the Bolsheviks?”
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Apr 29, 2019 22:09
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drat, a stunning reversal of the usual "what about the deaths attributed to communism???" Fash rallying cry slipped in as "Holodomor  "
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Apr 29, 2019 22:12
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I think human beings have inalienable basic human rights and deserve dignity.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:33
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Cessna posted:Tell you what, I'll save us all some time. I was unironically agreeing with you.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:35
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Something that gets lost in a lot of bodycount discussions is that every death in WWII can be attributed to the Nazis for starting WWII. Like, they talk about how Dresden was horrible? It was! I guess we can agree that Hitler shouldn't have started a loving war.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:47
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I really like the idea behind this thread and it would be awesome if it could not get closed.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:05
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A goon getting defensive of the fascist narrative of The Division 2 actually did trot Holodomor out, out of the blue, as a counter to me saying the game's story and subtext is horrible. It's amazing how, as has been noted, these people cannot stop outing themselves. If you know their shibboleths it's incredibly easy.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:27
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moths posted:Something that gets lost in a lot of bodycount discussions is that every death in WWII can be attributed to the Nazis for starting WWII. Are you arguing that felony murder should be applied to nations?
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Apr 29, 2019 23:46
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NovemberMike posted:Are you arguing that felony murder should be applied to nations? i mean
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Apr 29, 2019 23:52
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Can you guys go back to telling me which wargaming youtubers are evil please
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Apr 29, 2019 23:54
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StrixNebulosa posted:Can you guys go back to telling me which wargaming youtubers are evil please
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Apr 30, 2019 00:55
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Reene posted:I really like the idea behind this thread and it would be awesome if it could not get closed. StrixNebulosa posted:Can you guys go back to telling me which wargaming youtubers are evil please
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Apr 30, 2019 01:00
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(based on reading the first page) What you are telling me a game in which the good guys can be easily described as "Catholic space Nazis" attracts the fash like flies to poo poo? *Insert surprised Pikachu meme*
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Apr 30, 2019 01:19
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Cessna posted:I did a little research and found out that the first generation of stars-and-bars confederate battle flags were poorly dyed, so they faded to pink: I'd rather not use the color pink as an insult. Liquid Communism posted:If you're going to paint Confederates, just paint them with white flags. This is correct. Deified Data posted:Guilty of nothing we Americans or Brits haven't been guilty of to varying degrees at different points in our modern history. This. You literally cannot play any historical game without playing the bad guys. They're all bad. Corrode posted:They killed shitloads of Nazis so they're good in my book Death to the fascist pigs, comrade. 
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Apr 30, 2019 01:42
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Paint Confederates in safety orange and hazard stripes. Paint WWII Germans as Cobra or the bad guys from Metal Slug.
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Apr 30, 2019 01:46
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Two Beans posted:Paint Confederates in safety orange and hazard stripes. Paint WWII Germans as Cobra or the bad guys from Metal Slug. i, for one, would be much more interested in the historicals if it were the Allied Forces vs the Mars People
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Apr 30, 2019 01:57
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I started writing this last night after Drone's excellent post that's now in the OP, and I was considering not posting it because of what's happened since but gently caress it I'm gonna because it's important. It wasn't intended to be any sort of comment about SA moderation. You ever wonder how the shop, club, or whatever with the nazi rep got that rep? Sometimes it's because the organisers are actual fash, but sometimes it's because they've seen "call out and shun" work externally (ie, hurts another business when they are called out), but don't realise that it does not work internally. Not ever. It doesn't work on violent assholes, destructive drunks, nonstop creepers, vocal racists, drug addled idiots, or actual fascists. It doesn't work at junior sports, knitting circles, dojos, boat clubs, reenactment groups, libraries, pubs, or game clubs. I'm gonna specifically talk about fascists in nerd spaces though. "Call out and shun" doesn't work because you have to keep it up. Every new person and every external observer has to have it explained to them, and it's impossible to sound sincere while you do it when you have the power to remove the fascist from your space. When you go "Yeah, that's White Power Pete*, I could ban him from the premises, but..." that's all the new guy hears, because when you start to explain the reasons that the totenkopf guy with the tattoo that's uh, um, about the battle of sauchieburn, ok, is somehow still allowed back, the new guy has already stopped listening and is eyeing the exit. In a big enough group, it's not just "the new guy", either, you have to do it whenever someone becomes The Guy Who Just Started Paying Attention and loudly wonders what all the fuss is about anyway and starts asking why we can't all just get along without this being all political. It doesn't work because you, the person who has the power to remove someone, are instead "shunning" them (ie, you're ignoring it). Every time the guy sieg heils, "jokes" about "eliminating the juice", or talks about lesser races, at least one other person considers not coming back, while the fash knows that they're tolerated. Not liked. Not supported. Not agreed with. But not thrown out. When fascists are tolerated they bring their fascist friends, and they are emboldened. You want to engage in a reasoned discussion about acceptable behaviour? Sure, that'll work when it's 15 regular people and White Power Pete. But when Pete's brought three of his friends (Great! New members!) and a few of the other regulars have drifted away**, a third of the group consists of actual fascists doing the "but what if the real fascists are the ones who ban people just for their political beliefs" dance and nothing will change. That's how they work. That's how it always happens, whether it's war games or punk rock. The way to stop it from happening is to nip it in the bud. You tell the fash to gently caress off. Not "please think about not doing that again" or "finish your game and then we'll talk about this", but "pack your poo poo up and get out". And if they don't get out, you loving bounce them. And when the inevitable hand wringing starts, you tell those people that fascists aren't tolerated, and that "pack your poo poo up and get out" is the politest response they will ever receive here, and that apologists and sympathisers can gently caress off too. And you know, you're at least a bit of a history fan, aren't you? You can separate a joke about ww2 germany from a not-a-joke about how great nazis are. You can separate someone doing a Dr. Strangelove or Tom Lehrer bit from someone fake-ironically sieg heiling. You know that if you go up to the guy who's a bit too into it and say "yo we don't do that here, ok?" that a regular person will go "poo poo, sorry" and not push back on it. It's not like you can't tell, because they always, always tell on themselves. In summary, "Call out and shun" works really well when it's directed at a group that you're not a part of, to inform others that they're fascists. It doesn't work to fix your own internal poo poo, and it definitely doesn't work if you're the one in charge of the group that's having the fash problem. *He works in a laundry, get it? Don't be hysterical, it's just a joke! **Totally unrelated to the occasional accidental roman salute, forgot this wasn't reenactment, won't happen again or the multiplying swastikas, but hey no big deal, historical accuracy is important to Pete's friends Desert Fox Dan and SS Steve. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 01:59
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:That's how they work. That's how it always happens, whether it's war games or punk rock. The way to stop it from happening is to nip it in the bud. You tell the fash to gently caress off. Best post in the thread. Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MkRuV0aCcI
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Apr 30, 2019 02:46
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Yeah, there's a reason it's not "Nazi punks, just ignore them", "This machine convinces fascists to tone it down a bit", or "The only good fascist is a very polite fascist".
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Apr 30, 2019 02:58
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That post also goes for sexism / transphobia / homophobia in nerd spaces. A decent person goes "oh okay, sorry to make you uncomfortable" and knocks it off. Jerks love to lord their power over you, complete with "am I triggering you" "jokes".
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Apr 30, 2019 03:00
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Zuul the Cat posted:I'd rather not use the color pink as an insult. You know, that's entirely fair. I withdraw my suggestion.
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Apr 30, 2019 03:04
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This is a great post. From my POV, this goes even further. My wife's job brought us to a new town, and I've slowly established a new gaming circle. Infinity, 40k, 30k, mostly, but a friend visited this weekend, and we went out for the magic prerelease. The first sound I heard when I walked in the door was a guy loudly spoiling the Avengers as part of a screed on how Marvel and WotC are catering to SJWs, Marvel is gonna kill all the powerful male heroes so women and ((they)) are on top, etc. We called him out, and he quietly moved to a table to continue with some other rear end in a top hat who agreed with him, but I had a few thoughts when I walked in:
I was 90% sure I'd either get booted before the event started for telling him to gently caress off with his poo poo, or he'd ignore it and I'd leave so I wouldn't have to spend 6 hours listening to that. Not strictly fasc (he probably is one anyway, in Central MI where people fly the Confederate flag), but this kills the hobby. Zero tolerance for intolerant people
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Apr 30, 2019 03:10
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StrixNebulosa posted:That post also goes for sexism / transphobia / homophobia in nerd spaces. A decent person goes "oh okay, sorry to make you uncomfortable" and knocks it off. Jerks love to lord their power over you, complete with "am I triggering you" "jokes". Ah yeah, I thought I was being clear about that. The basic concept broadly applies. People who engage in socially unacceptable behavior gravitate towards spaces where that behavior is tolerated which pushes out people who don't tolerate it but are too polite, scared, or powerless to do anything about it, slowly (and then suddenly) converting the space into one that's all about that specific behavior. e: Can't stress that last bit enough. It'll happen slowly and then suddenly. It won't look like a big problem and then they'll be a majority of people who care enough to say anything, at which point the space is permafucked. evol262 posted:[*] Most of all, he was standing in front of the counter while the staff tried not to look in his direction. Yeah, that's what I mean. They know they should bounce him, but they won't even look at him. Their reasons are probably rational, internally consistent, etc, and also 100% irrelevant to you, the new person. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 03:10
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drat good post. I'm real grateful for the discussion and spirit of this thread. This is an awesome community. Especially this part: Elector_Nerdlingen posted:In summary, "Call out and shun" works really well when it's directed at a group that you're not a part of, to inform others that they're fascists. It doesn't work to fix your own internal poo poo, and it definitely doesn't work if you're the one in charge of the group that's having the fash problem. Because lol: 
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Apr 30, 2019 03:36
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:Because lol: oof
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Apr 30, 2019 03:40
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 a sixer
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Apr 30, 2019 03:48
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Closed the thread too, not impressed with the mod response to this at all. From the start it was clear to me the issue wasn't being taken seriously.
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Apr 30, 2019 04:06
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Cessna posted:You know, that's entirely fair. What about using regimental flags? There are plenty that don't use the stars and bars, look far more interesting and are historic enough.
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Apr 30, 2019 04:07
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richyp posted:There's that guy who got punched for being a Nazi at some convention last year, his whole twitter feed is full of massive right-wing rants and bitching about being punched for being a nazi. I think he used to be big in the MtG community before he got banned for being a fascist prick. Oh I got this! The Quartering aka Jeremy Hambly aka Hamhocks. He was "big" in that he had enough views to get a preview card every set but he wasn't one of the ones you heard most of the community talking about, probably because he was a fash who harassed other personalities that were and are far more beloved than that dipshit. Wotc punished him more than once, I know he lost his preview card at one point. One of the people he harassed, after that, was cosplayer Christina Sprankle, who did a lot of work with wotc appearing at cons and big events and poo poo. She was pretty well known, pretty popular, a nice Get for wotc She was harassed so bad she quit doing magic related things entirely, including playing the game in any capacity Wotc immediately responded by banning him for life from DCI, their organized play system. Any store who let's him circumvent a ban risks losing their sanction, meaning no more events, no more promos, probably going to have a hard time getting product at all if wotc talks to alliance/acd/gts. They also banned him from the online game, which is funnier because he couldn't sell off his digital cards first so he lost money on it He's since pivoted to trying to get in on that sweet alt right grift. It's not going too well, if the whole banned from gencon, assault suit thing is any indication
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Apr 30, 2019 04:07
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Mors Rattus posted:oh right i remember that one blowing up for a few days, did they just get banned from organized play/mtg event stuff, or can they not buy magic cards directly now? WotC doesn't sell product anymore, it's all through distributors That said, he's probably blacklisted like when PP told distributors to stop selling to the team covenant guys for a while, wotc has tried incredibly hard to be the woke nerd game the last few years and does not gently caress around with this poo poo
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Apr 30, 2019 04:24
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Warning: Get ready for image links and a lot of words. So. Beer4TheBeerGod. Back in the Fascism in Trad Games thread before you gave me a probation you said: Beer4TheBeerGod posted:That's a fair concern regarding QQCS. Discuss your problems here. In response to: BIG MEATY SHITS posted:I'm not taking this to QQCS because I believe you should be able to account for yourself here. Besides, I'll just get dogpiled by FYADs because that's what happens in QQCS and you know it. Except when I clicked on the link to that thread, I didn’t find a place to discuss the problems people had with your moderation at all. I certainly didn’t find a thread in which you acknowledged any “fair concerns”. I found this: Beer4TheBeerGod posted:This thread is to discuss how I'm a bad mod. Feel free to do so. I found that a moderator had made a sarcastic shitpost in response to his upsetting people by rebuking them for calling out an open fascist defending fascism in the thread for calling out fascists. He subtitled this thread “The mods are bad,”. Interpret this as you will, but I cannot see it as anything other than more hostility. This wasn’t a good look, so I decided to review that of your behavior I had found troubling before and after the creation of this thread. This is what I found: https://imgur.com/UPBCNSN Beer both didn’t consider a fascist posting fascist-apologia to be ‘more objectionable content”, and then he told posters to “ignore him so that his content doesn’t spread”; showing that he was well aware that the “content” of LordAba’s posts was objectionable to say the least, and then he accused people asking him why he wasn’t banning an open fascist in the thread of derailing the thread. The thread about how to spot fascists in gaming communities. He also, rather than doing what BIG MEATY SHITS says here, insisted that anyone who had a problem with his moderation decisions, debate him via private message, and threatened to enact “harsher punishments” on anyone who continued to criticize him in the venue he was responsible for, which was full of people criticizing him. In addition, in the first line of his three point list, he referenced the forum rules, not as an explanation for why he could NOT ban LordAba, but for why he was not OBLIGATED to ban LordAba. That he had the power to make a judgement call about baning a fascist sea lion, and chose not to. https://imgur.com/tIALW35 https://imgur.com/BZm6ioq Then, rather than taking criticism of his moderation in regards to the fascists that exist in a traditional gaming community that he moderates, in a thread about fascists that exist in traditional gaming communities, he insisted that all complaints be restricted to a place that I think we are all aware exists to kill off issues a moderator doesn’t want to deal with. Beer has certainly not had problems moderating directly in these threads before, but now he insisted that such discussion be restricted to a locked off environment where Beer would have support from outside of the membership of the community he moderates, membership he knew would likely take his side regardless of whether he was right or wrong. https://imgur.com/Qwt5bjj He then admitted his suggestion would likely have been inadequate and stifled complaint instead of leading to constructive feedback. When I followed his request to go to the new thread, I found… well I found the sarcastic and dismissive original post from the beginning of this post. https://imgur.com/aTRUV1v I was starting to feel fairly hostile to Beer at this point, which was extremely unnecessary and rude of me, and told him that immediately admitting you had been trying to brush a moderation problem under the rug made it look like he was just looking for an excuse to close the thread. He put me on probation for what was, I admit, an unnecessarily hostile post, although no more hostile than a great of what had been directed towards others than Beer, which had not resulted in any probations. He also doubled down on his authority as a moderator to demand posters move discussion elsewhere without any explanation of this decision to the numerous members of his community who were affected by it and arguing against it. https://imgur.com/WzM7rWL As you can see, this decision was immediately followed by more criticism and accusations of bad faith by the community he was moderating. https://imgur.com/TpQVVbS He then… attempted to make it clear that further attempts to criticize him or other members of the thread would result in the thread’s closure by his action? I think? This post was somewhat ambiguous, and I could have misinterpreted it. Oh, and this. If anyone is wondering if LordAba is really a fascist, and if Beer particularly cares about repeatedly posting fascist political ideas in the threads he moderates, here https://imgur.com/JMwJzX4 is LordAba insisting that he knows, KNOWS all of his detractors are are arguing in bad faith, trying to “gently caress up the thread”, hate him, and want to misrepresent him. This was, of course, the first attempt he had made to defend his writing from its detractors in this thread, but he KNOWS no one would argue with him in good faith, so why should he bother defending himself. LordAba spent most of this post defending his opinion that it’s not morally correct to consider it never acceptable to lock children up in cages, separating them from their caregivers and subjecting them to potentially lethal abuse, so long as their parents are violating racially motivated laws from the US that violate so many international laws human rights principles it's impossible to count them. He even says that he supported the continuation of sending children to these concentration camps so long as the law had not changed. He supported changes in the laws of course. He even described current conditions as “not good” and “unfortunate”. But so long as the Law (of the US) remained on the books we are morally obligated to follow it, crimes against humanity and all. Note that his very next sentence is him asking “Maybe if someone pointed out where I said I support sending children to literal concentration camps?”. In response to Control Volume and my requests that LordAba be banned for both reiterating fascist political ideas and speaking about his personal political beliefs in the thread for calling out Fascists in Traditional games, the two things Beer said would result in thread closures or bans if they continued, Beer… put LordAba on probation for six hours. https://imgur.com/PPygKyZ Note both me and BIG MEATY poo poo reiterating our disbelief that Beer had not banned LordAba for the very behavior he had claimed would be required to ban him: repeated posting of obvious fascist talking points and derailing the thread with defences of a political belief. Beer’s ultimate response to all this? https://imgur.com/sUhpo9Z I believe that the moderator Beer4TheBeerGod is likely either sympathetic to to fascism, or nepotistic enough to allow LordAba to continue to disseminate positively portrayed fascist material, concern troll attempts to identify fascists, and interrupt discussions of how to combat fascism in our communities because he has some other desire to protect or promote LordAba than his politics. In either case I have become convinced that Beer4TheBeerGod is neither competent in his duties as a moderator nor willing to carry them out in order to create a safe, welcoming, and constructive community for discussion of traditional games. I am now requesting that Beer4TheBeerGod either publicly resign from his duties as a moderator, publically direct me to the best means of communication with whomever is capable of reviewing if Beer4TheBeerGod is able and willing to execute his responsibilities as moderator and who has the power to, if necessary, remove him from that position. I am publically requesting that all this be done in the open in the interest that it be widely known my actions regarding Beer4TheBeerGod, and to make my satisfaction known to the wider community. I would not make this request unless I suspected that at least a portion of the community Beer4TheBeerGod moderates would agree with my conclusion of his inability to do so. (Most of the material from the forum interactions is in the form of screenshots rather than quotations, so as to prevent the possibility of previous writings in these forums being changed or removed.) I have chosen to post this in the “Fascists in Trad Gaming” thread because it is both obviously relevant to the thread and I (and everyone else I believe) have found ourselves mysteriously unable to post in the thread for criticizing Beer4TheBeerGod for reasons we have not been informed of. Imagine that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 30, 2019 04:27
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:He's since pivoted to trying to get in on that sweet alt right grift. It's not going too well, if the whole banned from gencon, assault suit thing is any indication He got banned from gencon, ha!
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Apr 30, 2019 04:29
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Jakodee, when I said "just be a normal person" that's the opposite of what I was talking about.
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Apr 30, 2019 04:36
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Jakodee deserves one of those angry shakey avatars that's made up of a bunch of  smiles scrolling endlessly
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Apr 30, 2019 04:48
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Wizard posted:He got banned from gencon, ha! Yeah who cares about that I just caught up on the thread and Mark me down in the "Beer sucks" column A dude with a history of being fash "just asking questions" about what adjacent means is not here for discussion. He's here to be a shithead, in a thread about hating people like him. Probing people for questioning you allowing him to post unmolested is a bad move
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Apr 30, 2019 04:49
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