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TTBF posted:I've got a ton of issues with how mana works in this game, but some powers being expensive ways to do things instantly ain't among them. My biggest gripe is how poorly the small costs scale. I do a few expansion wars and Rome is starving? Why? Because all of the pops I captured as slaves go only to my capital. Nothing I can do about that. Can't even stop taking slaves. So I built granaries to boost the population that could be supported. Still not enough. So what can I do about the 110 slaves causing my 44 citizens to starve? The cost to move a slave was 4 civic, which on its own seems a small fee. But when looking at moving a whole bunch of people out of necessity it really sucks. Worst part is I was getting 4 civic a month, so I could do the math real easy on how much doing anything would delay my next invention. You have to import grain, fish, or livestock to stop starvation. This was a historical problem for much of Rome's (the city) existence. Many of their conquests were for the purpose of securing grain imports to sustain the city. Granaries don't produce food, they store and preserve them. So they help with pop growth (and soon pop cap), but not with starvation. Only extra sources of food will help that. Dramicus fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 21:10
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I don't buy for one second that there's any inherent problem with monarch points from a gameplay perspective, it just butthurts a certain type of grognard extremely hard because it's the "wrong kind of abstraction". The claims thing is a great example, CK2's system is loving horrible but some people really like it because of some weird misplaced sense of verisimlitude. With that said monarch points are only interesting if there are competing things you want to spend them on and for the most part that only applies to oratory power at the moment. I'd like it if inventions went from being all civic to having a cost based on the invention type. Then move some of the other current oratory functions over to other power types since drat near everything is oratory at the moment. If you want to remove monarch points entirely then alternate systems would probably have to be based on either cooldowns, or adding more costs to functions which previously had MP costs. And surprise surprise this would essentially turn whatever units those costs are made in into de facto new currencies (much like f.e. how CK2 prestige is a currency)
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Apr 30, 2019 21:18
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Prestige in ck2 works fairly realistically though. It's a type of currency, sure, but it's one that you are encouraged not to spend because it grants bonuses by being possessed. People have higher opinions of you if you are prestigious and will be less impressed if you blow your prestige on stuff. Also, I like the claims because half the charm of the medieval world is the arcane justification for everything and it takes the focus off of map painting. You really have to plan your expansion years in advance.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:32
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RabidWeasel posted:With that said monarch points are only interesting if there are competing things you want to spend them on and for the most part that only applies to oratory power at the moment. I'd like it if inventions went from being all civic to having a cost based on the invention type. Then move some of the other current oratory functions over to other power types since drat near everything is oratory at the moment. Not sure this will work. The current balance is that Civic power is the most universally needed mana for most of the countries. Everybody needs it for trade routes and advances. But I imagine it's significantly less important for tribals who exhaust their advancement pool quick and start relatively small so they don't have a lot of trade. You'd also need to make inventions cost more cause it will be much easier to scrap 300 MP of each type than 1200 Civic MP to research every invention - not that I say you should do it, but you know what I mean, inventions become a go-to place to drop your spare MP into. In general, I think that I:R is interesting in that it went from EU4 approach where every type of MP is important to a more subtle one. Religious points seem to be the least important, but when I got into a series of monarch deaths (all the inheritors were old) I really saw their importance. Completely agree with your thoughts about the system in general, including CK2.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:36
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The game just doesn't need MP. They made a good first step removing the stability mechanic as it was. Tech is based on character ability. Conversion can be too. Just remove the mana system altogether. Its shoehorned into a game that didn't need it
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Apr 30, 2019 21:49
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Like you lose nothing from removing mana cost from trade routes or law changes. They already have cooldowns and tradeoffs. Promotion and population transfer being solely linked to mana expense satisfies no one, but I know they're already working on that. And I'm not "grognard" at all, I just want the game in a state where I can play it with friends and have fun. And hey, here's a neat idea you could do with inventions: have them be discovered by characters in court. How cool would it be to assemble a court of Greek mathematicians playing tall? Maybe have it spread from the province like institutions in eu4? Beats 100 mana for everything forever. Average Bear fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 21:56
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People would be insanely annoyed if tech was random
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Apr 30, 2019 22:03
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CharlestheHammer posted:People would be insanely annoyed if tech was random If it was properly weighted and came at roughly the same rapid pace it does now, maybe not. I like inventions as A Thing but it does get tiresome having to make that choice every other minute or so if you're playing a nation with decent research and civics income
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Apr 30, 2019 22:06
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Tech isn't random though. But I guess inventions are unlocked by tech. IDK the games a bit of a mess
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Apr 30, 2019 22:08
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Claims in CK2(And most council actions in general) are annoying as poo poo. There's using RNG to increase complexity and then there's gating fun behind luck. CK2 leans hard on the latter. I much prefer MP to that.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:10
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Why do you need either? Just unlock all CBs forever. You can already choose superiority or whatever. Expansion being limited by internal politics or economic viability is better than spend 180 points for everyone to give the greenlight for war. But the CK2 point doesn't hold anyway because it's not a game where blobbing is the focus.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:14
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Average Bear posted:Tech isn't random though. But I guess inventions are unlocked by tech. IDK the games a bit of a mess No, the system proposed would be hiring advisors and hoping a tech pops. Like CK2 uses the spymaster but without also being able to do it yourself
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Apr 30, 2019 22:22
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Maybe you hire tech people and there four categories and whenever the tech pops you pick one of three like it is now? And the more people you hire the quicker it goes. Which is also more make work jobs for families so you can spread your state income around! Honestly that's a brilliant idea that plays into systems already there. Similarly I'd love to see sub commanders or the three front system ck2 has, just to be able to offload more jobs. Also it would encourage more loyal cohorts to people which means more chance of chaos, another positive.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:53
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After thinking about it some more, I really don't understand the problem with monarch points by themselves. It's a bit of a board game mechanic, but it's a good mechanic that can lead to meaningful decisions. So yeah, give sun and mil points more use.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:56
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Well, the problem is mostly they aren't used in any way that's interesting. Character based progression is much more interesting and in line with the setting. EU4 does MP well because the core or the game was built and refined around it. In this game, its tacked on at the expense of more interesting and satisfying gameplay.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:58
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what happens to inventions that don't get invented before you rank up a tech level? do they disappear forever? I was holding off taking the one for reduce claim costs, leveled up a rank, and it's not being applied to the diplomacy costs.
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Apr 30, 2019 23:37
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jfood posted:what happens to inventions that don't get invented before you rank up a tech level? do they disappear forever? I was holding off taking the one for reduce claim costs, leveled up a rank, and it's not being applied to the diplomacy costs. No, they go into a queue that's last in, first out. Basically, you have to discover new inventions to be able to access the older inventions.
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Apr 30, 2019 23:39
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Someone made a ledger mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1727192297
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Apr 30, 2019 23:41
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Fellblade posted:The hilarious part about this video is that PDS already said they were changing it to take time rather than instant results before this video was even posted. Why did they release this broken garbage game if they already knew everything had to be reworked to be even borderline acceptable?
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Apr 30, 2019 23:46
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Zohar posted:Someone made a ledger mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1727192297 Another nice QoL mod: movable windows https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1724726340 A lot of the windows overlap by default, which has annoyed me at times.
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Apr 30, 2019 23:55
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I've complained about it before, but please, please. please lower or at least make lifespans a little bit more random. Right now the average age of my clan chiefs is 75.  Right now the game is a highlander sim.
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May 1, 2019 00:02
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Is there somewhere in this game that will tell me what a unit will cost in maintenance before I recruit it or is that another thing missing at launch for no good reason? It's really hard to try and play a tribe and need to recruit some cohorts to try and counteract the constant loyalty loss of your clan chieftans while also on a shoestring budget when you can't tell what it is going to cost you and god forbid you recruit too many because then you have to pay to release them.
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May 1, 2019 00:05
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siggy2021 posted:Is there somewhere in this game that will tell me what a unit will cost in maintenance before I recruit it or is that another thing missing at launch for no good reason? Click a province and click build units
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May 1, 2019 00:07
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steinrokkan posted:Why did they release this broken garbage game if they already knew everything had to be reworked to be even borderline acceptable? Because that has literally been Paradox's business model for as long as they have existed. Releasing a basic game and reworking it over the course of years worth of DLC is what they do. CK2 was maybe their first game that was playable from release. And I don't mean "fun" from release. I mean could literally run without crashing and had few obviously broken core game mechanics.
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May 1, 2019 00:29
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DurosKlav posted:Click a province and click build units It's a good thing they gave you at least 2 other much more convenient ways to build units, but didn't bother displaying that information anywhere else.
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May 1, 2019 00:31
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steinrokkan posted:Why did they release this broken garbage game if they already knew everything had to be reworked to be even borderline acceptable? Quarterly reports for shareholders are now a thing for Paradox considering they went public two years ago.
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May 1, 2019 00:44
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steinrokkan posted:Why did they release this broken garbage game if they already knew everything had to be reworked to be even borderline acceptable? possibly maybe you are exaggerating slightly
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May 1, 2019 01:05
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Fuligin posted:possibly maybe you are exaggerating slightly I mean the game is pretty bad in it's current state and very clearly unfinished so
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May 1, 2019 01:15
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Sydin posted:I mean the game is pretty bad in it's current state and very clearly unfinished so I mean, I think it's pretty good and there's definitely others who have been enjoying it in this thread. Calling it unfinished is just dumb. It's got some rough edges, but this is not a launch Stellaris situation Obviously there are people who are much cooler on it though, which is also fine!
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May 1, 2019 01:28
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How do you kill your ruler? This dude is practically Enrique-level and the heir is really good and old as gently caress...
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May 1, 2019 01:29
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Weembles posted:Because that has literally been Paradox's business model for as long as they have existed. Releasing a basic game and reworking it over the course of years worth of DLC is what they do. yeah this isn't even remotely true. It's Paradox's business model about since CK2, sure, but if you think CK2 is when Paradox was founded, uhhhh
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May 1, 2019 01:39
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As far as I can tell the game isn’t broken. It doesn’t even play that buggy
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May 1, 2019 01:40
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As much as I appreciate characters having a health bar so you can prepare for a succession properly, everyone being essentially immortal until they get cancer at 75 with no easy way to kill them off early results in some hellish years with a 1/1/0/3 ruler.Beamed posted:yeah this isn't even remotely true. It's Paradox's business model about since CK2, sure, but if you think CK2 is when Paradox was founded, uhhhh Wasn't the pre-CK2 business model "release broken thing, release expansions that broke more things, abandon game"?
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May 1, 2019 01:43
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Funky Valentine posted:Wasn't the pre-CK2 business model "release broken thing, release expansions that broke more things, abandon game"? You were pretty lucky if you got as far as release expansions tbh.
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May 1, 2019 01:53
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Funky Valentine posted:As much as I appreciate characters having a health bar so you can prepare for a succession properly, everyone being essentially immortal until they get cancer at 75 with no easy way to kill them off early results in some hellish years with a 1/1/0/3 ruler. Yeah seems silly when dozens and dozens of characters support some rando pretender, but then welp Enrique is king now and all that pretender stuff didn't matter at all. Like let me decide to support a pretender.
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May 1, 2019 02:41
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Funky Valentine posted:As much as I appreciate characters having a health bar so you can prepare for a succession properly, everyone being essentially immortal until they get cancer at 75 with no easy way to kill them off early results in some hellish years with a 1/1/0/3 ruler. EU3 was fine for all its existence but yeah CK1 and Vicky 1 were messes. EU Rome worked fine but it barely had a game to be broken
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May 1, 2019 03:57
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It's rough and a lot of aspects feel pointless but it's far from the usual broken mess we get from Paradox. It's also really pretty and has the basis of a really, really good game once it gets rebalanced a bit.
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May 1, 2019 03:59
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Listening to the history of rome and playing a little bit of the game I think im just running into the problem of the era not actually being all that well suited for an EUIV style grand strategy game. EUIV has all sorts of little regional show downs all over the globe (Ottomans v Hre, Spain v Morocco, France v HRE and Britain, etc.) Meanwhile of the major power stand offs of this era are just the Rome v Carthage deathmatch and a bunch of warring greek successor states destined to get rinsed by the winner of that deathmatch. On top of that there is no grand crisis to flip the table like the Reformation or the Mongol invasions. This entire period is marked by the unbroken and unchallenged ascendancy of Rome as a world dominating power and all of the interesting crises or table flipping (after the punic wars at least) was an internal struggle inside the empire/republic rather than some outside invading force or extranational institution breaking down. Internal struggles that the game seems mostly uninterested in modelling well.
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May 1, 2019 04:10
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Beamed posted:yeah this isn't even remotely true. It's Paradox's business model about since CK2, sure, but if you think CK2 is when Paradox was founded, uhhhh What are you talking about? Have you played anything before CK2? Those games were unplayable for like a year after they came out.
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May 1, 2019 04:44
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https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3888542 I'll wait for the upcoming patch to unpause the game, but the starting scenario is modded and the Let's Play is up, but still slightly Under Construction. A couple of starting votes will tide us over for a few days.
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May 1, 2019 04:54
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