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Cessna posted:
Exactly. Just look how wargames try to model tank reliability. One way is to increase costs for unreliable tanks. But that means players can easily plan around poor reliability, since they know exactly how many extra points were spent in every game. Adding random rolls for reliability is a more realistic way to show how poor reliability regularly ruined tactical plans. But it is not fun to lose a match because of totally random reliability rolls before the game even starts, and it isn't good game design either.
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May 1, 2019 01:46
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Cessna posted:The Nazis didn't anticipate a drat thing. They had the war economy of an addict, lurching from from looting one country to the next. i'm not going to bother responding to this post in any greater detail except to remind you that for the sake of brevity, and for wargame modeling, i acknowledged i was playing fast and loose with terms and concepts i had no interest of committing to literally - asking me why i think the germans had a real and serious materials surplus seems like a wilful misreading the germans certainly had enough materials at the start to begin a war but they had no ability to see it through to any sort of favorable conclusion- if describing that situation as an apparent early materials surplus, but one that in practice becomes so rapidly depleted it'd make for a game so imbalanced wehraboos whine, like i did in the post, leads you to believe that i'm really talking about a real and serious surplus fueled by incredible foresight and anticipation... i have no idea what to tell you
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May 1, 2019 01:54
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Corruption is a consequence of the fascist ideology. Oh and the bolded part there? That's why people use "fascist-adjacent" to refer to sexists, racists, religious bigots, homophobes, etc. Because all that poo poo comes from the the same place of categorising people into groups (races, genders, national origin, religion, disability, etc) and placing those groups in a rigid hierarchy such that you are at or near the very top, then dissonantly claiming (even if it's only to yourself) that you deserve to be there not because of the circumstance of your birth giving you the in-group race/gender/nationality/etc but because you struggled your way to a personal greatness that is deserved by you because it's 100% your own achievement and also it's unattainable by inferior race/gender/nationality/etc because they're just not capable of the same kind of personal greatness you are. And yeah, that obviously makes no internal sense. That's the point. It's similar to the way the nazis, who were poo poo at war and poo poo at government, were so convinced of their own greatness at war and governing that their bullshit is somehow* still convincing to people 70+ years later. *"Look at us, we've clearly got our poo poo together, standing up straight with shiny boots and cool tanks. You could be just like us, all white and powerful. Hell you're white, you're more than halfway there already, you're already special!" Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:15 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 02:03
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So, kind of back on topic, if I ever get into historicals (FoW, BA, whatever), what YouTubers should I avoid? None of the games I currently play really scratch the "tactical" itch that WHFB did, and I keep flirting with KoW, BA, and other games where morale and positioning actually matter, but I'm not sure where I shouldn't start looking. Not that I don't wanna have an involved discussion of why the Nazis really needed a heavy or strategic bomber, why the "world's greatest" war machine didn't know the rail gauge in territory they planned to occupy, how synthetic petroleum was a death knell from the start, etc, but I don't want this to get closed for actually just being another milhist thread
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May 1, 2019 02:27
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Saw over 100 new posts in the Fascists in Trad Gaming thread, suspected the worst, pleasantly surprised to find informative and interesting discussion occurring. A couple of things in no particular order: On "game balance," well-designed games aren't necessarily balanced in a single scenario, but rather across multiple linked scenarios in a campaign. The Too Fat Lardies' "Pint-Sized Campaigns" for Chain of Command are a really good example of this. The forces can be wildly asymmetric, but the objectives of the campaign often place time or scoring constraints on the "stronger" force. So yeah, the British are going to wreck German face in the "Road to Bremen" campaign, but can they make it to the city before the German high-command surrenders (or the Soviets beat them to it)? On the whole, TFL is one of the companies that does a good job of breaking the "SS as Nietschean SuperMen" myth. In a number of their late-war campaigns, the German formations can best be described as trash. On the topic of Nazi engineering, there were a few things the Germans did right, but one of my take-aways from Alan Moorehead's epic "The Desert War" was that every army coveted some part of every other army's kit. For instance, he wrote at length about the amazing rations and sundries the British captured from the Italians. And when it came to German kit, the Brits didn't care so much about their tanks or guns, but loved their gas cans. Turns out the German gas can design was leaps ahead in terms of utility, durability, and consistency, and they had a rigidly observed system (fascists, who'da thunk it) for differentiating gas cans from water cans (the latter were painted with a white cross). So simple, but orders of magnitude better than the bespoke garbage the Brits were using at the time - so much so that the very term "Jerry-can" dates from this era. For their part, the Germans in North Africa were exceedingly covetous of British trucks, and pressed them into service whenever they were captured.
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May 1, 2019 02:31
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evol262 posted:actually just being another milhist thread Yeah for real. The milhist thread is great, the "here's exactly how the nazis were poo poo at everything, no really everything, you wouldn't fuckin believe it. Like each of their belt loops took longer to sew than a whole russian uniform and thre's 14 per pair of trousers and they somehow contain 27 ball bearings each and they didn't even hold the belt in place any more after 1940" starts within the first couple of pages and never stops for more than a couple of pages. But there's no need to duplicate it here. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:36 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 02:34
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evol262 posted:So, kind of back on topic, if I ever get into historicals (FoW, BA, whatever), what YouTubers should I avoid?
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May 1, 2019 02:37
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Oh and the bolded part there? That's why people use "fascist-adjacent" to refer to sexists, racists, religious bigots, homophobes, etc. Because all that poo poo comes from the the same place of categorising people into groups (races, genders, national origin, religion, disability, etc) and placing those groups in a rigid hierarchy such that you are at or near the very top, then dissonantly claiming (even if it's only to yourself) that you deserve to be there not because of the circumstance of your birth giving you the in-group race/gender/nationality/etc but because you struggled your way to a personal greatness that is deserved by you because it's 100% your own achievement and also it's unattainable by inferior race/gender/nationality/etc because they're just not capable of the same kind of personal greatness you are. golden bubble posted:Exactly. Just look how wargames try to model tank reliability. One way is to increase costs for unreliable tanks. But that means players can easily plan around poor reliability, since they know exactly how many extra points were spent in every game. Adding random rolls for reliability is a more realistic way to show how poor reliability regularly ruined tactical plans. But it is not fun to lose a match because of totally random reliability rolls before the game even starts, and it isn't good game design either.
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May 1, 2019 03:41
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Nessus posted:One way to do this on squad-level stuff would be having some kind of reliability check after "pushed" actions in the game. So Tigers or whatever could be worked around but you'd have to play conservatively, which in turn means the superficially inferior tanks that can push it to the limit way more reliably will be far more flexible, and flexibility wins wars! gently caress me that's brilliant.
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May 1, 2019 03:54
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Yeah for real. The milhist thread is great, the "here's exactly how the nazis were poo poo at everything, no really everything, you wouldn't fuckin believe it. Like each of their belt loops took longer to sew than a whole russian uniform and thre's 14 per pair of trousers and they somehow contain 27 ball bearings each and they didn't even hold the belt in place any more after 1940" starts within the first couple of pages and never stops for more than a couple of pages. But there's no need to duplicate it here. Sorry if I've missed it somewhere but could someone link this?
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May 1, 2019 04:14
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Here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3872282
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May 1, 2019 04:25
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TheBigAristotle posted:I need a solid YouTube series on why the Nazis were morons and made bad stuff, this is very entertaining Potential history has a cool couple of videos about how Germany literally could not win WW2 which "kind of" touches on it. Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbim2kGwhpc Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTrjxOPYNY
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May 1, 2019 04:47
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Serious question from a dumb American that has never seen the movie Zulu. I have a small multi-racial mixed-gender Praetorian Guard army. Does this make me part of the problem or part of the solution?
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May 1, 2019 05:40
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Bucnasti posted:Serious question from a dumb American that has never seen the movie Zulu. I'd assume neither, it probably just puts you in the large 'more or less neutral' space like people who aren't fascists but do occasionally play German armies in WWII. Which might also put you ahead of the curve based on the discussion of the Praetorians earlier.
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May 1, 2019 06:38
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Bucnasti posted:Serious question from a dumb American that has never seen the movie Zulu. zulu and zulu dawn are about fuckwit colonizers being owned by the natives, with the sideshow at Rorke's Drift leaving the survivors shell shocked and their illusions of white supremacy shattered. go nuts imo.
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May 1, 2019 06:43
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I’m also curious about using certain cultural signifiers with non human races in other games. Like Orkz in 40k have several models with Mongolian style hats.
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May 1, 2019 06:51
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:I’m also curious about using certain cultural signifiers with non human races in other games. I've heard that GW made a conscious decision to move away from real world cultural analogues which seems like a good/cool thing to do. e: I says "seems like" because it was probably motivated by them trying to copyright the poo poo out of everything
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May 1, 2019 06:57
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So, adjacent to the topic, but the talk of how Hydra are now a fascism cipher reminds me of how the Imperium became a fascist cipher and how Zeon are a fascist cipher and... Basically, are there any worlds which have discount nazis where the nazis aren't lionized by real nazis? I'm guessing not because nazis will like seeing other nazis, but.
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May 1, 2019 07:49
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:I’m also curious about using certain cultural signifiers with non human races in other games. do you mean something like the tau? 
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May 1, 2019 07:53
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spectralent posted:Basically, are there any worlds which have discount nazis where the nazis aren't lionized by real nazis? I'm guessing not because nazis will like seeing other nazis, but. Hogan's Heroes? Indiana Jones? E: Blues brothers.
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May 1, 2019 07:54
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Hogan's Heroes? Those are literal Nazis being lambasted though.
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May 1, 2019 08:08
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I've never seen anybody actually defend Pathfinder's Cheliax, but I have never been able to shake the feeling that they're out there. Plenty of talking about whether or not they're supposed to be nazis though.
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May 1, 2019 08:15
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Eox posted:I've never seen anybody actually defend Pathfinder's Cheliax, but I have never been able to shake the feeling that they're out there. Plenty of talking about whether or not they're supposed to be nazis though. I'd never heard of this, slammed in a GIS and ahhhhhh....
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May 1, 2019 08:19
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For the uninitiated,
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May 1, 2019 08:20
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Oh and the bolded part there? That's why people use "fascist-adjacent" to refer to sexists, racists, religious bigots, homophobes, etc. Because all that poo poo comes from the the same place of categorising people into groups (races, genders, national origin, religion, disability, etc) and placing those groups in a rigid hierarchy such that you are at or near the very top, then dissonantly claiming (even if it's only to yourself) that you deserve to be there not because of the circumstance of your birth giving you the in-group race/gender/nationality/etc but because you struggled your way to a personal greatness that is deserved by you because it's 100% your own achievement and also it's unattainable by inferior race/gender/nationality/etc because they're just not capable of the same kind of personal greatness you are. This has absolutely been passively, and more recently actively going on. So the whole red pill/men going their own way types went on to join up with the 'gaters and the more delusional of them are now posting about Q, while the majority are ranting about anything and everything that threatens their fragile self-worth and then the more extreme have gone on to complaining that the recent synagogue killer didn't do a good enough job. As you look around the 'groups' there's a huge amount of crossover, so TheRPGSite is absolutely loaded with them, and of course Pundit now complains about communists rather than swine because he's gone even more anti-women/liberals/everyone with a brain and then the toxic magic community all sup from the same well, and the 'gaters of course and so n. It's all one big breeding ground for bigots and lovely people. You can see all their public poo poo on the likes of reddit and the chans and kiwifarms, but in the last 2-3 years there's been a lot of movement onto discord, with extremist groups using other sites to recruit people/vet them/interview them etc.
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May 1, 2019 08:43
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I've played and written a lot of Chelaxian characters because a lot of my stuff focuses on freedom fighters/revolutionaries, it works really well for that sort of character. Characters who sever ties with their fascist culture and even families, offering their lives to at least begin process of change.
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May 1, 2019 08:57
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spectralent posted:So, adjacent to the topic, but the talk of how Hydra are now a fascism cipher reminds me of how the Imperium became a fascist cipher and how Zeon are a fascist cipher and... Thing is, the settings with discount Nazis always fall for the same assumption that real Nazis past and present love: that rigid authoritarianism and fascism make a nation stronger, rather than corrupt and incompetent. So yeah, it's no wonder actual Nazis love seeing their biases confirmed. If a setting portrayed its fash realistically I'd imagine they'd stop being lionised by actual fash. E: case in point, the very few people who obsessively roleplay as the Pigmasks from Mother 3. Whybird fucked around with this message at 09:21 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 09:00
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Someone wrote a great thing in the 40k thread about the Imperium being Stalinist rather than Nazis I wish I could recall who did it.
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May 1, 2019 09:21
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Whybird posted:Thing is, the settings with discount Nazis always fall for the same assumption that real Nazis past and present love: that rigid authoritarianism and fascism make a nation stronger, rather than corrupt and incompetent. This has long been a major problem plaguing, like, nearly all tabletop game settings. Cheliax as mentioned above is a great example of this poo poo, to the point where their SuperCops that help maintain the horrible obvious nazi analogue slave-empire are allowed to be of neutral alignment.
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May 1, 2019 09:32
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ProfessorCirno posted:This has long been a major problem plaguing, like, nearly all tabletop game settings. Cheliax as mentioned above is a great example of this poo poo, to the point where their SuperCops that help maintain the horrible obvious nazi analogue slave-empire are allowed to be of neutral alignment. Behold, the very picture of neutrality  Quick edit : They can also be lawful good
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May 1, 2019 09:35
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PinheadSlim posted:Behold, the very picture of neutrality Looks like a centrist to me.
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May 1, 2019 09:36
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JBP posted:Looks like a centrist to me. And now the calm and logical centrist has to defend himself from the violent sword-wielding SJW 
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May 1, 2019 09:40
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Whybird posted:Thing is, the settings with discount Nazis always fall for the same assumption that real Nazis past and present love: that rigid authoritarianism and fascism make a nation stronger, rather than corrupt and incompetent. That's it. The only ones they won't love are the bumbling buffoon caricatures (hogans heroes, blues brothers) or two dimensional Evil Dr Badguy antagonists (indiana jones), and those aren't condusive to a wargame or rpg setting. And... uh... practically every single fantasy setting ever has an unexamined assumption that things used to be great before a great evil hosed them up which often turns into something weirdly close to the fascist idealisation of the past. Especially when the great evil is sentient humanoids who are, you know, just evil because that's what they are. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 10:17 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 10:09
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PinheadSlim posted:And now the calm and logical centrist has to defend himself from the violent sword-wielding SJW Look how much money that disgusting liberal clearly has smdh
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May 1, 2019 10:17
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JBP posted:Look how much money that disgusting liberal clearly has smdh You're not too far off the mark, that's an Eagle Knight. They're part of the Andoran military, which is the liberal ideal fantasy America.
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May 1, 2019 10:44
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Pathfinder's setting is excrutiatingly bad.
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May 1, 2019 11:44
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ProfessorCirno posted:Pathfinder's setting is excrutiatingly bad. This is objectively true
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May 1, 2019 11:45
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:And... uh... practically every single fantasy setting ever has an unexamined assumption that things used to be great before a great evil hosed them up which often turns into something weirdly close to the fascist idealisation of the past. Especially when the great evil is sentient humanoids who are, you know, just evil because that's what they are. The way to get around this, I think, is to have the thing that hosed up the past (which had cool things like representative democracy and civil rights) be the rise of an autocratic regime which burned a load of their records, banned their science, and which the PCs are now plucky resistance fighters trying to overthrow. Like, that makes for a brilliant source of endless mooks for the PCs to mow their way through guilt-free, with the occasional lone trooper who managed to get his hideously overengineered and impractical magic weapon actually working to serve as a boss fight.
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May 1, 2019 12:09
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Whybird posted:Thing is, the settings with discount Nazis always fall for the same assumption that real Nazis past and present love: that rigid authoritarianism and fascism make a nation stronger, rather than corrupt and incompetent. While I can't speak for the franchise as a whole in the original Gundam series at least I did get the distinct impression that Zeon was incompetent and corrupt. They do spend the last couple episodes pointlessly killing one another.
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May 1, 2019 12:21
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Fsmhunk posted:While I can't speak for the franchise as a whole in the original Gundam series at least I did get the distinct impression that Zeon was incompetent and corrupt. They do spend the last couple episodes pointlessly killing one another. Zeon seems more like some insane feudal aristocracy to me.
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May 1, 2019 12:22
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