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I mean sure, in Candy. But Candy is miserable that way. She comes off as pretty reasonable re: Dave and Karkat in Meat, and certainly not as a "cockblock". If anything, she's trying to make them work out their feelings for each other. She also expressly doesn't want a relationship unless they're into it, and if anything wants clarity on how they feel about her - vs. Candy, where she pressures them into relationships they're both uncomfortable with.
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Apr 30, 2019 12:45
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I guess what I'm saying is that it's probably not useful to read Candy Jade as "this is what would have happened if Jade hadn't been possessed by Calliope". Rather, the Candy route routinely exaggerates every character's worst traits and turns them into angsty caricatures of themselves, and that's in evidence even when you compare Candy Jade's intro to Meat Jade's intro. She's way more respectful and reasonable in the latter than the former.
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Apr 30, 2019 12:49
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:The writing for Jade in Meat/Candy was a lot like the way a teenage girl who hasn't yet overcome her internalized misogyny would write Kairi in a Kingdom Hearts slash fiction circa early 2000's. Android Blues posted:I mean sure, in Candy. But Candy is miserable that way. She comes off as pretty reasonable re: Dave and Karkat in Meat, and certainly not as a "cockblock". If anything, she's trying to make them work out their feelings for each other. She also expressly doesn't want a relationship unless they're into it, and if anything wants clarity on how they feel about her - vs. Candy, where she pressures them into relationships they're both uncomfortable with. In Meat, Dave and Karkat don't think Jade is being reasonable at all. See page 3: quote:DAVE: uh
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Apr 30, 2019 17:02
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It's hard to really fault Jade, in Meat at least, as Dave and Karkat were being excessively hesitant about the whole thing and had basically been living together in denial for literally years, barely leaving the house. I actually found it kind of unbelievable from the two of them tbh. Karkat didn't have any problems admitting he had feelings for Terezi (or at least he got over them pretty quickly).
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Apr 30, 2019 19:58
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The only explanation I'm thinking of is that Dave still had hangups abt being gay and just in general and Karkat is aware enough and respectful enough to get that and keep a bit of distance, and Jade being around that just adds a layer of awkward to the whole thing The idea that Karkat wouldn't shout something out at one point or another over all those years is a little wild but admittedly it's not explored super deeply, just observed at points
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Apr 30, 2019 20:22
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Karkat is actually pretty restrained and reasonable when it comes to respecting other people's boundaries, especially where romantic advice is concerned. There's a reason all the other trolls wound up coming to him for advice.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:32
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Nephthys posted:It's hard to really fault Jade, in Meat at least, as Dave and Karkat were being excessively hesitant about the whole thing and had basically been living together in denial for literally years, barely leaving the house. Looking at two people living together and yelling "holy poo poo you two hurry up and gently caress because in my opinion that's where your relationship should be" is tremendously hosed up no matter how well intentioned the meddling is and it wouldn't surprise me if D&K's relationship in meat ends up just as hosed up as candy because of it e: Even if the issue is "denial", forcing the issue without Dave self-resolving said denial just means you've got someone in denial about themselves that's now at odds with their relationship and that sort of cognitive dissonance doesn't necessarily result in "denial issue solved and magically goes away" e2: Fully self actualized davebot shows up and steals karkat away just like the vriska/(vriska)/meenah thing Ursine Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 20:37
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Rand Brittain posted:Karkat is actually pretty restrained and reasonable when it comes to respecting other people's boundaries, especially where romantic advice is concerned. There's a reason all the other trolls wound up coming to him for advice. Pierson fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 20:54
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If Davepetasprite hadn't flown into the Sun (like a loving piece of garbage), he might have helped resolve this whole mess.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:59
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I was rereading some parts of Candy to comment on the whole Jade/Dave/Kat thing and I completely missed this the first time through;Candy15 posted:John pushes out into the churchyard. The rain has receded into a light drizzle, which is nice. Much less like being being trapped in a high-pressure shower and more like being sprayed with a plant mister. He looks around the largely decorative graveyard and spots Dave and Karkat huddled together beneath an eave of the churchyard walls. John begins to move towards them but stops when he notices how close together they’re standing. Dave’s got his suit jacket unbuttoned and pulled over Karkat’s head to shield him from the rain. Karkat’s the one talking—his caterpillar eyebrows furrowed, but his gaze soft. Whatever he’s saying makes Dave turn his face away, but Karkat winds a hand in his shirt and tugs him in, forces him to make eye contact. They both go still, seeming to finally realize how close their faces have gotten, how Karkat’s fingers are brushing down the length of Dave’s torso. Dave dips down so that their noses are bumping. Karkat’s eyes are so wide it’s amazing they don’t pop out. For a moment, it looks like they’re going to... John crashed Dave and Karkat's big emotional breakthrough moment. I don't know what it means, but the narrator had it out for Dave/Kat in the Candy route.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:03
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Scrree posted:I was rereading some parts of Candy to comment on the whole Jade/Dave/Kat thing and I completely missed this the first time through; can't remember, are there any M/M pairings in candy that pan out?
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Apr 30, 2019 21:14
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IIRC the only healthy relationship in Candy is Rose/Kanaya.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:16
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:Looking at two people living together and yelling "holy poo poo you two hurry up and gently caress because in my opinion that's where your relationship should be" is tremendously hosed up no matter how well intentioned the meddling is and it wouldn't surprise me if D&K's relationship in meat ends up just as hosed up as candy because of it Firstly, that's a big mischaracterisation. In Meat Jade basically only ever tries pushing them into admitting they have feelings for each other on one occasion and really isn't overly pushy about it. She also just asks them if they want to date and to just say no if they don't and they both dodge the question. Eventually she leaves and tells them to figure it out and they again avoid the issue. Pretty sure that's the only time she talks about it. Secondly, I disagree on this. Dave and Karkat really aren't handling the situation healthily and having a frank discussion about it like Jade did is a valid way to try to help them, particularly when she's involved in the relationship like she is. She only brings it up while trying to clarify their relationship with her in the first place. Meat Jade is actually respectful of boundaries. This goes out of the window in Candy where it really does seem like she pressures them into a relationship but Candy forcing hetero relationships in unsettling and uncomfortable ways was kind of the point.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:32
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https://twitter.com/homestuck/status/1123577920163860482 Wlep.
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May 1, 2019 15:58
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gettin ready to post the epilogue epilogue that reveals the whole thing was a KFC binge dream suffered by donald trummp
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May 1, 2019 16:02
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May Day is the best day to reveal Homestuck's true purpose as antifa propaganda with a 300 page manga about overthrowing the Crocker Administration.
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May 1, 2019 16:11
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Wait, so, is there more or is the Homestuck Twitter account just celebrating the fact that May exists?
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May 1, 2019 19:50
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It does seem tricky that respecting autonomy means not interfering with Dave's journey toward self-actualization (Jade trying to force the issue, Dirk's narrative manipulation), but the only times Dave seems to actually get over that hurdle and make progress is with the help of outside perspective (merging with Nepeta, becoming Ultimate Dave). It raises the question of letting someone fail on their own so long as it's the result of their own choices, which seems to be a common thread of Candy - the characters are free of The Plot (but not, obviously, the actual plot of the real-life author) and so can pursue the lives they want to lead, but there's no guarantee they're the actual people they need to be to see those ambitions through. It frustrates both them and the audience, and we want to reach through the screen and fix things for them, but giving up that sort of direct influence over peoples' lives is an important part of respecting them as individuals. The hard part is whether this sort of sleight of hand works for the reader, knowing full well that the Candy universe is just as much a written storyline as the Meat one. They aren't actually free of the hand of narrative, and in fact their story very much is still trying to make a point - a point that ties into and complements the main storyline, even. How are we supposed to let go of the desire to see Dave progress or have someone help him, when we know his story is still in the hands of an author choosing to prevent this to make their point to us, the audience? I think that's part of why Candy isn't just "The bad timeline where everything ends poorly", it's a carefully-crafted mixed bag. Kanaya and Rose, certainly, have a happy ending, even if they're caught in a struggle with a fascist government. Karkat's love life isn't perfect but he's grown into the leader he always could be, given the need. Roxy's been going on her own self-actualizing journey, and helps John see their lives more for what they are and less for what they're supposed to be, which is what all these other twists and ticks are getting at. Their lives aren't everything they could've been, but at least they're theirs to make of what they can.
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May 1, 2019 21:55
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Dolash posted:It does seem tricky that respecting autonomy means not interfering with Dave's journey toward self-actualization (Jade trying to force the issue, Dirk's narrative manipulation), but the only times Dave seems to actually get over that hurdle and make progress is with the help of outside perspective (merging with Nepeta, becoming Ultimate Dave). But that's where the true horror of candy comes in: There lives aren't their own and they're still stuck in a story that serves the purposes of an unseen and malevolent higher power. The world is structured in such a way that the mere act of accepting your lot and trying to be happy passively enables unimaginable acts of cruelty. About a million years ago I posted in this thread about how people often stop trying to fight against an unjust system once they find a way to live happily within it (or possibly even discovering that the injustice benefits them in some way and then it becomes "not so bad") and Candy is a continuation of that theme. One Rose has found a way to be happy, so from her point of view it's perfectly fine that another Rose dies and is now enslaved by an evil prince. Things worked out (for the moment) and thus a larger reexamination of reality isn't needed (until the next time the system decides to personally screw her over as it has so many times in the past. Yet she never seems to see it coming, once things start going good for a bit she just goes "I guess everything will be awesome forever!" and then BAM she ends up with deadly timeline headaches or as a double sprite or some new horrible nonsense.). John was right that something is wrong with the world, but right for the wrong reasons. He didn't make a wrong choice (both choices clearly exist simultaneously), he's not the sole reason the world is messed up, but it is indeed messed up and needs to be changed, but everyone is too caught up in their own petty bullshit and crippling personality flaws to work together to find a way to change it.
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May 1, 2019 23:13
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It's not actually anybody in Candy's responsibility to do poo poo about the Dirk over in Meat unless they decide it is.
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May 1, 2019 23:18
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Rand Brittain posted:It's not actually anybody in Candy's responsibility to do poo poo about the Dirk over in Meat unless they decide it is. Yeah, and it's not anyone's personal responsibility in the real world to do something about climate change or take steps to end poverty, but the world is still a better place when we do those things and if we ignore them forever a lot of people will die even if we are never personally effected.
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May 1, 2019 23:24
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Yeah, and it's not anyone's personal responsibility in the real world to do something about climate change or take steps to end poverty, but the world is still a better place when we do those things and if we ignore them forever a lot of people will die even if we are never personally effected. I think the analogy extends out- individuals doing something about poverty or climate change does dick all, when most of both are being caused by actors hoarding most of the resources at the top of the power structure
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May 1, 2019 23:28
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Peanut Butler posted:I think the analogy extends out- individuals doing something about poverty or climate change does dick all, when most of both are being caused by actors hoarding most of the resources at the top of the power structure Which is why just one person trying to change it is doomed to fail. John's extensional dread over his own failings in Candy were futile because he was looking only at his perceived failings and not the larger issues at hand. It's never just one person's fault, and it's never just one person who has the ability to fix things. It takes a lot of people and a lot of teamwork to change a single society, let alone the rules of reality itself, but it can be done. I mean, hypothetically. When you're not too distracted by your own petty bullshit or crippling personality flaws to do so, something John's generation has utterly failed to accomplish. I guess it's up to the next generation (Harry Dean Anderson, Vriska 2.0, Tavros Crocker, and whatever poor alien species Ultimate Dirk ends up adopting) to try and break the cycle of cruelty and change things in a meaningful way (possibly by killing God JRPG style). Space Cadet Omoly fucked around with this message at 23:53 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 23:41
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yeah that's an interesting throughline, hadn't thought about HOMESTUCK: TNG tbh this epilogue seems designed to give Viz a lot of room with different associated properties, and that's not in itself a bad thing it also seems designed to bait fanfic alt-histories named after different foods
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May 2, 2019 00:13
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im just glad everyone realizes how garbage dirk is, a good time to be alive
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May 2, 2019 01:11
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homes tuck.... good... ????
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May 2, 2019 01:11
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I guess it's up to the next generation (Harry Dean Anderson, Vriska 2.0, Tavros Crocker, and whatever poor alien species Ultimate Dirk ends up adopting) Swifer Eggmop.
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May 2, 2019 02:01
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I just remember TErezi calling John "adorastupid" at some point and I thought it was funny.
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May 2, 2019 04:56
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I guess it's up to the next generation (Harry Dean Anderson, Vriska 2.0, Tavros Crocker, and whatever poor alien species Ultimate Dirk ends up adopting) to try and break the cycle of cruelty and change things in a meaningful way (possibly by killing God JRPG style).
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May 2, 2019 05:16
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Rand Brittain posted:It's not actually anybody in Candy's responsibility to do poo poo about the Dirk over in Meat unless they decide it is. How many of them are even aware of it, though. Like I don't recall Candy-side Rose having been presented the opportunity to fight the power of an evil narrator and going "nah, fygm." She was aware of "something" happening to potentially make their timeline become, like, conceptually bullshit, tried to mobilize John to deal with it since he was capable of that, but when he chose not to, from her perspective whatever was bothering her was no longer even discernible. That wasn't a choice she made, it's just a thing that happened to her. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 05:21 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 05:17
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Rand Brittain posted:It's not actually anybody in Candy's responsibility to do poo poo about the Dirk over in Meat unless they decide it is. i think there's some significance to Terezi being manipulated by Dirk into joining his party bus to bullshit space or whatever with a direct line to Vriska existing as a "pocket of insolence" on her person
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May 2, 2019 06:14
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I assumed Dirk was collecting "genetically superior" DNA -- Rose, himself, dead John, dead Jade -- for the genetics machine. Oh Lord, so he's literally going to be the father to a whole new generation of humans? That's super gross, but it also 100% sounds like something Dirk would do so you're probably right. I'm sure he'll raise them with the same care and competence with which he raised Dave.
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May 2, 2019 06:17
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paranoid randroid posted:i think there's some significance to Terezi being manipulated by Dirk into joining his party bus to bullshit space or whatever with a direct line to Vriska existing as a "pocket of insolence" on her person Well, if nothing else, she's a Seer of Mind who already has a bunch of memories from an alternate self. So, that probably puts her closer to the Ultimate Self And Now I Can Narrate bullshit than anyone else but Dirk and Rose. Could just be the most useful way he thought of to take potential competition off the board.
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May 2, 2019 06:58
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I just heard a rumor that some files were found on Steam that imply Hiveswap Act 2 will be out sometime in May. I strongly suspect Plombar already knew this and that's why they tried to bait some sucker into saying "Hiveswap Act 2 will never come out". If I recall someone took that bait, and thus shall soon be made a fool. Speaking of potentially upcoming content that may or may not actually exist: if there is a hypothetical third Pumpkin epilogue, when would be the best time to release it? I'm thinking either 11/11 or right on Halloween.
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May 2, 2019 07:29
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but will it make hives swapped anything more than cute but forgettable
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May 2, 2019 07:35
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I had/have absolutely no idea what's going on with Hiveswap Act 2. All I know is that between Act 7, the book series, Hiveswap Act 1, and most recently the epilogues, this thread has an utterly astounding .000 batting average when it comes to predictions of things never coming out. I was hoping we could keep the streak alive, but it would sound disingenuous if I was the one that did it.
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May 2, 2019 07:35
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this is the strangest defense of hiveswap production i have ever seen! "it only took five years and over 2.5 million dollars but we finally got one quarter of what was promised! take that, naysayers!"
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May 2, 2019 07:40
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Clawtopsy posted:but will it make hives swapped anything more than cute but forgettable I haven't actually even played Hiveswap Act 1 at this point so I have no idea what the quality will be like, just that it'll probably exist soon. Plom Bar posted:I had/have absolutely no idea what's going on with Hiveswap Act 2. All I know is that between Act 7, the book series, Hiveswap Act 1, and most recently the epilogues, this thread has an utterly astounding .000 batting average when it comes to predictions of things never coming out. I was hoping we could keep the streak alive, but it would sound disingenuous if I was the one that did it. Well, my extremely sketchy sources could be wrong on this, but still the chances are more than zero right now.
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May 2, 2019 07:47
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Sometimes I imagine the number of people whomst've died before receiving their Kickstarter rewards
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May 2, 2019 07:57
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Clawtopsy posted:this is the strangest defense of hiveswap production i have ever seen! "it only took five years and over 2.5 million dollars but we finally got one quarter of what was promised! take that, naysayers!" They did put out something, which a lot of you definitively declared would not happen. S'all I'm saying.
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May 2, 2019 08:04
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