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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:Followed up on this and it's still for sale. I've emailed them asking what's up. I assume they have boxes of these things lying around that they're probably hoping to push out the door before they change their mould or printable file or whatever, did the mental math and determined that making money off of questionable nazi poo poo is preferable to whatever loss they'd incur from throwing it away and printing more. I don't know, GSW doesn't seem like a huge operation and I'd be surprised if it took them long to shift the inventory of a single roller like this. Now that I think about it they never got back to me about offering a replacement either, which might be a good angle to prod them over. I can also say they didn't get around to responding to me until we addressed them in public on Twitter. Deified Data fucked around with this message at 21:20 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 21:17
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Numlock posted:The big mistake Gundam made IMHO was making sure Zeon got the cool looking robots while the Federation was stuck with generic looking robo-samurai painted up like circus clowns. Yeah I get that producing tons of a standardized thing makes way more sense but it’s a cartoon, you don’t have to be realistic. This is specifically because Gundam, like many cartoons, was funded to sell toys and in the 1970s you just. Didn’t make toys of the bad guys so the actual designers weren’t restricted in designing the Zeon suits like they were with the Gun Trio.
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May 1, 2019 21:28
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Deified Data posted:I assume they have boxes of these things lying around that they're probably hoping to push out the door before they change their mould or printable file or whatever, did the mental math and determined that making money off of questionable nazi poo poo is preferable to whatever loss they'd incur from throwing it away and printing more. I have that roller, I just usually cover up that symbol with a little bit of sand or something.
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May 1, 2019 23:12
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Numlock posted:The big mistake Gundam made IMHO was making sure Zeon got the cool looking robots while the Federation was stuck with generic looking robo-samurai painted up like circus clowns. That might just be a cultural thing? The Federation mecha are painted up like an IJA/IJN fighter plane. That probably resonates more with a Japanese audience than it does a western one.
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May 1, 2019 23:13
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I always thought, what with the Gundam being a pretty clear nuke analogue, that the red white & blue Gundam paint job was in part a reference to the USA.
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May 1, 2019 23:19
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evol262 posted:EC seem to be pretty clear analogues to the Byzantines under the Macedonian Renaissance to me, down to color scheme, iconography, Greek naming, but it's not a blatant lift like the Thousand Sons I suppose it's still appropriation even if I have no idea what they're appropriating from. spectralent posted:Tau are vaguely space-PRC, or generically space "asia", but even then there's not that much too it. They're pseudo-communist ciphers, had warring states, and have an elemental aesthetic that includes lots of references to waves, but the degree to which they're space-japan always seems massively overexaggerated to me (not uncommonly as an excuse to do "hilarious" Japanese accents or to portray tau women as harem-bait anime girls). They were made in response to anime exploding in popularity in the US.
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May 1, 2019 23:53
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I didn't follow warhammer stuff at all when tau were new and I still somehow heard at length about how they were animes.
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May 2, 2019 00:01
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Tau are basically space imperial British. Edit: everything in 40k is British if you dig enough.
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May 2, 2019 00:14
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I remember so many nerds whining about tau animes and after a quick google I can conclude without a shadow of a doubt that I'm loving old.
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May 2, 2019 00:41
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there’s obviously a Japanese aesthetic to the tau but sociopolitically they are Plato’s Republic and geopolitically they’re the United States circa 1915
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May 2, 2019 01:19
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:there’s obviously a Japanese aesthetic to the tau but sociopolitically they are Plato’s Republic and geopolitically they’re the United States circa 1915 Explain. Also in 40k, as a model hobby, aesthetics is like 80% of perception and fluff is the rest.
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May 2, 2019 01:44
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Cessna posted:Now, does that make MMP fascists? No. But it makes one of their owners an rear end in a top hat, and it leads me to suspect that they aren't exactly rushing to reevaluate the relative prowess of the Soviet Army and Waffen SS. Somewhat tangentially, but I looked through the campaign module A Bridge Too Far from 1999, which depicts the battle for the Arnhem bridge between the SS and British Airborne, and they did apparently change a few things up to match a slightly more modern understanding of the Waffen-SS: the SS doesn't have bullshit super-ELR (instead they use the regular German 1944 ELR without special rules) and there's an expanded set of counters that represents a wider range of SS units, one of which is an Elite 4-4-78. (Compare to your average Soviet counter, a 4-4-77.) Sadly, they're still keeping the bullshit super-Elite 6-5-89 counters around and they form the bulk of the German forces at Arnhem, but I don't know, I think it's a good thing that people are willing to look at the assumptions of ASL and go "no, wait, actually, super-ELR is wrong and the Waffen-SS weren't superhumans, some SS can be accurately represented as basically standard troops." Maybe, one day, they'll do it properly and make the SS regulars into 4-4-76, like they deserve to be. 
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May 2, 2019 03:01
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Joe Slowboat posted:I always thought, what with the Gundam being a pretty clear nuke analogue, that the red white & blue Gundam paint job was in part a reference to the USA. IIRC, Tomino wanted the Gundam to be white/grayscale because it was a pre-production testbed mobile suit, along the lines of the Guncannon and Guntank in the Origins OVA. The blue, red, and white scheme of the Gundam was a production decision by Bandai because they didn't want to sell toys with simple, muted color schemes. That was also the force behind some of the other color schemes and weirder mobile armor designs in the original MSG series. UC Gundam is a fascinating setting. At its core, it is serious speculative fiction in response to WWII; an anti-war tale created by by those too young to have directly experienced (or at least remember) it but still profoundly affected by the war and its aftermath. It's an exploration of the creators' complicated thoughts and feelings about their nation's history over the past century and more generally about with the responsibilities and culpability of individuals within the institutions of imperialist/expansionist states. The creators don't shy away from having their imperial Japan analogue as the definitive bad guys in the setting, but the Federation is basically the US/Britain/France in east Asia and is only "good" in comparison to Zeon/imperial Japan. But they also needed funding to get it made, so the somber, hard(-ish, still had mechs and newtypes) scifi space opera about the horrors of war and imperialism got injected with a merchandise deal, a bunch of bright colors, mecha-monsters of the week, and Haro to secure that money. This blending actually worked and now, 40 years later, it's one of the largest, most commercialized media franchises in the world.
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May 2, 2019 06:13
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I suppose it's still appropriation even if I have no idea what they're appropriating from. I mean the question then is "what is appropriation" because it's a lot more complicated than just saying "thing X takes inspiration from thing Y." For me, it comes down to what the relationship between things X and Y is, putting other factors aside. Like, let's take East Rome/Byzantium vs. Mongolia, i.e. Emperor's Children vs. White Scars. For the former pair I'd call it inspiration. Byzantium is part of a shared European past which the designers can fairly lay claim to. It's definitely not straightforward, since the rest of Europe has a complex relationship with the Byzantine Empire, but broadly there's a ton of shared cultural markers there which it's more or less appropriate to use. It's also not just a straight lift - there's a design language there, but there's also at least as much focus on the totally alien 40k bits like Slaanesh and Fulgrim's personality and pursuit of perfection, and the whole Noise Marine aspect. Their characters aren't just "because they're Byzantine lifts, they're like this." The latter is more like appropriation. White Scars are Space Mongols riding Space Mongol Bikes in Space Mongol Hordes in Space. They have very little characterisation that isn't "outsider's look at Mongol things." And there is way less of a cultural relationship between Europe and the Mongol Empire, and what there is is basically antagonistic. Even taking a basically positive spin on it like GW does, you end up with noble savages who are good and pure and good at war and they all fight and act like this. It's a difficult balance to get right because you obviously don't want to just say "ignore all non-white cultures," but if you're gonna do it, it needs a lot more nuance than it's typically given.
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May 2, 2019 07:03
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food court bailiff posted:I have ASL Starter Kit #1 literally in the mail as of two hours ago and while I know there's a pretty huge wargaming scene within an hour of here (First Minnesota Historical Wargame Society) I'm suddenly full of trepidation about actually trying to play it with people instead of just soloing stuff in my garage. The First MN folks I've interacted with have all been real cool. The X-wing, Armada, Legion, and Infinity communities in the Twin Cities are great too.
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May 2, 2019 07:39
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:They were made in response to anime exploding in popularity in the US. Then I don't think they did a very good job of it, and in any case, mecha are now a ubiquitous sci fi element.
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May 2, 2019 07:57
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spectralent posted:Then I don't think they did a very good job of it, and in any case, mecha are now a ubiquitous sci fi element. The Tau in 3rd edition were 100% anime inspired.
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May 2, 2019 08:11
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spectralent posted:Then I don't think they did a very good job of it, and in any case, mecha are now a ubiquitous sci fi element. Lol what is it about this particular hill that makes people so ready to die on it
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May 2, 2019 08:34
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JBP posted:The Tau in 3rd edition were 100% anime inspired. Then maybe that's the issue since I don't really remember them from that time. Corrode posted:Lol what is it about this particular hill that makes people so ready to die on it I didn't know it was a hot-button, but I do know they don't seem very anime and that people love to assert they're very anime to do the racist voice about them which sours a guy on the whole concept.
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May 2, 2019 09:02
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JBP posted:I remember so many nerds whining about tau animes and after a quick google I can conclude without a shadow of a doubt that I'm loving old. I’m still mad they gave necrons a personality instead of a total of three different sculpts.
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May 2, 2019 09:05
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Solemn Sloth posted:I’m still mad they gave necrons a personality instead of a total of three different sculpts. Necrons having a personality is actually one of the things I really, really liked. I have no idea why I used to think they were cool; there's already a faceless horde in the game and that's the tyranids.
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May 2, 2019 09:07
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spectralent posted:I didn't know it was a hot-button, but I do know they don't seem very anime and that people love to assert they're very anime to do the racist voice about them which sours a guy on the whole concept. Codex:Tau came out in 2001. Twenty years ago, they were very anime.
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May 2, 2019 09:15
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I'm pretty sure Tau in DOW1 have stupid "generic Asian" accents as well.Solemn Sloth posted:I’m still mad they gave necrons a personality instead of a total of three different sculpts. This isn't a popular take but I'm glad the Tomb Kings live on in 40k JBP fucked around with this message at 09:29 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 09:26
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Liquid Communism posted:Codex:Tau came out in 2001. Twenty years ago, they were very anime. Is that a thing that got downplayed, then? I think I missed Tau coming out, it sounds like, but the main things I can see are the mechs, and the fact that Farsight is basically Char. You could at a stretch take the elemental themed naming as being vaguely referential to pop-culture "eastern mysticism", but those seem to be the main things, and they don't scream space Japan as much as the Craftworld Eldar do (what with being a faction with warrior-aesthetics and nobles, logogram writing, three variants of ninja, mechs that're powered by ghosts, and having a main gun that fires shurikens). Tau have always been primarily identified as space-communists, to me, which is why I've always found it bizarre that Tau alone were identified with anime, distinct from the rest of 40k.
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May 2, 2019 09:34
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Preem Palver posted:
I mean one of the recurring elements is that the Earth Federation loving sucks and largely gets away with it because most of the time the other guys are straight up trying to commit genocide. And even then they've been too willing to let said genocides happen. To tie this into tradgames I've been toying with running a UC based campaign for people unfamiliar with it and kinda getting into the weeds of Zeon starting from a very legitimate grievance and being hijacked by fascists.
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May 2, 2019 09:51
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Senile Egyptian robot skeletons in space owns, hth.
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May 2, 2019 10:50
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The Tau are very recognizably Anime That Anime Fans in 2000s Would Be Into with a lot of distinctly Gundam touches (just look at the body of the crisis suits) and a focus on robotics, drones, and optics that invoke a lot of Ghost in the Shell type stuff. Whereas the Eldar are exactly the same... for the 80s and early 90s sci-fi anime. Seriously, compare the look of early Craftworld Eldar stuff to the backgrounds and tech of, specifically, Dominion Tank Police. The weird organic lines, bubble windows, and inset gribbles are very close, it's like an Elfication of that look. As the line progressed through the 90s they got an infusion of Evangelion too. You can almost boil it down to the Tau and Eldar represent dipping in on the works of Masemune Shirow from different time periods.
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May 2, 2019 11:01
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I originally liked Eldar because of those wraithbone arches and stuff. They were like Japanese elves. I was eight.
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May 2, 2019 11:04
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 Pict Capture of Tau Broadside suit engaging Imperial Forces.
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May 2, 2019 12:09
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spectralent posted:Necrons having a personality is actually one of the things I really, really liked. I have no idea why I used to think they were cool; there's already a faceless horde in the game and that's the tyranids. I liked the idea of Necrons having a varying level of functionality. I forgot which rulebook it was but in one edition some Tomb Worlds were so messed up that they sent out the same raiding party to the same world at regular intervals with such precision that the Imperium turned it into a training program.
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May 2, 2019 12:23
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I think Tau are a really good example of starting from a place of obvious inspiration, and fleshing it out over time. Tau today are still very much a mecha army, but also a very 40k race. Then again, I've always thought the pissing and moaning about putting anime in 40k was at the very least coming from a kernal of reactionary xenophobia, if not outright racism. Like the general internet attitude to anime as a whole at the time (which still persists to some degree now), wherein an entire medium of art was dismissed as being the worst products in that medium through sheer ignorance. Certainly there's no validity to claiming Tau don't aesthetically or thematically fit into 40k. And yeah, Necrons having varying levels of functionallity, sanity, and in some cases being totally under rogue AI control, is genius. They have so much scope for assigning motivations depending on the player's taste. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 12:33 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 12:28
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Like the general internet attitude to anime as a whole at the time (which still persists to some degree now), wherein an entire medium of art was dismissed as being the worst products in that medium through sheer ignorance. This had more to do with the perception of anime fans in 2001 than with any sincere anti-Japanese sentiment, though. The worst products were openly lauded online and IRL anime was defined by with weird hardcore porn, barely-not pedophilia, or meeting an awkward otaku crusader-fettishist.
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May 2, 2019 12:52
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I thought anime was well and truly accepted in the 90s with Nintendo to thank by and large. It was only in the thousands that the internet started to deliver the weird poo poo and spawned the anime hater clans. E: like the west was whole heartedly knocking off anime in the early 90s at least, samurai pizza cats springs to mind EE: Actually I remember the cd rips of weird anime in the late 90s, but that also came with Evangelion mania. JBP fucked around with this message at 13:00 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 12:57
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I firmly remember being creeped on in the back of a Suncoast in the early 2000s. Anime may have been more normalized, but its that guys were still brand ambassadors until the DBZ kids grew up and replaced him.
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May 2, 2019 13:02
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moths posted:This had more to do with the perception of anime fans in 2001 than with any sincere anti-Japanese sentiment, though. The worst products were openly lauded online and IRL anime was defined by with weird hardcore porn, barely-not pedophilia, or meeting an awkward otaku crusader-fettishist. What's changed 
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May 2, 2019 13:03
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open_sketchbook posted:Old anime. Maaan, i miss that style so much, baggy pants and all.
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May 2, 2019 14:16
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I think Tau are a really good example of starting from a place of obvious inspiration, and fleshing it out over time. Tau today are still very much a mecha army, but also a very 40k race. I'm not an anime fan (I don't hate it, but I don't seek it out either) and I'm not really interested in mecha/walking tanks. But I recently started a Tau army anyway because I like the look of the Devilfish and their infantry. I'm painting them in a "historicals" style, sort of inspired by the US Army in Vietnam. Drab green, open hatches, door gunners, jungle basing.
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May 2, 2019 14:26
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Cessna posted:I'm painting them in a "historicals" style, sort of inspired by the US Army in Vietnam. Drab green, open hatches, door gunners, jungle basing. This sounds extremely cool. Got any pics?
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May 2, 2019 14:29
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One of the weirder bits of Tau lore that I've always liked is the fact that most of their infantry teams are group marriages. There's even a special upgrade you can buy to represent this that, IIRC, gives them a leadership bonus.
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May 2, 2019 14:32
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Drone posted:This sounds extremely cool. Got any pics? They're a work in progress. I've got a base coat on the infantry and I'm working on the interiors of the Devilfish. I'll take pictures when they're done, thanks for the encouragement!
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May 2, 2019 14:34
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