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Discendo Vox posted:We've discussed these two sources before, of course. Believing in International law is for babies. Seriously that's like believing in the tooth fairy except the tooth fairy is way more believable because I always got my .50$ when i shoved a tooth under my pillow. You might as well be arguing about the laws of Azeroth.
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May 2, 2019 05:48
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I mentioned it as a possibility earlier, but I guess Guaido is, in fact, calling for a strike.quote:Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó has called for an escalating series of strikes to force President Nicolás Maduro to relinquish power. Is there any indication this will be widespread, or will public employees not risk their jobs?
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May 2, 2019 06:12
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William Bear posted:I mentioned it as a possibility earlier, but I guess Guaido is, in fact, calling for a strike. Last month he had some big meeting with a bunch of Venezuelan labor leaders, although afterwards they just released some platitudinous statements about concern or w/e. With the power outages a lot of work is already grinding to a halt, so it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. Acebuckeye13 posted:Seems like a good article here: I think Trump's inherent cheapness is playing against his desire to score a foreign policy win and look good in Florida. I wonder what kind of cockamamie schemes Bolton has in mind? You can't pull off a regime change with airstrikes, and big action would probably require a major build up. I really have no idea what they could be thinking.
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May 2, 2019 07:19
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Discendo Vox posted:We've discussed these two sources before, of course. Has there been any situation post WW2 where the USA wanted to do X but then didn't because the international community told them no? The USA pretty famously doesn't give a poo poo what the UN thinks or does. John Bolton has been trash talking it as an organization since before the Iraq war. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 08:00 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 07:57
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E: nvm
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May 2, 2019 08:10
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Bolton is so stunningly incompetent that it's not impossible you could argue in the future that his attempted manipulations of the Venezuela situation actually managed to keep Maduro in power longer than if he had done nothing at all.
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May 2, 2019 09:26
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Who would have thought that a time traveling Prussian Junker might not be good at NotWar. Just an obscenely mustachio'd ork.
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May 2, 2019 09:32
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Moridin920 posted:Has there been any situation post WW2 where the USA wanted to do X but then didn't because the international community told them no? Since... I dunno.... the Treaty of Westphalia?.... states basically agreed to recognize each other and follow some basic rules. ( I agree the US has a strong streak of ignoring most international law when it sees fit, but let's skip that for the present.) Governments recognize each other. Sometimes recognition is withheld (Arab League vs Israel, PRC vs Taiwan) and sometimes it is changed (again, PRC vs Taiwan) as states decide "well I used to think X was the 'legitimate' government of that country, but for 'reasons' now I think Y is the legitimate government". The point that Kobayashi keeps missing is that unless you simply pretend Venezuela doesn't exist (c.f. Arab League boycott of Israel), then you really can't avoid recognizing *someone* as the proper government of Venezuela. This is needed because Venezuela owns things, companies, bank accounts, embassies, etc. that fall under US legal jurisdiction. I *assume* what Kobayashi wants is the USA to act like Maduro and the PSUV etc are the proper government of VZ and so leave assets as they are. It's just every time someone tries to ask them what they want they just change topic to like "Cuba" or something else random.
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May 2, 2019 09:52
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Has Guaido given up yet or is this fiasco still ongoing? Wonder what brilliant tweets the US administration will come up with today.
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May 2, 2019 11:15
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The DOD follows POTUS lawful orders and all, but for what it’s worth, opening up a new low-intensity conflict right now is about the absolute last thing the Pentagon wants to do for a wide variety of reasons.
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May 2, 2019 13:07
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Plus Donnie loves him a general so hopefully they can overshadow the mustache man.
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May 2, 2019 13:38
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Shaocaholica posted:So at what point do we see Russian and Chinese troops on the ground?
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May 2, 2019 15:45
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https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1123788649697566722
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May 2, 2019 15:51
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Rust Martialis posted:The point that Kobayashi keeps missing is that unless you simply pretend Venezuela doesn't exist (c.f. Arab League boycott of Israel), then you really can't avoid recognizing *someone* as the proper government of Venezuela. This is needed because Venezuela owns things, companies, bank accounts, embassies, etc. that fall under US legal jurisdiction. I *assume* what Kobayashi wants is the USA to act like Maduro and the PSUV etc are the proper government of VZ and so leave assets as they are. It's just every time someone tries to ask them what they want they just change topic to like "Cuba" or something else random. That makes sense then I suppose. Why can't the US just freeze those assets until there is a clear leader again?
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May 2, 2019 17:34
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Moridin920 posted:That makes sense then I suppose. Why can't the US just freeze those assets until there is a clear leader again? Because Trump and Bolton and Rubio, to mention the obvious.
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May 2, 2019 18:11
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There have already been about 100 Russian troops in Venezuela since March.
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May 2, 2019 18:21
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Discendo Vox posted:(and yes, it's garbage) I’ll take it, thanks. Rust Martialis posted:The point that Kobayashi keeps missing is that unless you simply pretend Venezuela doesn't exist (c.f. Arab League boycott of Israel), then you really can't avoid recognizing *someone* as the proper government of Venezuela. This is needed because Venezuela owns things, companies, bank accounts, embassies, etc. that fall under US legal jurisdiction. I *assume* what Kobayashi wants is the USA to act like Maduro and the PSUV etc are the proper government of VZ and so leave assets as they are. It's just every time someone tries to ask them what they want they just change topic to like "Cuba" or something else random. Basically yes, but for perhaps different reasons than you’d expect. Notice that you can’t really separate the capitalism from the imperialism here. You keep resorting to moralistic urgency as the reason why “doing nothing” is unacceptable, even though that is exactly what a free market ideology demands. From there you appeal to “international law” and the abstract complexity of “international relations” as reasons why the US must and indeed has no choice but to impose economic sanctions without ever really addressing how and why it is that the US is somehow always right and always acting “legally.” Worse, the fact that the sitting US president threatened to gently caress over the Cuban people over all this is dismissed as “changing the subject.” My position is pretty simple, I don’t want the Trump administration or any future administration to do jack poo poo about Venezuela, I want the end of US imperialism more broadly, and I want the end of capitalism in general.
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May 2, 2019 19:31
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Discendo Vox posted:We've discussed these two sources before, of course. yeah we can only trust reputable sources that have no history of promoting US imperialism like the NYT
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May 2, 2019 19:50
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AGGGGH BEES posted:There have already been about 100 Russian troops in Venezuela since March. Not sure what they could possibly do other than emergency evac for Maduro and friends or maybe to scuttle the secret Russian super weapon there.
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May 2, 2019 19:54
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Re international law, https://twitter.com/anyaparampil/status/1123992552590409730
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May 2, 2019 20:15
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Like aren't embassies specifically not under the jurisdiction of the country in which they are located? Isn't that the whole Thing? Like ok the US can say "well look we gotta pick who owns these bank accounts right" but that's a bit different than "we are going to force people out of a foreign embassy." Mostly it's just wild to me that the USA does whatever the hell it wants while everyone else has to play ball. It's like playing handball in elementary school except the rich kid says the ball is his so he gets special rules and if you don't think that's fair then tough because he's also been kept a couple grades back and will beat your rear end if you complain too much. Rust Martialis posted:( I agree the US has a strong streak of ignoring most international law when it sees fit, but let's skip that for the present.) Like this is fine for an academic discussion and all but it does actually matter in the context of current events. If the premise is that Guaido will be better than Maduro then I have to take into account the US' involvement with Guaido and the opposition and take past events where the USA was similarly involved into account also. These events aren't existing in a vacuum. I see masses of people out in the streets that are ostensibly pro Maduro and meanwhile some military strategy masters think it'll be a quick and easy wham bam replace govt be back by Christmas affair? My god it'll be a bloodbath. Is it really that important that the US keeps turning the screw?? Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 20:18
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True international law is simply "might makes right". The international law that Discendo Vox is a fan of is at best a set of very rarely respected ideals and at worst another bludgeon stronger nations use to abuse weaker ones.
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May 2, 2019 20:29
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Shaocaholica posted:Not sure what they could possibly do other than emergency evac for Maduro and friends or maybe to scuttle the secret Russian super weapon there. They're likely there as tripwires, ie: to deter U.S. military action so that we don't risk a war with Russia.
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May 2, 2019 20:37
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Majorian posted:They're likely there as tripwires, ie: to deter U.S. military action so that we don't risk a war with Russia. Lol imagine the pep speech they got. “Troimp is friend. He would not hurt you comrade. Be safe. Dasvidania!”
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May 2, 2019 20:40
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What Twitter accounts are y'all following for info about what's going on?
Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 20:45 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 20:40
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Mordin, here are some questions for you 1. Who is currently in the embassy? 2. Who was in the embassy previously? 3. How does the US determine who has legal control of assets held by a foreign state? 4. What is an embassy? 5. What did the US actually do with regard to the Venezuelan consulates and embassy? 6. What's the source you're citing here? 7. How are other sources covering the same events? 8. Is there corroboration for the specific claims made by the source you're using? 9. What does this source's profile image depict?
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May 2, 2019 20:46
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Shaocaholica posted:Lol imagine the pep speech they got. “Troimp is friend. He would not hurt you comrade. Be safe. Dasvidania!” Yeah I’m sure those Russian soldiers were specifically talking about their best friend Trump bringing glory to the Soviets or whatever you’re implying here, and this isn’t just a bizarrely Russophobic fantasy you’ve decided to post here for ??? reasons
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May 2, 2019 20:49
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Shaocaholica posted:Lol imagine the pep speech they got. “Troimp is friend. He would not hurt you comrade. Be safe. Dasvidania!” LOL, I expect it was more along the lines of, "The U.S. are paper tigers, they don't have the balls to risk a war over Venezuela." Hopefully they're right!
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May 2, 2019 20:51
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Discendo Vox posted:Mordin, here are some questions for you we should ask the venezuelan supreme court these questions
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May 2, 2019 20:53
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Discendo Vox posted:6. What's the source you're citing here? Do you have any proof that she lacks journalistic integrity and just goes about making easily falsifiable lies like this? It's not enough to say she works for RT, I have seen plenty of legitimate reporting from them, show me an example of actual wrongdoing. You seem to only think that journalists part of the capitalist establishment are acceptable sources. Well how convenient for the capitalist establishment.
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May 2, 2019 21:15
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Zidrooner posted:Do you have any proof that she lacks journalistic integrity and just goes about making easily falsifiable lies like this? It's not enough to say she works for RT, I have seen plenty of legitimate reporting from them, show me an example of actual wrongdoing. You seem to only think that journalists part of the capitalist establishment are acceptable sources. Well how convenient for the capitalist establishment.
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May 2, 2019 21:17
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Discendo Vox posted:Mordin, here are some questions for you Lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 2, 2019 21:20
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Rent-A-Cop posted:RT is now part of the socialist international apparently? No but Anya seems like an anti-establishment journalist to me.
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May 2, 2019 21:22
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Discendo Vox posted:Mordin, here are some questions for you Excuse me professor will all of this be on the exam?
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May 2, 2019 21:22
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Kobayashi posted:Basically yes, but for perhaps different reasons than you’d expect. Notice that you can’t really separate the capitalism from the imperialism here. You keep resorting to moralistic urgency as the reason why “doing nothing” is unacceptable, even though that is exactly what a free market ideology demands. No, I am discussing issues of inter-state relations, which nobody but you seems to have a problem grasping. Neither an appeal to morality nor free markets was made - a socialist government would face the same issues. Are you possibly suffering from an undiagnosed dissociative disorder? quote:From there you appeal to “international law” and the abstract complexity of “international relations” as reasons why the US must and indeed has no choice but to impose economic sanctions without ever really addressing how and why it is that the US is somehow always right and always acting “legally.” Worse, the fact that the sitting US president threatened to gently caress over the Cuban people over all this is dismissed as “changing the subject.” The last paragraph is the only thing you've written that actually makes any sense.
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May 2, 2019 21:36
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Discendo Vox posted:9. What does this source's profile image depict?  Fox News, the notoriously pro-maduro news channel. It's cool how the pro-interventionist people blacklist anti-intervionists from their channels and papers and then accuse them of supporting the other garbage pile news networks they're forced to go on. You're a little bitch DV. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 2, 2019 22:11
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https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1124051186989064192 The Gusano king is displeased with the coups progress. Better hurry up before he snitches on you!
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May 2, 2019 22:20
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my initial response was "lol embassy protectors" but uh how DO you handle a dispute over embassy control anyway What if the tables were turned and Team MUD were holed up in the embassy (the ambassador flipped sides and had the locks changed in the middle of the night or whatever)? Would the only solution actually be Team PSUV blockading the place or sending in Venezuelan soldiers or cops? What if the US authorities don't particularly want that? The embassy is foreign territory, but couldn't they go "lol no we ain't letting your goons storm it"? SHOULD they, in that universe or in this?
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May 2, 2019 22:20
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It's up to the government to decide who's an ambassador of their government and who isn't. It ain't a loving hard question.
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May 2, 2019 22:22
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I mean I guess the obvious (albeit not 1:1 for sure, Guaido probably isn't going to set up a rump state in the Amazon, nor is Maduro if he gets the boot) precedent is PRC-ROC, how were the embassies handled early on in that? Did the ROC keep their building and the PRC didn't get one until US recognition? now I'm curious about that process even separately from the recognition of Guaido morass
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May 2, 2019 22:29
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