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owning a copy of mein kampf makes you a nazi about as much as owning a copy of the communist manifesto makes my ultra-right-wing fox-news-on-the-tv-24/7 listens-to-rush-limbaugh-everyday father a communist
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May 3, 2019 16:49
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Keeshhound posted:presence of Mein Kampf is not as clear an indicator of his beliefs as some people would like it to be. no but the presence of nazi memorabilia along with him participating in right wing coups is.
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May 3, 2019 16:50
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kumba posted:owning a copy of mein kampf makes you a nazi about as much as owning a copy of the communist manifesto makes my ultra-right-wing fox-news-on-the-tv-24/7 listens-to-rush-limbaugh-everyday father a communist It doesn't make you a Nazi it's just a lovely boring book that's all.
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May 3, 2019 16:51
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Kavros posted:While I'm not exactly inclined to defend or lionize Lopez and will stay pretty neutral on him, I could absolutely say that Mein Kampf, as part of a larger philosophical study of all things involving authoritarian creep and the rise of militant or nationalistic strongman factions in a society, is pretty drat relevant these days and could absolutely be said to be relevant to living in the situation the PSUV has been putting Venezuela through for years. I would actually even find it more relevant if you lived in a country where nativist sectarian populism is steadily eroding legal norms in favor of authoritarian cult of personality figureheads and/or republics steadily disintegrating under the weight of increasingly moblike political factions with no intent on preserving democracy. Like if you happened to live in the United States, for instance. It would make so much sense to have that book in your library as an instructive insight into the gently caress is going on. "search and seizure" of a political activist who was at the head of a failed coup attempt that led to 100 people getting hurt isn't some sort of repression, it would happen in literally any other state in the world. also, lopez is still free, so it's only really searching. and lopez would have been better off reading literally any other autobiography or history if he really wanted to understand what happened in the 1930s. you can't even argue that it is hitler's own account of his rise to power, it was written before the nazis had any sort of serious control of the government.
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May 3, 2019 16:55
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I think a lot of people probably do genuinely think it's his autobiography and that's why they don't understand how while it's not an instant nazi flag it is a completely useless book to own apart from A) genuinely believing in it, or B) wanting a weird dark historical artifact because you're a weird fucker. Like, it's more like owning a copy of The Turner Diaries than anything. No you're not inherently a white supremacist psycho if you do, you could just be a weird bitch like me who collects hosed up manifestos and junk, but if you actually give a poo poo about the book deeper then 'oh...so that's what that book is, this guy was nuts and weird' you probably are a weirdo in the not good way.
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May 3, 2019 16:58
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also while 'owns Hitler's bad book' isn't an instant flag, 'spearheaded a violent right wing coup' probably is and that's why 'lol they found hitler's terrible no good awful book in his house' is funny.
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May 3, 2019 17:00
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kumba posted:owning a copy of mein kampf makes you a nazi about as much as owning a copy of the communist manifesto makes my ultra-right-wing fox-news-on-the-tv-24/7 listens-to-rush-limbaugh-everyday father a communist Your dad should read the Communist Manifesto
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May 3, 2019 17:04
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sexpig by night posted:also while 'owns Hitler's bad book' isn't an instant flag, 'spearheaded a violent right wing coup' probably is and that's why 'lol they found hitler's terrible no good awful book in his house' is funny. Also, a bunch of Nietzsche, that said you need to find some Jung and Heidegger in there if you want to shut the case.
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May 3, 2019 18:04
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Is that a lady in the beige pants or just a guy wearing lady pants?
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May 3, 2019 19:05
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Rust Martialis posted:The last paragraph is the only thing you've written that actually makes any sense. I don't think we're ultimately as far apart on this than you might think. We both recognize that poor Venezuleans are getting hosed over by rich people. Where I think we might differ is that I don't really draw a distinction between rich Americans and the US government or "international law," both of which exist to serve the whims of the former.
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May 3, 2019 21:09
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Ardennes posted:Also, a bunch of Nietzsche, that said you need to find some Jung and Heidegger in there if you want to shut the case. bunch of books by tech bros on 'transforming capitalism' and 'the gig economy'. that whole room must smell like purestrain liberty.
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May 3, 2019 21:26
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From personal experience right reaching people I have known have a copy of Das Kapital while left leaning ones sometimes have mein kampf. Hell, I've had both at home at some point, does that make me half nazi, half communist?
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May 3, 2019 21:53
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just a boring and rote contrarian, since you're neither trying to instigate a coup in latin america, nor are you backed by foreign nationals who truck in white supremacy.
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May 3, 2019 22:04
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Celexi posted:From personal experience right reaching people I have known have a copy of Das Kapital while left leaning ones sometimes have mein kampf. Hell, I've had both at home at some point, does that make me half nazi, half communist? Makes you a dirty centrist that deserves worse than either.
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May 3, 2019 22:20
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Frog Act posted:Yeah I’m sure those Russian soldiers were specifically talking about their best friend Trump bringing glory to the Soviets or whatever you’re implying here, and this isn’t just a bizarrely Russophobic fantasy you’ve decided to post here for ??? reasons https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48141017
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May 4, 2019 00:01
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This is a great look https://twitter.com/apetricca/status/1124156685885378560
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May 4, 2019 00:30
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https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/1124377986428473344?s=20 This sounds irresponsible.
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May 4, 2019 01:03
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Thlom posted:https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/1124377986428473344?s=20 so he's at the failed coup stage of just praying enough of your guys get killed that you can call in help, huh?
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May 4, 2019 01:09
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Discendo Vox posted:If it's just a piece of property it's still a government asset in which case the same sovereignty recognition applies. If the opposition government goes through the legal process of reopening it (which I don't believe they've done yet because of the occupation), then the Article 22 obligation would still apply. I can't tell if it would apply in advance based on the convention, but the protesters' presence on the property would already be unlawful, same as if they occupied some random person's house. here's an expert's opinion https://twitter.com/ActivistEleanor/status/1123999787806875655
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May 4, 2019 02:50
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Her comments require a set of prior assertions about the building's ownership, about the protest, on law enforcement operation obligations, that aren't based on...anything. They don't intersect with the previously cited arguments or claims by the US government or Vecchio in any way. That's your expert legal analysis? A mintpress contributor's video of someone citing no actual laws? I mean, "right-wing fascistic siege mob"? As before, I need you to think about the how and why and what of these messages. You're starting from the conclusions you want to believe and getting fed the messages that will support them. It's leading you to sources and claims that cater to your beliefs, but that are also at odds with reality.
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May 4, 2019 03:09
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Discendo Vox posted:
 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 4, 2019 03:12
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Discendo Vox posted:As before, I need you to think about the how and why and what of these messages. You're starting from the conclusions you want to believe and getting fed the messages that will support them. It's leading you to sources and claims that cater to your beliefs, but that are also at odds with reality. Physician, heal thyself. Discendo Vox posted:So, before we can even start correcting all the other wrong things you say, we'd like you to stop tossing off references to what Guiado is doing as a coup:
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May 4, 2019 03:14
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Discendo Vox posted:That's your expert legal analysis? yes, legal counsel is generally considered expert analysis actually it might be among the oldest varieties of expert analysis ever to exist. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 06:30 on May 4, 2019 |
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May 4, 2019 06:27
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imagine being an absolute demon like Bolton who has been waiting years for a perfect catspaw like Trump who just slaps his fat hands together any time a man in a cool uniform walks in a room, and even he goes 'uh wait are you guys just really loving stupid?' https://twitter.com/RowanKaiser/status/1124424130764398593?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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May 4, 2019 14:34
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https://twitter.com/RealAlexRubi/status/1124486663865077761?s=19
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May 4, 2019 15:15
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Discendo Vox posted:Her comments require a set of prior assertions about the building's ownership, about the protest, on law enforcement operation obligations, that aren't based on...anything. They don't intersect with the previously cited arguments or claims by the US government or Vecchio in any way. That's your expert legal analysis? A mintpress contributor's video of someone citing no actual laws? I mean, "right-wing fascistic siege mob"? Licensed attorneys are legal experts by definition. I'm not versed in law here (neither are you), but I haven't seen any court order regarding any change in the legal status of the embassy or its ownership. All we have is a declaration by the executive branch. I haven't seen anything that indicates anything has actually been done regarding the recognition of the so-called interim government, besides a series of statements made to appease the US State dept. The state department's own website still links to this: http://mppre.gob.ve/en/comunicado/venezuelan-government-announces-ratifies-official-withdrawal-oea-international-community/ That's not the recognized government! What about all those other governments who said, who said, Guaido is the president, and his "Government" is recognized. I guess that means all of Maduro's ambassadors have been replaced, right? No. They haven't been. Look at France, they recognized Guaido, right. Who's the ambassador? It's the same guy as before! Who controls the embassy? Same government! Despite what a handful of public officials have said about diplomatic recognition and blah blah blah, nothing seems to have actually changed.
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May 4, 2019 16:08
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Francisco Toro's new piece on Caracas Chronicles is pretty good. It's about the Codepink occupation, but also more generally about the "These aren't real Veneuzelans!" arguments that we hear so often. Here's a choice bit:quote:You’re right, though, they’re not the ones yelling at you for squatting at the embassy in D.C. The people living with no power, no water, no health care, no communications and no hope for a decent future are not, by and large, on Twitter. The people now struggling to survive on a minimum wage that works out to about a penny an hour don’t speak English as well as we do. The people facing simultaneous outbreaks of malaria, diphtheria, tuberculosis and AIDS don’t live in Washington, or Miami, or Buenos Aires.
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May 4, 2019 21:43
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Chuck Boone posted:Francisco Toro's new piece on Caracas Chronicles is pretty good. It's about the Codepink occupation, but also more generally about the "These aren't real Veneuzelans!" arguments that we hear so often. Here's a choice bit: That doesn't justify the gross racists being shitlords to people at the embassy at all, in any way, to me. "Those of us who’ve left, though, feel a special duty to speak up for them, because they can’t. Facing a government that jails dissidents, steals elections, silences speech and prosecutes dissent at every turn, we know we have a responsibility to speak up." this feels like them trying to represent themselves as actually being the people they're trying to attack, because they're pushing a pro-US backed coup agenda, directly helping a gigantic government that jails dissidents, steals elections, silences speech and prosecutes dissent at every turn.
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May 4, 2019 21:57
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Mischievous Mink posted:That doesn't justify the gross racists being shitlords to people at the embassy at all, in any way, to me. I agree. I've seen a couple of those videos from those people. They are sick. They're not representative of the diaspora community (which now includes over 3 million people). Francisco isn't defending this fringe minority of disgusting people. No one should defend them or justify their words and actions. Mischievous Mink posted:"Those of us who’ve left, though, feel a special duty to speak up for them, because they can’t. Facing a government that jails dissidents, steals elections, silences speech and prosecutes dissent at every turn, we know we have a responsibility to speak up." this feels like them trying to represent themselves as actually being the people they're trying to attack, because they're pushing a pro-US backed coup agenda, directly helping a gigantic government that jails dissidents, steals elections, silences speech and prosecutes dissent at every turn. You're referring to the US government, right? If so, for the nth time, the dreams, wishes and objectives of the Venezuelan people are separate from those of US foreign policy. The overwhelming majority of Venezuelans want to be given the chance to vote in free, fair and transparent elections so that they can actually choose their leaders. That's it. It's a tragedy that the U.S. is so involved in this crisis, but again, that's neither here nor there for the Venezuelan on the ground who just wants a chance to live the kind of life that you I and live.
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May 4, 2019 22:13
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Chuck Boone posted:I agree. I've seen a couple of those videos from those people. They are sick. They're not representative of the diaspora community (which now includes over 3 million people). Francisco isn't defending this fringe minority of disgusting people. No one should defend them or justify their words and actions. I mean, in this specific case they're protesting in the US at an embassy in D.C, how do they think their harassment of the people there is going to do anything to improve the lives of anyone, living in Venezuela or otherwise?
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May 4, 2019 22:23
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Mischievous Mink posted:I mean, in this specific case they're protesting in the US at an embassy in D.C, how do they think their harassment of the people there is going to do anything to improve the lives of anyone, living in Venezuela or otherwise? I don't know? I'm guessing some of those people are there because they're incensed at the Codepink folks and they want to do something to challenge their deeply flawed and harmful narrative. But why focus on that? That's not what the article is about. Francisco's not talking about the handful of Venezuelans at the embassy. He's using that confrontation as a springboard to talk about the diaspora (again, ~3 million people now) in general. He's talking about all of the Venezuelans who've left over the past twenty years in multiple waves of migration. And, perhaps more importantly, he's calling attention to all of the people who haven't left Venezuela. Again, the article's not about the minutia of the embassy confrontation.
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May 4, 2019 22:31
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Chuck Boone posted:Francisco Toro's new piece on Caracas Chronicles is pretty good. It's about the Codepink occupation, but also more generally about the "These aren't real Veneuzelans!" arguments that we hear so often. Here's a choice bit: Expats constantly make the case that is not they, but the poor of Venezuela who hate Maduro the most. And yet, somehow, Maduro's most reliable base of support is... the poor.
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May 4, 2019 22:32
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Mischievous Mink posted:I mean, in this specific case they're protesting in the US at an embassy in D.C, how do they think their harassment of the people there is going to do anything to improve the lives of anyone, living in Venezuela or otherwise? What are the 'embassy protectors' attempting to accomplish with their occupation protest? Presumably they'd like the opposite of that. 1) Guaido's ambassador / emissary would like to move in 2) look, you name a better place in the United States for expats to protest in solidarity against Maduro Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Expats constantly make the case that is not they, but the poor of Venezuela who hate Maduro the most. And yet, somehow, Maduro's most reliable base of support is... the poor. well, a subset of the poor, anyway
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May 4, 2019 22:33
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Expats constantly make the case that is not they, but the poor of Venezuela who hate Maduro the most. And yet, somehow, Maduro's most reliable base of support is... the poor. Really? When's the last time that got tested and demonstrated? Also, are we counting indigenous tribes as poor people? Because they really don't get along with the government.
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May 4, 2019 23:44
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GreyjoyBastard posted:1) Guaido's ambassador / emissary would like to move in I can think of two places that are ideal: 1) Florida at the home of Marco Rubio 2) Staff housing at Harvard School of Economics.
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May 4, 2019 23:48
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You have to realize that is like the least persuasive argument ever, right? Hell, even if I assume it's correct it's still a lovely argument. Appealing to a vast populace that has no voice but is surely in absolute lockstep with your own opinions was a load of poo poo when nixon did it with the silent majority, and it's a load of poo poo right now.Darth Walrus posted:Really? When's the last time that got tested and demonstrated? Also, are we counting indigenous tribes as poor people? Because they really don't get along with the government. For better or for worse, a large portion of the venezuelan population either supports maduro or at least prefers him to the alternative of guaido's opposition, especially with its perceived complicity with the US. Hell, a subset of that portion is motivated enough to take to the streets in support! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 00:48 on May 5, 2019 |
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May 5, 2019 00:46
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A big flaming stink posted:You have to realize that is like the least persuasive argument ever, right? Hell, even if I assume it's correct it's still a lovely argument. Appealing to a vast populace that has no voice but is surely in absolute lockstep with your own opinions was a load of poo poo when nixon did it with the silent majority, and it's a load of poo poo right now. well, sure and in the last fair election Venezuela held, a substantial majority of Venezuelan voters supported the MUD, and in the rigged presidential election at least 30-35% still showed up as opposing Maduro and while I don't know the actual demographic breakdown, I'm getting the impression you don't either (and up to date data might straight up not be accessible at this particular moment)
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May 5, 2019 01:01
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it's also a bad arguement because it assumes that americans should have no say in the foreign policy of their own government. if only "real" venezuelans can have opinions about what goes on in venezuela, why should americans be denied the opportunity to protest their own countries foreign policy? american taxpayer dollars are currently being wasted on this incredibly stupid multi-coup fiasco, and if there is military intervention, more us taxpayer dollars and us lives will be wasted. all of the billions spent on this cia boondoggle could have gone to fixing the roads, or funding schools, or healthcare; why shouldn't us citizens non-violently protest this gross mis-allocation of funds?
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May 5, 2019 01:06
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GreyjoyBastard posted:well, sure Of course I don't know it! None of us do, that's what I'm getting at! It's one thing to say that Maduro is likely extremely unpopular at the moment, it's a whole nother thing to say that the population supports his outright removal via any means necessary, especially when those "means" include meddling by the Trump administration and Elliott loving Abrams! seriously greyjoy, where are you going with this? You've read a billion arguments like mine in this thread and in Cspam, and you don't appear to be a moron most of the time. What do you, honestly, think is more likely to yield the least worst outcome for the venezuelan people? The US stops propping up Guaido, ends the economic sanctions (all of them, even the ones we're mostly sure aren't causing economical malaise) and puts its intervention chubby back in its pants, or the US continues to escalate things for as long as Maduro hold onto power?
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May 5, 2019 01:13
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A big flaming stink posted:You have to realize that is like the least persuasive argument ever, right? Hell, even if I assume it's correct it's still a lovely argument. Appealing to a vast populace that has no voice but is surely in absolute lockstep with your own opinions was a load of poo poo when nixon did it with the silent majority, and it's a load of poo poo right now. Right, and why do you believe that's mainly poor people, to the point where the poor in general are his 'most reliable base of support'? What data do you have that PSUV support does not presently skew richer (or outright skews poorer) than opposition support? That's what Fat-Lip was asserting.
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May 5, 2019 01:32
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