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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Punch-through can be good but it generally only makes sense in the form of Primed Shred on guns that a) have poor fire rates b) gain an extra, special advantage from punch-through beyond just hitting two enemies at once or, ideally, c) both at once. So like the Battacor, the Amprex, and so on. Most of the time if you're taking a weapon that provides excellent single-target DPS and slapping PT on it to better deal with crowds, you'd be better off using one of the many dedicated AoE weapons in the game, which do the same job better and with fewer sacrifices. I guess my objection is to the statement that goons overvalue punchthrough. I agree that most of the time you'd be better served by picking up one of the AoE guns, but for common mission types I feel like that's a true statement, period. You are hardly sacrificing anything at all by using even a basic shred on your average crit gun. Playing around with some builds on warframe builder, I'm using what I think is a fairly standard critgun core not including any especially hard to get mods (Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital Sense, 2x 90 ele, Hunter Munitions), just varying up the last slot between Shred and various other common options. I'm finding most non-basic Shred builds are 1-5% higher DPS. Biggest difference is with Speed Trigger which is about 14% higher. I personally feel that is absolutely worth the tradeoff of doing double damage frequently. If you start to include more and more specialized mods and assuming they're procced (Argon Scope, augments, etc.) maybe not. I didn't do a test build for status since it's harder to quantify. If you're doing status you probably want a shotgun build, and if I'm using a non-Arca Plasmor shotgun it's probably the Tigris P because I really do want to kill one hard target extremely dead, so I would probably agree with you there. metasynthetic fucked around with this message at 21:01 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 20:57
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The burnout aspect of Nightwave comes from the FOMO nature of it. Warframe is usually a game you can just walk away from for a while and everything will be there for you when you come back. Nightwave made people feel like they have to play every single week with no breaks. Which is fine if you play like that anyway, but pretty bad if you'd otherwise like to take a break.
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May 3, 2019 21:01
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khora deluxe looks dope. i've been taking a little bit of a break because i cleared nightwave and i also picked up monster hunter but if they drop some new stuff i'll definitely dip back in.
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May 3, 2019 21:05
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Babe Magnet posted:Flight patterns are getting touched up for the incoming Railjack missions. AI's going to be a lot smarter and they're going to be able to fly much better. Archwing, I assume? This is basically the opposite of what I would want to hear. My number one problem with archwing missions is that they control terribly and I can't tell where enemies are coming from or where they are relative to me, so until they fix that, I really don't need enemies learning to dodge effectively. Number two is that it doesn't feel fun at all to have your archwing unit just straight up replace all the functionality of your warframe. If I'm Nezha with wings, I want to play like Nezha with wings. I don't care about playing as the wings.
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May 3, 2019 21:05
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metasynthetic posted:I guess my objection is to the statement that goons overvalue punchthrough. I agree that most of the time you'd be better served by picking up one of the AoE guns, but for common mission types I feel like that's a true statement, period. Are you comparing burst DPS or sustained DPS? Because the latter is absolutely what you care about when you're talking about whether or not to use fire rate mods (since the thing that makes +fire rate so mediocre is that you end up reloading all the time.) A build like this has 9% higher DPS with Vigilante Armaments than it does with base Shred, in addition to the other functional benefits of higher multishot like status and Hunter Munitions proc chances that don't get reflected directly in the calculator; Primed Shred's DPS is comparable to Vigilante Armaments, but that's a 200-day login reward and by the point you have that, comparing it to a riven (or augments, or acolyte mods, or whatever) seems pretty fair. (And, of course, is no contest.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:20 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 21:15
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The bigger point though is still very much that both of these builds are completely overshadowed for most content in the game by the Ignis Wraith, and the situations where the Ignis Wraith (or something similar) isn't so great are... modes where 9% additional single-target DPS is actually really nice, like in boss fights, Index, or open world bounties where you save yourself a ton of trouble by shooting down dropships.
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May 3, 2019 21:24
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so youre saying i shouldnt use shred on my gorgon? feels weird
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May 3, 2019 21:26
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Awesome! posted:so youre saying i shouldnt use shred on my gorgon? feels weird The Gorgon has spool-up, which means that increased fire rate gets you to full DPS faster. It's a good candidate for Shred / Primed Shred.
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May 3, 2019 21:27
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Sustained. Ultimately, it depends on where you draw the line of course. Vigilante Armaments is probably the best common-mod counterargument, but I personally would have to see a 20% DPS difference before I started considering using something else instead of Shred for normal missions. Grouped enemies are so common, and always playing with punchthrough has trained my play to position myself to maximize it. Edit: Ironically the P Gorgon is the one case where I don't.... because I have a +3.2m +dam +toxic riven for it  it's also -fire rate so I wound up putting in a vile acceleration on it (probably the only use for it I've ever done) in the slot Shred would usually go Edit 2: ok I think I see the difference in reasoning here, which is 'punchthrough is overvalued because the only weapons that can use it have uses exclusive to the meta-tier AOE ones.' Which is true, I've barely touched any primary outside the Plasmor since it came out, except to whip out my P Gorgon for... single hardened target missions. And Rubico P for dolons. I guess my advice is more towards newer players who don't have all the toys in the toy box yet. metasynthetic fucked around with this message at 21:34 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 21:28
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Also just to clear up something I alluded to in passing but didn't explicitly spell out: chain beam weapons (Amprex, Atomos) have a special interaction with punch-through where it makes their beam split into multiple tails, each of which chains through enemies, making it absolutely amazing on those guns because it means that more enemies = more DPS on each of those enemies.
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May 3, 2019 21:33
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DPS doesn't mean much in this game as it's way less important than kills per second. You definitely want fire rate, you probably want punch through most of the time and you most certainly don't need to choose between shred or vigilant armaments in any build. Whenever a weapon has built in punchthrough or doesn't benefit from it, I just slot vile acceleration instead.
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May 3, 2019 21:35
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Hens and chicks are cool looking plants, so that khora deluxe skin is fantastic.
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May 3, 2019 21:35
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I mostly rely on fire rate mods to help with how guns feel. Like, I hated the Grinlok, then I tried it with a Riven and Speed Trigger and it's a lot of fun. I also almost never use punch through on my secondaries.
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May 3, 2019 21:35
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nerdz posted:DPS doesn't mean much in this game as it's way less important than kills per second. You definitely want fire rate, you probably want punch through most of the time and you most certainly don't need to choose between shred or vigilant armaments in any build. Whenever a weapon has built in punchthrough or doesn't benefit from it, I just slot vile acceleration instead. the other seven slots on a primary weapon have much stronger, bordering on mandatory options for the handful of weapons that neither want Hunter Munitions nor Heavy Caliber then yeah, sure, stick on both but those are more the exception than the norm this is way less debatable than which of the two to use Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:39 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 21:37
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Every time you hit a second target with punchthrough, your DPS has doubled. A third target, and it's tripled. If you're firing into groups of targets more often than not (and you are because Warframe), the small percentage of single target DPS difference will be swallowed up by the effective DPS multiplier of every additional target you've hit. You'll kill things faster and save ammo by teaching your enemies the value of sharing.
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May 3, 2019 21:37
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Phigs posted:The burnout aspect of Nightwave comes from the FOMO nature of it. Warframe is usually a game you can just walk away from for a while and everything will be there for you when you come back. Nightwave made people feel like they have to play every single week with no breaks. Which is fine if you play like that anyway, but pretty bad if you'd otherwise like to take a break. But if they hadn't played for weeks the'd miss the old alerts anyway. I just didn't get this fomo poo poo at all. I don't get how people can feel burned out about a game that they've theoretical not being playing for a period anyway. (not having a go at you, just hear variations of this way too much, sorry) Anyway, they've changed it enough to keep most people happy I hope
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May 3, 2019 21:40
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Adolf Glitter posted:But if they hadn't played for weeks the'd miss the old alerts anyway. I just didn't get this fomo poo poo at all. I don't get how people can feel burned out about a game that they've theoretical not being playing for a period anyway. (not having a go at you, just hear variations of this way too much, sorry) Getting away from punchthroughchat, most people feeling FOMO about nightwave didn't care about the old alert rewards. Only the new temporary nightwave ones.
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May 3, 2019 21:43
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Powers are the ultimate punch through Shooting two guys at once isn't quite as necessary when you can Saryn Sneeze or Nova Antimatter Drop a whole tile Gun frames like Chroma, sure, load up on punch through, party's over there with One Punch Atlas
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May 3, 2019 21:43
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I mean really with Catchmoon existing it's almost all moot anyway. I got a riven for it from the Kitgun riven alert a few months ago and it's both my best single target AND AOE punchthrough weapon. It's stupid. Would possibly be true even without the riven. On that basis, the meta choice is maybe Catchmoon for 95% of everything plus maybe a Tigris or sniper for long range or status based single target drilling.
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May 3, 2019 21:46
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I put Primed Shred on everything, because it's a 55% increase in burst DPS, and higher fire rate just feels better. It's better than adding a third elemental, a second multishot mod, or Hammer Shot. Shooting through walls is a nice bonus. It's worth noting that if you have any synth Mods on your Warframe or sentinel then switching to melee for a few seconds will reload your weapon.
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May 3, 2019 21:51
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Thrilled the 75 Wolf Cred survival was only 10 minutes. Went in figuring it was 20 but prepared myself for 30.
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May 3, 2019 21:52
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Adolf Glitter posted:But if they hadn't played for weeks the'd miss the old alerts anyway. I just didn't get this fomo poo poo at all. I don't get how people can feel burned out about a game that they've theoretical not being playing for a period anyway. (not having a go at you, just hear variations of this way too much, sorry) Old alerts kept coming back though. If you missed an item you wanted it would come back at some point in the future. Plus if you missed an alert you often didn't know you missed it so you didn't feel it. Personally daily quests/logins are reasons I've quit several games. Sometimes you just need a break. If a game has a mechanic that keeps you playing during that time then you will keep playing until your burnout is strong enough to break the manipulative psychology of the mechanic. If that happens you're so much more likely to have a bad opinion of the game and much less likely to come back. Remember that the number 1 advice people give for feeling bored or burned out is to go do something else for a bit and come back later. If you still can't understand remember that these kinds of systems are specifically designed to keep people playing when they otherwise wouldn't. It's not weird that it works on people the way it's designed to work.
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May 3, 2019 21:53
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for season 2 they are making it so when you complete a challenge it will be replaced with one from earlier if you skipped any.
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May 3, 2019 22:02
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Adolf Glitter posted:But if they hadn't played for weeks the'd miss the old alerts anyway. I just didn't get this fomo poo poo at all. I don't get how people can feel burned out about a game that they've theoretical not being playing for a period anyway. (not having a go at you, just hear variations of this way too much, sorry) It was more a question of, "if I'm not going to play for a week now or later for whatever reason, what am I not getting?" because hey, sometimes life happens and you have a work schedule that doesn't accommodate spending an hour in a Kuva survival or going to wave 40 on a defense at a straight shot, or maybe you just straight up can't play at all for a week and you'd rather not have that happen from forces beyond your control. The reason you're hearing variations of it "too much" is because the first few weeks of this were super poorly handled, between week after week of new fresh hells that sometimes wouldn't even give you credit properly, and being told vaguely "oh you only have to do 60% of the points" without knowing what that actually boiled down to in day-to-day, week-to-week, real game terms. Also because if you needed Nitain Extract when Nightwave started you were utterly poo poo out of luck for the first week or two, and now anyone sticking around throughout is absolutely drowning in the stuff, so they still hosed that part up coming AND going.
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May 3, 2019 22:14
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my opinion is put shred on everything if you think it makes the gun feel better, this is a case where human preferences and subjective feel are not a math problem to be solved. for example battacor is - to me - borderline unusable without primed shred. I hated shoving forma in it in advance of getting p shred because even regular shred's 30% rof wasn't enough. If it comes down to slotting a "suboptimal" mod or not using the gun, I'll take the former every time. Another example: This is why my aklex primes, which I've built to handle sortie 3 extremely easily, have the -recoil mod in slot 8. (and +PT on the riven  )the part where shred routinely provides a large benefit to how the game plays instead of paper dps calculations by allowing me to delete entire hallways at once, well, that's even better. Psion fucked around with this message at 22:29 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 22:27
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DoombatINC posted:Every time you hit a second target with punchthrough, your DPS has doubled. A third target, and it's tripled. If you're firing into groups of targets more often than not (and you are because Warframe), the small percentage of single target DPS difference will be swallowed up by the effective DPS multiplier of every additional target you've hit. You'll kill things faster and save ammo by teaching your enemies the value of sharing. This, also, without punch through you're losing DPS any time enemies line up, because you have to wait for the corpse to evaporate or fall or fly off or whatever before you can hit the enemy behind them.
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May 3, 2019 22:27
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Oh man, that reminds me of the pain of watching Supra Vandal without shred spam blue dots into standing corpses. Never again.
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May 3, 2019 22:39
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Wait so what is this emissions vs energy color thing? What actually is an emission and Is that on top of two tone energy or a replacement? I can't watch the stream right now 
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May 3, 2019 23:00
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Xun posted:Wait so what is this emissions vs energy color thing? What actually is an emission and Is that on top of two tone energy or a replacement? Iirc it's primary + secondary warframe energy colors and primary + secondary ability energy colors. So you could for example make an entirely blue Ember but still fart out red flames.
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May 3, 2019 23:01
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Most importantly, this means I can finally make Kuva-themed warframe designs that have orange lights on the frame but red-black particle effects on their powers.
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May 3, 2019 23:05
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Xun posted:Wait so what is this emissions vs energy color thing? What actually is an emission and Is that on top of two tone energy or a replacement? Emissions is for your warframe's lighting/effects. Energy is what your abilities will look like. For questions about which one will determine chroma's element they said "it's the first one".
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May 3, 2019 23:06
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If you're an unobservant dummy like me, please note that the Prisma Shade that the Baro is selling is not a Prisma cosmetic or skin (despite being wedged in between them) but actually the first Sentinel to be given a Prisma variant.
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May 3, 2019 23:09
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It also comes with a prisma sentinel weapon. so it is MR fodder, but a good bit of MR fodder.
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May 3, 2019 23:15
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Yeah Shade is a good sentinel and Prisma Shade looks real nice to boot.
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May 3, 2019 23:15
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It was also available the last time so the Primed Man really wants to get rid of it.
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May 3, 2019 23:23
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The Lotus puppeteer scrawl is back if you missed it the first time because you, like me, can't stand gamer beardmen trying to fill in dead air while playing, thankfully, you can go on the forum thread announcing that: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1090003-twitch-drops-puppeteer-scrawl-make-up-campaign/ And select a streamer from a language you don't understand so that you don't understand their small talk while you have then in 160p in a minimized window and are playing, but so that you can still hear them cheer when they kill a thingy monster and get the scrawl so you can set the resolution back to normal and close the stream. Furthermore, whilst I cannot present this argument in the Modus Tolens form, I must insist that: lenses are poo poo and lock you in a few specific weapons instead of letting you have fun with your arsenal, and are very clearly an awful design decision, discuss.
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May 3, 2019 23:26
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SIGSEGV posted:Furthermore, whilst I cannot present this argument in the Modus Tolens form, I must insist that: lenses are poo poo and lock you in a few specific weapons instead of letting you have fun with your arsenal, and are very clearly an awful design decision, discuss. Any argument against lenses on this basis would also be true of potatoes and forma, and there's no way that's ever changing no matter how right you are.
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May 3, 2019 23:29
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Not really, potatoes and forma naturally trickled in with alerts and now still kinda do with Nightwave. And were far more available. For lenses, you want to farm for some school? You have to select a specific weapon and frame that you slotted something in and then select ESO or other affinityfest to get it. I have three schools to finish and have four dolon lenses slapped onto a loadout and it's starting to get old to go out and eternal war valkyr like that, somehow. I don't mind potatoes too much, I am mildly annoyed by forma because i need time to relevel a frame or weapon, especially a frame, but lenses kinda piss me off.
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May 3, 2019 23:34
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Specific lenses are harder to get though. I think they'd be better if they were school-less until applied like forma. Or you got a unfocused lens or whatever that you had to craft into a specific one like the greater lenses.
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May 3, 2019 23:38
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Phigs posted:Old alerts kept coming back though. If you missed an item you wanted it would come back at some point in the future. Plus if you missed an alert you often didn't know you missed it so you didn't feel it. There're obviously multiple points of view on Nightwave - for eg those that like the tasks and rewards vs those that want to get on with whatever their current fancy in the game is. I fall into the one above mostly. The problem for me with NW isn't how many tasks or how much reward for each task though it is important, it was (a) that you have a linear list of rewards that you have to grind your way through to get to the ones you want, and (b) there are Acts and time windows in which you can do them or spend the currency you get from them. Neither has been addressed in NW2, they just eased the numbers a bit - and made some nice changes like missed challenges coming back etc, though all that does is give you even more tasks to do instead of getting on with what you were doing. I'm taking a long break from the game because of what you talk about in your second para. My last week+ in the game was purely logging in to turn in Ostron/Quills/SU/VS rep because they took away the ridiculously high arcane parts requirements. But those daily standing caps killed my enjoyment of the game just as dead as NW had threatened to before I quit it early on. (I didn't do any of the 6 original syndicates because of those daily caps, traded for those augs instead.) Focus has the sanest approach to daily caps with the ability to go over it by an unlimited amount if you find dolons fun. They should do that everywhere. I'm thinking of coming back for Plague Star if I'm still interested in June, but that kind of event is a better reason to come back to the game than a daily login bonus of whatever kind. Worth pointing out that if I come back for a week or two I'll have zero reason to do NW2 whereas the old alerts would have stayed just as relevant.
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May 3, 2019 23:50
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