|
Android Blues posted:I feel like Rahne has perpetually been the character unnecessarily bad things happen to since, like, the early 90s. The last major plot point she had was Strong Guy murdering her large adult son. I still hate that. Not that I was a fan of the pregnancy plot to begin with.
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 11:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 23:08 |
|
|
It's bizarre, too. Rahne doesn't want to kill her attackers, sure, but she could have still used her powers and just... left. I expect Rosenberg will get a lot of angry reactions but fall back to "X-Men fans are mean through no fault of my own." And Android Blues is right, although arguably you could go back even further to her major plot point of being "sad over Doug" and then "guilty liking somebody who isn't Doug" and on and on.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 12:50
|
|
|
Rosenberg is such a loving hack and this is lazy, bad writing that doesn't even try to answer a number of obvious problems with the scenario like; why didn't the werewolf just turn into a wolf and run away? Or why are four dudes capable of beating a werewolf with a healing factor and years of combat training and experience to death even if said werewolf didn't want to fight back? It's lazy, it's gross, I just hate this run like I've rarely hated an X-book. At least Major X has some exuberance to it's terribleness, it's like a really stupid puppy that just woke up from a nap and is full of energy so it's making a mess and annoying but you can't be as mad about it as you would because aww, puppy.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 12:59
|
|
|
Poor Rahne. In-universe she's only like 18-19 too.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 14:32
|
|
|
That's largely been the New Mutants raison d'etre for most of their existence. Wasn't Warlock the only casualty in Xtinction Agenda? And Rahne was forced to be a wolf permanently or she'd revert to mindless slave?
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 15:49
|
|
|
Cannonball and Sunspot at least escaped the X-Men misery vortex mostly unscathed.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 16:17
|
|
|
Android Blues posted:Cannonball and Sunspot at least escaped the X-Men misery vortex mostly unscathed. Has Sunspot been in anything since Ewing's various Avengers books?
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 16:19
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:That's largely been the New Mutants raison d'etre for most of their existence. Wasn't Warlock the only casualty in Xtinction Agenda? And Rahne was forced to be a wolf permanently or she'd revert to mindless slave? Yup. Oh, and somehow she was genetically coded to have a crush on Havok during that whole mess. (I think Peter David can be thanked for that one.)
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 16:24
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Yup. Oh, and somehow she was genetically coded to have a crush on Havok during that whole mess. (I think Peter David can be thanked for that one.) Even past the weird mind control sex stuff, of all the people to be forced to have a crush on, ewww.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 16:27
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Has Sunspot been in anything since Ewing's various Avengers books? Though to be fair, most of that list of dead people at Rahne's funeral are people who are 'dead' (disappeared by X-Man/Legion, in the Age of X-Man). Though to be even more fair, Sunspot's not in any of the sloppy group fight scenes in X-Men Disassembled. And is apparently in War of the Realms, which takes place before Rahne's funeral since she's alive during War of the Realms. Though to be the fairest of them all, "Roberto" could be referring to the current Ghost Rider, The Battling Bantam, or anyone else named "Roberto" that Rahne and "Sam" were close to and are now dead.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 16:53
|
|
|
They were big Panthers fans.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 16:56
|
|
|
Women in Rosenberg's X-Men exist purely so Scott and Ligan can man pain.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 17:21
|
|
|
Roth posted:Women in Rosenberg's X-Men exist purely so Scott and Ligan can man pain. It's really kinda sad that with maybe the exception of Morrison, Claremont is probably still the most feminist X-Men writer in their history.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 17:33
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:It's really kinda sad that with maybe the exception of Morrison, Claremont is probably still the most feminist X-Men writer in their history. Yeah, and much as I love Claremont, that's really not a high bar to clear. He just...cared about having female characters who had their own complicated thoughts and feelings, did things, and had stories centred on them. It's amazing how few runs on Uncanny even up to the modern day have met that extremely basic standard.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 18:29
|
|
|
They gotta have their own personalities and relationships or else when you turn them into a baby, what is it even for?
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 18:42
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Even past the weird mind control sex stuff, of all the people to be forced to have a crush on, ewww. I also forgot the time Rahne made out with one of her students (Elixir, I think) when she was going through one of her 'my wolf side makes me super horny' phases. Poor thing never could win.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2019 20:46
|
|
|
Since we're talking about cool things cool writers did to Rahne/other New Mutants, remember in Secret Empire (or at least Cullen Bunn tie-in issues) where Rahne got the secondary mutation that she can turn from a human into a werewolf into a wolf into five smaller wolves? Because that's something that happened.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 04:59
|
|
|
That's even dumber than when Geoff Johns made it so that Beast Boy can do cellular reproduction and divide into multiple copies of the same animal.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 05:03
|
|
|
Rahne's plots in later PAD X-Factor was also pretty bad-- her changeling son and all of that run's meandering stuff about Hell. Rahne is a great character who has not really had a lot of compelling plots of her own I guess.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 05:08
|
|
|
She's better off dead.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 05:15
|
|
|
Synthbuttrange posted:She's better off dead. Aren't we all in the long run?
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 05:58
|
|
|
Some Uncanny #17 stuff: https://www.comicsbeat.com/uncanny-x-men-17-trans-panic-murder/ https://twitter.com/NotLasers/status/1124032036749172736 https://twitter.com/AshcanPress/status/1124065856294739970 Also, something wild from earlier this week, in the X-Men Monday that probably relates to Rahne's secondary mutation: http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.co...or-kevin-feige/ quote:AiPT!: I’m curious, does the X-Office have a running list of dangling plot lines or mysteries that you inherited and have the power to resolve or ignore as Senior Editor? Fans can’t be the only ones tracking these things! I mean... there's no excuse for this in any Editorial office, right? Just a simple notepad document listing the arc and the plot point wouldn't take long to set up and maintain.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 10:13
|
|
|
Metalshark posted:Some Uncanny #17 stuff: I'm fairly certain 'adding trans characters who are treated respectfully' and 'bringing back the space clone X-Men from that one New Mutants issue' are his two main priorities. And he's
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 11:55
|
|
|
Metalshark posted:I mean... there's no excuse for this in any Editorial office, right? Just a simple notepad document listing the arc and the plot point wouldn't take long to set up and maintain. During their Inferno special, Jay and Miles talked about how it was said Bob Harras had a whiteboard with a very detailed timeline that showed where N'astirh was at any given time so he was never in the same place twice because he was in about every Inferno-related title. That's too much effort now, I guess?
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 13:11
|
|
|
If only there was the technology for a company to build their own sort of... I dunno, hypertext document that could be collaboratively updated to track characters' appearances and plotpoints. Some sort of... Wiki? Or you could look characters up in Wikis that already exist, which is how I remembered Wolfsbane got that secondary mutation. Both of these seem pretty hard though!
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 14:34
|
|
|
Edge & Christian posted:If only there was the technology for a company to build their own sort of... I dunno, hypertext document that could be collaboratively updated to track characters' appearances and plotpoints. Some sort of... Wiki? Oh, E&C! Always the wacky futurist!
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 16:03
|
|
|
Edge & Christian posted:If only there was the technology for a company to build their own sort of... I dunno, hypertext document that could be collaboratively updated to track characters' appearances and plotpoints. Some sort of... Wiki? *Sigh* I'll start the wiki on building a wiki
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
Metalshark posted:Some Uncanny #17 stuff: seems like Rosenberg's intentions were good (the point is clearly that "she's a trap" as a rationale for transphobic violence is bad), but it is an extremely tone-deaf and tasteless way of using mutants as a metaphor for a real-world minority, and I would be surprised if Rosenberg consulted with any trans people about this scene beforehand
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 16:52
|
|
|
Yeah when you guys first brought it up I didn't expect he literally used that phrasing. That's bad.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 16:59
|
|
|
Barry Convex posted:seems like Rosenberg's intentions were good (the point is clearly that "she's a trap" as a rationale for transphobic violence is bad), but it is an extremely tone-deaf and tasteless way of using mutants as a metaphor for a real-world minority, and I would be surprised if Rosenberg consulted with any trans people about this scene beforehand "extremely tone-deaf and tasteless way of using mutants as a metaphor for a real-world minority" has been part of the X-Men at least since the second time Kitty dropped an N-bomb. Not saying it's not important or that they shouldn't try and be better, just that, sadly, it's incredibly on brand of them.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 17:41
|
|
|
I think the big difference is that Claremont was genuinely trying to make a point, there was thought put into it, this new mess is the result of thoughtlessness. I don't think Rosenberg was trying to draw a connection, he wasn't trying to shed light on a real experience, he was clueless and White was clueless and the X-office has nobody on hand that that could have caught what they were doing.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 18:10
|
|
|
rantmo posted:I think the big difference is that Claremont was genuinely trying to make a point, there was thought put into it, this new mess is the result of thoughtlessness. I don't think Rosenberg was trying to draw a connection, he wasn't trying to shed light on a real experience, he was clueless and White was clueless and the X-office has nobody on hand that that could have caught what they were doing. Yeah. Also, when this stuff happened to Claremont's characters, it was usually the start of a storyline about them overcoming adversity. Wolfsbane just dies, and because she's not the most popular character and has had like four lines in this whole run, it feels like a cheap way to milk pathos. Especially since the only justification given for how four guys managed to kick a regenerating werewolf to death is, "oh, she let them because she just wanted to be normal". Like, the classic issue where Xavier gets beaten nearly to death by a gang of anti-mutant college students leads to one of his best moments, where a few issues later he's still debilitated and he has to talk down a vengeful James Proudstar, who wants to murder him with a knife, without the use of his powers. And even in the issue where he gets beaten up, the reader gets his perspective - his anxiety, his fear, his dread, his best efforts to stop the situation from escalating. You feel for him. Here it feels like Rahne is a bit player in the story of her own death.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2019 21:30
|
|
|
Android Blues posted:Yeah. Also, when this stuff happened to Claremont's characters, it was usually the start of a storyline about them overcoming adversity. Wolfsbane just dies, and because she's not the most popular character and has had like four lines in this whole run, it feels like a cheap way to milk pathos. Especially since the only justification given for how four guys managed to kick a regenerating werewolf to death is, "oh, she let them because she just wanted to be normal". 100%, I was thinking of that precise plotline. When Claremont has Xavier helpless in the face of stupid, bigoted violence, it's in order to, in part, show us about Xavier-- his strength of character as well as the extent to which, perhaps, he'd become reliant on his powers. It's a great moment of vulnerability and development for a character whose physical vulnerability was too often read as his defining feature. Wolfsbane on the other hand only dies because this run thrives on images of female suffering-- see Blindfold's gratuitous and tacky suicide scene a few months ago. As has been mentioned, there's no reason she doesn't fight back or just, like, shrug it off and leave, other than that this book only exists to give Scott and Logan interminable scenes of grieving and sulking.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 01:05
|
|
|
My feeling about X-Men has increasingly become that they can work as a voice for minority issues but if and only if those people have an actual voice in the story, not someone else speaking for them. I think there is a lot of good intention around these things but good intention can't exist in a vacuum or else it risks doing more harm than good. This doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the main writer but if they're not there should be a whole lot of discussion and inclusion before the story is told and real respect needs to be there. A major thing about this sort of story that I think is an issue is that it's hopeless and depressing and the one big advantage of X-Men is that (as someone mentioned above) they're often about overcoming or growing stronger or learning to feel comfortable with yourself, which is why X-Men has such a strong community of fans who know oppression themselves. It's the sort of thing that allows one to overlook the increasingly dumb metaphor of mutants to Real Issues because there is a catharsis and comfort there. That isn't to say you can never have sad/upsetting X-Men stories (because honestly X-Men needs that to function as a soap opera) but especially in this day and age those readers don't need to be constantly reminded of the danger and isolation and suffering they risk every day just by existing. They are well aware of it. You can make the argument of "it's not FOR them, it's for the people who hurt them" and yeah, sure, I know there are X-Men fans who've come to realize their crappy behavior thanks to X-Men, but if you're focusing on them to the exclusion of all else it ends up making weird artificial uncomfortable situations like this one, where the coded-as-trans person suffers and dies so other people can learn about it. This happens a lot to characters who are queer or queer-coded in comics where they get genuinely sad and hurtful stories so others can realize how sad it is, without giving anywhere near as much comfort or catharsis as other superheroes get. You're drat lucky to see two women holding hands, let alone kissing, and even more lucky to see two men allowed to be remotely physically affectionate in the way even women are, and it just gets worse from there. All superheroes suffer and have down sides and misery and terrible stories that poo poo on their character or whatever. It's part of being a superhero. It's just that if you're not a cis white male you'll increasingly find yourself only getting very specific stories and for anyone who is or coded as queer you end up far, far, far more likely to be tragically murdered or tortured. (Part of this is because you're most likely a less popular character but that's part of the problem too. ) This is on top of having already limited or censored storytelling for every other aspect of your character because of the double standard towards traditional hetero relationships and anything else.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 03:06
|
|
|
the only bad part of Jay becoming an editor at Marvel is the inevitable Dr. Peter Corbeau mini series that leads into a Dr. Peter Corbeau themed summer event where he gets the Infinity Gauntlet or something
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 09:19
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:My feeling about X-Men has increasingly become that they can work as a voice for minority issues but if and only if those people have an actual voice in the story, not someone else speaking for them. I think there is a lot of good intention around these things but good intention can't exist in a vacuum or else it risks doing more harm than good. This doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the main writer but if they're not there should be a whole lot of discussion and inclusion before the story is told and real respect needs to be there. For sure. I feel like if you want to do the "metaphor for minority issues" thing, you need to actually inhabit the characters who are being brutalised, sympathise with them, give them emotional complexity, let them struggle and prevail. It's a dubious enough metaphor in this day and age that you need to put some work into selling it if you want it to come off as meaningful instead of crass and exploitative.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 11:59
|
|
|
Yeah, it's possible for X-men to do a story about a transperson being murdered, but a) it should actually star a transperson, b) it shouldn't be literally the ONLY story about a transperson you've ever done, and c) it should actually be about the transperson, not a bunch of cis white dudes having manpain over their death. This story fails on all three counts. It's a separate issue, but Rosenberg filling his run with cheap shock deaths doesn't do this story any favors, either.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 12:46
|
|
|
OnimaruXLR posted:the only bad part of Jay becoming an editor at Marvel is the inevitable Dr. Peter Corbeau mini series that leads into a Dr. Peter Corbeau themed summer event where he gets the Infinity Gauntlet or something I think you mean the best part.  Edit: It should also star Harvey & Janet and Bill The Lobster, as well as the aforementioned Space Clone X-Men. Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 13:12 on May 4, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 13:04
|
|
|
The current Uncanny X-Men writer seems to be all over the place, but a glaring plot hole that I noticed is that Moonstar is a main character here, when she's supposed to be stuck on Nate Grey's pocket dimension (Prisoner X book). What gives?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 23:08 |
|
|
Saoshyant posted:The current Uncanny X-Men writer seems to be all over the place, but a glaring plot hole that I noticed is that Moonstar is a main character here, when she's supposed to be stuck on Nate Grey's pocket dimension (Prisoner X book). What gives? I think someone mentioned earlier that is an intentional thing that is supposed to get explained later?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2019 23:53
|
|