|
A big flaming stink posted:Of course I don't know it! None of us do, that's what I'm getting at! It's one thing to say that Maduro is likely extremely unpopular at the moment, it's a whole nother thing to say that the population supports his outright removal via any means necessary, especially when those "means" include meddling by the Trump administration and Elliott loving Abrams! The US ceasing all Venezuelan intervention (or maaaaaybe saying something like "we'll go along with whatever [that group of random interested powers that isn't the Lima Group] decides", but honestly even that might be applying too much influence under the circumstances) would indeed be pretty great. edit: the International Contact Group, those guys For content, a Venezuelablog interview with Some WOLA Nerd after the immediate revolt attempt subsided: https://venezuelablog.org/venezuela-protests-wbez-interview/ Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 01:56 on May 5, 2019 |
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:14 |
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Right, and why do you believe that's mainly poor people, to the point where the poor in general are his 'most reliable base of support'? What data do you have that PSUV support does not presently skew richer (or outright skews poorer) than opposition support? That's what Fat-Lip was asserting. I ain't assuming poo poo. I think it's not the biggest leap in the world to believe that the PSUV's support skews towards the lower incomes because their policies favor substantive social safety nets, but assuming that the poor support him is orthogonal to my point. That point being either through outright approval or tacit tolerance, the majority of Venezuela's population supports Maduro in so far as they are not backing his ouster at the hands of the opposition. This material fact is one of the few things we can actually be certain about, and any further attempts to diagnose the true feelings of the voiceless in venezuela simply reveals what one personally wishes them to be. GreyjoyBastard posted:The US ceasing all Venezuelan intervention (or maaaaaybe saying something like "we'll go along with whatever [that group of random interested powers that isn't the Lima Group] decides", but honestly even that might be applying too much influence under the circumstances) would indeed be pretty great. In light of that, do you think supporting Guaido's efforts to unseat Maduro (as they are manifesting in the present) is likely to help, or hinder arriving at such a least-bad outcome? A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 01:55 on May 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:52
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:I ain't assuming poo poo. I think it's not the biggest leap in the world to believe that the PSUV's support skews towards the lower incomes because their policies favor substantive social safety nets, Actually, the PSUV's policies have dissolved the social safety net in Venezuela over the past 5-6 years.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 01:59
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:I ain't assuming poo poo. I think it's not the biggest leap in the world to believe that the PSUV's support skews towards the lower incomes because their policies favor substantive social safety nets, but assuming that the poor support him is orthogonal to my point. That point being either through outright approval or tacit tolerance, the majority of Venezuela's population supports Maduro in so far as they are not backing his ouster at the hands of the opposition. i think failing to focus on this is where i/we went off the rails and started tilting at windmills quote:This material fact is one of the few things we can actually be certain about, and any further attempts to diagnose the true feelings of the voiceless in venezuela simply reveals what one personally wishes them to be. I dunno whether I'm at a "yes" or a "no" at this point but the revolt apparently imploding - apparently through mismanagement by Lopez and Guaido, no less - has shifted me pretty noticeably. I'm not sure where that leaves the MUD and the National Assembly as a whole other than flailing impotently. Hilariously, Guaido fleeing the country might be an optimal outcome; that might open space for someone better to get their poo poo together.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 02:00
|
|
|
Mainstream foreign policy people seem hopping mad that there is meaningful domestic opposition from the left to regime change poo poo https://mobile.twitter.com/BeijingPalmer/status/1124716189048025089
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 06:37
|
|
|
You can't keep asserting that no one supports Maduro when the pro-Maduro rallies are huge relative to the pro-Guiado rallies. Anyway https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/05/venezuela-asylum-seekers-refugees-trump-administration-us quote:Trump administration denies special help to Venezuelans seeking asylum E: oh Kobayashi linked it already above my bad Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 15:44 on May 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 15:42
|
|
|
Also btw it owns that Maduro is dealing with people attemping an actual coup de etat in what seems to be a remarkably benevolent way, for a brutal dictator. Meanwhile, Israel fires into dozens of protestors on Friday, killing two, and that's just literally ignored by Western media now saying Hamas is firing rockets completely unprovoked and for no reason. Basically I am saying the western news media is like worse than RT levels of trash propaganda and holy poo poo how can anyone believe them as a source of evidence in consideration for whether the USA should do any kind of action against another country. They seem to always arrive at the same answer: the USA must act! How coincidental. Here's what I know: there are a gently caress ton of people in the streets who are pro-Maduro, or at least anti regime change. The opposition has stalled out a couple times now because no one wants to pick up their cause. I don't see how you rationalize that away. Seems to me that the Venezuelans are speaking loud and clear: gently caress off. And even all that aside, this has been so bungled that I find it hard to believe that even an anti-Maduro right winger would approach the opposition at this point. So all these sanctions causing people to suffer that the US state department is bragging about are just goddamn pointless cruelty at this point. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:14 on May 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 18:04
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Her comments require a set of prior assertions about the building's ownership, about the protest, on law enforcement operation obligations, that aren't based on...anything. They don't intersect with the previously cited arguments or claims by the US government or Vecchio in any way. That's your expert legal analysis? A mintpress contributor's video of someone citing no actual laws? I mean, "right-wing fascistic siege mob"? Nah she’s right. The people trying to evict the embassy protecters are doing so without any legal authority... The fascistic siege mob would need a court order to evict the protesters, even if Maduro had been decisively ejected by the coup. Even if they were squatters with no basis to be there whatsoever it would have to be decided in court before the fascistic siege mob could ask the police to evict them. And of course violent “self-help” is decidedly illegal, even if it is a favorite trick of landlords everywhere...
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:13
|
|
|
Moridin920 posted:Also btw it owns that Maduro is dealing with people attemping an actual coup de etat in what seems to be a remarkably benevolent way, for a brutal dictator. He probably doesn't want to provoke a U.S. reaction. You can find examples of other cases, like that of Oscar Perez, where the Maduro government showed no such restraint.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:20
|
|
|
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:fascistic siege mob is that really what you're going with
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:23
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/MikePrysner/status/1125074121807749120
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:31
|
|
|
I’m shocked. shocked!
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:36
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:is that really what you're going with Yeah. a bunch of pro-Trump assholes screaming at Code Pink, the local DSA and other socialists; trying to get into fights with them. Do you think anti-antifa is a real political formation? How credulous and thickbrained do you have to be to take issue with describing a bunch of pro-trump wannabe street fighters picking fights with socialists as “fascistic”? DOCTOR ZIMBARDO fucked around with this message at 19:42 on May 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:37
|
|
|
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Yeah. a bunch of pro-Trump assholes screaming at Code Pink, the local DSA and other socialists; trying to get into fights with them. Do you think anti-antifa is a real political formation fine whatever, use your term, i have no idea what the rear end in a top hat to non-rear end in a top hat ratio in the 'fascistic siege mob' is and don't particularly care about the outcome edit well okay nonviolence is probably good, i'm glad that even the anti-Maduro counter-squatter was expelled with a minimum of debacle Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:46
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:nonviolence Too bad this isn’t a standard you hold the US government to, particularly with respect to its actions in Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 19:57
|
|
|
Kobayashi posted:Too bad this isn’t a standard you hold the US government to, particularly with respect to its actions in Venezuela. who do you think i'm holding it to regarding the weird low-stakes embassy kerfuffle it's not the 'embassy protectors' i'm worried about cracking people's skulls (it's the guys with the monopoly on violence)
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 20:09
|
|
|
From like a month ago but here's a Venezuelablog bit mostly on the humanitarian situation in Venezuela: https://venezuelablog.org/1355-2/ quote:Human Rights Watch partnered with researchers at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health to compile a report on Venezuela’s humanitarian emergency based on interviews with 150 health care professionals as well as Venezuelans seeking healthcare in Colombia and Brazil. They found a health care system in collapse leading to outbreaks in preventable diseases such as measles, diphtheria and malaria. They also found that 80% of households are food-insecure and two thirds of people have lost weight. They recommend that the United Nations Secretary General publicly acknowledge that Venezuela is facing a complex humanitarian crisis and implement a commensurate humanitarian response. They also made recommendations to the World Health Organization, the U.S., European countries, and Lima Group members. i think that last bit is a poor choice of words, I don't think the 'rejection' has any practical impact? HRW report: https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/04/04/venezuelas-humanitarian-emergency/large-scale-un-response-needed-address-health there's also some interesting stuff farther down about the ICG and what Team PSUV and Team MUD have allegedly been saying in private discussions with 'em
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 20:41
|
|
|
That puts that article crying about how the poor misunderstood pro coup protesters are totally just like real venezuelans into perspective, lol. The whole thing was a buncha crocodile tears, as almost anything pro-coup seems to turn out to be after a week or two.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 21:35
|
|
|
So what are people’s predictions for the next 5 years?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 22:21
|
|
|
It's funny, really. All of the actual Venezuelans I know (both online and off, both within Venezuela and abroad) are A) hard-left, and B) hate the guts of Chavez and Maduro, and their repulsive regime. Almost as if they see that beneath the regime's coat of red spraypaint it's a rotten, oppressive kleptocracy. A good friend of mine who is both Venezuelan and way more left-wing than me (and I'm hardly a right-winger/centrist myself) has literally been called a "fascist" and "AmeriKKKAN shill" for his work against the Maduro regime. And it's always by non-Venezuelans, most of whom are white to boot.  It's like they lack the self-awareness to see the sort of neo-White Man's Burden they're perpetuating by telling an actual Venezuelan man what to think about his country and his family's suffering. It's really been frustrating to see otherwise-sensible fellow lefties be so gullible as to fall for the Chavista "redwashing". Though given the existence of tankies who will defend regimes like Stalin's USSR and North Korea, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. It's as dumb as right-wingers who will point to the (kleptocratic, repressive, quasi-fascist) Maduro regime and go "hurr durr socialism don't work".
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 22:49
|
|
|
Bishop Rodan posted:It's funny, really. All of the actual Venezuelans I know (both online and off, both within Venezuela and abroad) are A) hard-left, and B) hate the guts of Chavez and Maduro, and their repulsive regime. Almost as if they see that beneath the regime's coat of red spraypaint it's a rotten, oppressive kleptocracy. is he supporting the right wing, US backed, coup, because that's what most people are talking about but hey go off I guess
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 22:53
|
|
|
I was born in venezuela and half my family is venezuelan, most of it still stuck in venezuela, but as poster said trying to get rid of maduro automatically gets you labelled as " FASCIST RIGHT WINGER PART OF A US CONSPIRACY" or " WARMONGERING NEOCON #HANDSOFFVENEZUELA". Seems the only "true" venezuelans are some white people in america which confuses me to hell.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 22:59
|
|
|
Celexi posted:I was born in venezuela and half my family is venezuelan, most of it still stuck in venezuela, but as poster said trying to get rid of maduro automatically gets you labelled as " FASCIST RIGHT WINGER PART OF A US CONSPIRACY" or " WARMONGERING NEOCON #HANDSOFFVENEZUELA". I'm confused why you think the us backed coup is some kind of fictional conspiracy when even the incompetent leader of it is open about his ties to the us. Seems like the people who speak for the Venezuelans are always trying to push them all as wanting a us backed coup.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 23:11
|
|
|
As I said "finding" a solution other than maduro", I did not support anyone in particular. But it is a good example of white people being against Imperialism and then telling other people how things should be as I guess we are not smart enough or we are easily brainwashed. Its Hypocritical
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 23:15
|
|
|
Celexi posted:As I said "finding" a solution other than maduro", I did not support anyone in particular. There is literally nothing hypocritical about Americans not wanting America to participate in regime changes in South America. All the rest of what you have to say is meaningless wailing over how awful it is that people don't want your country to be the latest to get massacred? What the gently caress is the wrong with you?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 23:21
|
|
|
Shaocaholica posted:So what are people’s predictions for the next 5 years? probably the current bunch still in power because despite all odds, these last few months have just proven "any alternative is better than the status quo" is a bunch of crud, and people who were on the fence before are now gonna be extremely tepid for an opposition from the right. maybe someone will attack maduro from the left finally, though it seems doubtful. that is, of course, if usa doesn't manage to conjure up some kind of excuse to invade first. right now the consesus seems to be for no war everywhere but in the white house, but a lot can change in five years.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 23:29
|
|
|
Shaocaholica posted:So what are people’s predictions for the next 5 years? The welcome return of the arepa chat in the thread instead of pages of shitposting. Also hoping my uncle gets out soon somehow. Last one in the family willing to jump ship.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 23:39
|
|
|
Celexi posted:As I said "finding" a solution other than maduro", I did not support anyone in particular. If your solution to imperialism is more America in Venezuela then yeah we’re probably not going to agree on much.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2019 23:52
|
|
|
Kobayashi posted:If your solution to imperialism is more America in Venezuela then yeah we’re probably not going to agree on much. Solution is less america, up to including protecting someone that destroyed the country since he assumed office.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 00:03
|
|
|
Bishop Rodan posted:A good friend of mine who is both Venezuelan and way more left-wing than me (and I'm hardly a right-winger/centrist myself) has literally been called a "fascist" and "AmeriKKKAN shill" for his work against the Maduro regime. And it's always by non-Venezuelans, most of whom are white to boot. What work has your extremely left wing friend done against the Maduro regime?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 00:05
|
|
|
It's strange to say that Americans shouldn't have any say in whether the US pursues regime change in Venezuela. Like, yeah, it's important that Venezuelans have a say too, but there's really nothing wrong with American leftists saying "hey, we have a really loving bad track record when it comes to this."
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
Truga posted:probably the current bunch still in power because despite all odds, these last few months have just proven "any alternative is better than the status quo" is a bunch of crud, and people who were on the fence before are now gonna be extremely tepid for an opposition from the right. maybe someone will attack maduro from the left finally, though it seems doubtful. I think there might be room for someone else in the MUD to get their poo poo together in the next six months to a year as things keep getting worse in Venezuela, but heck if I know who it would be. It also might require Guaido and Lopez to throw in the towel / flee to the US / get arrested and rearrested. A lot can change in eighteen months, but if I had to lay out a most likely timeline: Maduro and his clique cling on until 2021, President Sanders lifts the sanctions, and the PSUV sells everything left in the country to international financiers and energy megacorps, leading to them probably still being in power in 2024.  five years is a particularly apropos cutoff, because that's when the presidency is up for election again (assuming it doesn't get delayed a couple years due to the ongoing crisis) Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What work has your extremely left wing friend done against the Maduro regime? firebombed and EMPed the hydroelectric facility, obviously Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:23 on May 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 00:21
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:I think there might be room for someone else in the MUD to get their poo poo together in the next six months Would you say that the next six months are in fact, critical?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 00:46
|
|
|
Wiat weren't the last six months critical
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 00:48
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:Would you say that the next six months are in fact, critical?  Nah not really, it just seemed like a plausible timeframe.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 00:53
|
|
|
Celexi posted:I was born in venezuela and half my family is venezuelan, most of it still stuck in venezuela, but as poster said trying to get rid of maduro automatically gets you labelled as " FASCIST RIGHT WINGER PART OF A US CONSPIRACY" or " WARMONGERING NEOCON #HANDSOFFVENEZUELA". Watch how this is never addressed and some American crime is brought up for some reason.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 01:00
|
|
|
Truga posted:probably the current bunch still in power because despite all odds, these last few months have just proven "any alternative is better than the status quo" is a bunch of crud, and people who were on the fence before are now gonna be extremely tepid for an opposition from the right. maybe someone will attack maduro from the left finally, though it seems doubtful. What has proven any alternative to marudo is a bunch of crud? A lot of people have been attacking him from the left, you refuse to acknowledge it because it conflicts with your worldview and you don't like that.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 01:02
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:It's strange to say that Americans shouldn't have any say in whether the US pursues regime change in Venezuela. Like, yeah, it's important that Venezuelans have a say too, but there's really nothing wrong with American leftists saying "hey, we have a really loving bad track record when it comes to this." There are people saying this, and then there are also people saying every Venezuelan who is working against Maduro is a right-wing false flag, and cheering for the deaths of anti-Maduro protesters. There are a lot of people who just don't want to hear anything from actual Venezuelans in this thread, and will immediately try and discredit them whenever they do speak up.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 01:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:14 |
|
|
Celexi posted:I was born in venezuela and half my family is venezuelan, most of it still stuck in venezuela, but as poster said trying to get rid of maduro automatically gets you labelled as " FASCIST RIGHT WINGER PART OF A US CONSPIRACY" or " WARMONGERING NEOCON #HANDSOFFVENEZUELA". drilldo squirt posted:Watch how this is never addressed and some American crime is brought up for some reason. "Trying to get rid of maduro" is one hell of a broad category. Supporting guaido, at this point, is supporting an attempt at regime change being spearheaded by one of the most openly fascistic administrations in living memory, and if that sounds really unfair to the current opposition, you're right! It IS unfair. No one can escape the spectre of the imperialism of the united states, not those opposed to it, not those in favor of it, and hell not even those who don't care one way or the other. drilldo squirt posted:What has proven any alternative to marudo is a bunch of crud? A lot of people have been attacking him from the left, you refuse to acknowledge it because it conflicts with your worldview and you don't like that. To be precise, any "alternative" to maduro has been wholly subsumed by the right wing fuckheads in charge. Those attacking him from the left will have their opposition co-opted unless they take great pains to disavow the current attempt underway. Again, it's not remotely fair to those opposing maduro, and again, this unfairness is a fact of the matter whenever the united states of amerikkka decides to get involved. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 01:11 on May 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2019 01:07
|
|