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Angry Salami posted:Generations is fine. I mean, Kirk was wasted and there was no reason to destroy the Enterprise-D, but it's got some nice character moments, Malcolm McDowell's great, and the basic idea of the Nexus is a very TOS concept. It's fine when it's just trying to be a two part TNG with episode but towards the end it goes off the rails and doesn't really pay off. Like hooray the Enterprise is destroyed, Kirk is dead for real now, but at least we saved a bunch of anonymous people on a planet that nobody gives a poo poo about and wasn't described in any sort of detail beyond "there are people here". That's my biggest problem with Generations, it doesn't manage to generate any real tension. First Contact is a solid action movie with a TNG veneer. Nemesis is just hot garbage. I guess Insurrection wasn't technically that bad, it probably felt the most like an average two part episode. Watchable but still not the movie TNG deserved. Kibbles n Shits fucked around with this message at 16:17 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 16:15
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Also I like the Sovereign damnit. At least ILM's version of it.
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May 6, 2019 16:22
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skasion posted:Final Frontier is worth a watch. It sucks (though I’m sure someone will defend it now that I say so) but it’s weird enough to be fun anyway. Star Trek V has some fun ideas but they rushed it into production without working on the script. I like the idea of Sybok being like a televangelist and I like that angle of him gaining followers like people going jesus crazy. Having experienced that poo poo, with friends who basically get a personality wipe and suddenly become a hardcore christian who sings bible songs around a campfire from the coke-snorting, cop-spitting-on punk rocker is legitimately terrifying. But they never really play up that angle or anything. Everyone just listens to Sybok because he has the magical ability to give you 20+ years of world class therapy in fifteen seconds and there's no downside. Like Kirk is like "I need my pain god drat it!" but Sybok isn't just erasing your memories or whatever, which would be bad, he is literally healing decades old trauma. In conclusion you shouldn't shoot films off a first draft. And you know, use ILM for space movies.
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May 6, 2019 16:25
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Generations doesn’t really do enough with Kirk’s character to warrant him being in the movie, let alone to warrant killing him off — let alone the other TOS cast cameos. I just don’t think “Kirk and Picard team up” is a good concept at the root of it. They’re both head bitch in charge by their very nature, if you try and put them in the same movie one of them has to get the shaft. In this movie it’s Kirk who gets it. The conflict between Picard and Soren is good (the “time is the fire in which we burn” scene is the best single scene in any of the TNG movies for my money) but it could have been much better. It feels like it should have built to much more than a gunfight near a missile launcher on some rocks. The Nexus is a neat idea, but underexplored. All we really get to see of it is Picard having a nice trite Christmas and Kirk burning his loving eggs. What does Soran see when he’s there? What would anyone else in the Enterprise crew see? It’s wasted potential. Lursa and Betor don’t need to be in this movie. I thought the emotion chip was dumb even when I was a kid. Maybe if you find Data’s character innately funny you’ll get a kick out of him saying “oh poo poo”. I always found him more creepy though. The rest of the crew are barely in the movie as far as I remember. I guess Geordi gets his visor hacked or whatever.
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May 6, 2019 16:40
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skasion posted:Generations doesn’t really do enough with Kirk’s character to warrant him being in the movie, let alone to warrant killing him off — let alone the other TOS cast cameos. I just don’t think “Kirk and Picard team up” is a good concept at the root of it. They’re both head bitch in charge by their very nature, if you try and put them in the same movie one of them has to get the shaft. In this movie it’s Kirk who gets it. Counterpoint, 3 words: Riker's ascending joystick
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May 6, 2019 16:43
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Did Picard ever mention to anyone that he left Kirk's body underneath a pile of rocks, after Kirk fell down a cliff and had a bridge fall on him? Was there ever any 'this ship is CURSED I tells ya' business about the Enterprise-B, given that the former captain of the Enterprise-A died while on the B's first real mission?
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May 6, 2019 16:49
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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Oh also, I was mega high when I last watched Generations so I forget if this is actually consistent with the whole of the movie, but I felt at the time like it was possible to read the movie such that Picard never leaves the Nexus and the whole end (&remainder of the TNG timeline) are all just his Nexus fantasy, and IRL everyone got blown up.
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May 6, 2019 17:00
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lol but posted:friday night trek film power rankings
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May 6, 2019 17:00
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spincube posted:Did Picard ever mention to anyone that he left Kirk's body underneath a pile of rocks, after Kirk fell down a cliff and had a bridge fall on him? Was there ever any 'this ship is CURSED I tells ya' business about the Enterprise-B, given that the former captain of the Enterprise-A died while on the B's first real mission? If I recall, one of the Shatnerverse books, I believe The Return, has the Farragut come by (with Spock? Memory is dim) to beam he corpse out from the cairn and chop up the D for scrap, but they discovered Kirk's body had already been beamed away by the RomuBorg. I may be mixing things up a lot, it's been years since I read that
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May 6, 2019 17:01
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skasion posted:Generations doesn’t really do enough with Kirk’s character to warrant him being in the movie, let alone to warrant killing him off — let alone the other TOS cast cameos. I just don’t think “Kirk and Picard team up” is a good concept at the root of it. They’re both head bitch in charge by their very nature, if you try and put them in the same movie one of them has to get the shaft. In this movie it’s Kirk who gets it. I agree with all of this. I understand what they were trying to do with the emotion chip, but after seven years of Data trying to become more human, it felt really cheap for the effect of the chip to just be that Data was cracking lame jokes. Instead of seeming like Data was having a real growth moment, "Oh poo poo" and all the rest of it was annoying. I did like how Data was too afraid to fight back when Soren kidnapped Geordi, though. Generations has never been one of my favorites. It was a big mistake for the writers to bring back the original crew. They had their goodbye in Undiscovered Country. Giving them an encore in Generations just meant that the TNG crew was upstaged in their own movie.
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May 6, 2019 17:05
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It feels like Generations had a list of things they wanted to accomplish, and they didn't really care how those things happened. They wanted to kill Kirk and destroy the Ent-D and they wanted a planet-destroying threat. The way they actually handled these things seemed very perfunctory. Having the Enterprise get beaten by a Bird of Prey with one trick just seems lame. The main conflict is too impersonal and fails to generate tension. Kirk feels wasted. It probably would have been better if they didn't bring Kirk back at all. ST6 had a good sendoff for the TOS crew. I understand they felt a need to pass the torch, but I think Kirk still shouldn't have died. Let him go back to his own time, leaving a hopeful message for the TNG crew. Having him die a pointless death just does not work for his character.
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May 6, 2019 17:11
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i peg star trek V at the big lebowski tier
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May 6, 2019 17:30
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Admiralty Flag posted:Counterpoint, 3 words: Riker's ascending joystick Generations had so many production problems and it really shows. A bunch of stuff also got left on the cutting room floor like more with Kirk and the old crew at the beginning, and a whole thing with the Romulans. I still am not sure why they brought back the Duras Sisters since at that point they were a joke and had been ruined. Like their story was over.
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May 6, 2019 17:35
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efbAdmiralty Flag posted:Counterpoint, 3 words: Riker's ascending joystick I thought that was in Insurrection. At least, that's the scene my mind goes to every time I think of it.
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May 6, 2019 17:35
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lol but posted:i peg star trek V at the big lebowski tier I don't even know how to take this
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May 6, 2019 17:36
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I really wish the Next Generation movies never happened.
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May 6, 2019 17:36
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I also peg Star Trek And it pegs me back
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May 6, 2019 17:39
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I said come in! posted:I really wish the Next Generation movies never happened. I think their failure (well compared to the TOS movies) is the main reason modern trek is more interested in the TOS era. To these suits, movies matter more, are more prestigious, than tv success, so to them Star Trek is the TOS movies.
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May 6, 2019 17:43
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The Bloop posted:I don't even know how to take this not an important film but a group of weirdos in a sequence of fun scenes with an episodic feel
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May 6, 2019 17:44
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The Bloop posted:I don't even know how to take this Your little avatar is pretty good for reaction. But as far as the JJ films go, I liked the 2009, then Into Darkness completely let me down and I stopped caring, then I watched beyond last november and was surprised at how good it was. I really hated into Darkness.
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May 6, 2019 17:52
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IMO the camping/climbing/marshmellons scene is good and Kirk smartmouthing god is very TOS but the rest is hot garbage I just got buttfrustrated back in the day by all the dumb poo poo like the barrier, them traveling 25000 light years, the enterprise having 999 decks, etc
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May 6, 2019 17:53
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marktheando posted:I think their failure (well compared to the TOS movies) is the main reason modern trek is more interested in the TOS era. To these suits, movies matter more, are more prestigious, than tv success, so to them Star Trek is the TOS movies. It’s half of why imo, the big influence on the “return to TOS” idea is the failure of the whole Berman Trek project. Not only did the movies peak (financially speaking) with First Contact and get significantly worse thereafter, the shows’ viewership also dropped off from late TNG on and basically never rebounded. DS9, Voyager and Enterprise (which can be thought of as a kind of half assed early attempt at a “return to TOS”) started out with decent-to-good rating but none was able to retain the kind of audience that TNG had. By the mid-aughts pretty much everyone was openly saying that Berman Trek was getting old, so it’s no surprise that the franchise returned by going straight in the opposite direction, both in movies and shows.
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May 6, 2019 17:56
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I really like Bones' and Spock's Sybok-assisted flashbacks in Final Frontier. Other than that it's just kinda OK. The Klingon captain is an incredibly lazy, pointless secondary antagonist, Kirk's "SHOOT HIIIIM" makes him look like the bad guy, and Jesus, Uhura's dance. It does have a bunch of great oneliners though. "Nobody's perfect," "not in front of the Klingons." I don't hate the rock climbing, camping and rocket boots, like most people seem to. If they wanted TOS in Generations, why couldn't they have done a Yesterday's Enterprise-style teamup, after which the old crew goes home? Would've been a more significant passing of the torch imo.
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May 6, 2019 18:08
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lol, just watched TNG: The Descent. After shooting Lore while they're alone, Data walks up to the others telling them Lore is disabled and they should disassemble him. Nobody considers that maybe Lore took out Data and then just took his place? Again?
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May 6, 2019 18:12
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skasion posted:It’s half of why imo, the big influence on the “return to TOS” idea is the failure of the whole Berman Trek project. Not only did the movies peak (financially speaking) with First Contact and get significantly worse thereafter, the shows’ viewership also dropped off from late TNG on and basically never rebounded. DS9, Voyager and Enterprise (which can be thought of as a kind of half assed early attempt at a “return to TOS”) started out with decent-to-good rating but none was able to retain the kind of audience that TNG had. By the mid-aughts pretty much everyone was openly saying that Berman Trek was getting old, so it’s no surprise that the franchise returned by going straight in the opposite direction, both in movies and shows. Star Trek's rating decline looks bad in raw numbers, but the amount of competition expanded really hard throught the 90's. Voyager was still the #1 show on UPN and DS9 was managing to pull a 4.0 ratings share despite the heavy serialization.
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May 6, 2019 18:37
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Kibbles n Shits posted:but at least we saved a bunch of anonymous people on a planet that nobody gives a poo poo about and wasn't described in any sort of detail beyond "there are people here" You’re right that the movie doesn’t do enough to make the audience care about them, but Kirk dying to save an entire planet of millions of people is extremely on point for him. It’s a good death, the execution just needed work.
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May 6, 2019 19:00
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Can I have a source on this? Star Trek Movie Memories, Nick Meyer's commentary on the Wrath of Khan Director's Edition DVD (the one that came out in, like, July or August 2002, which is different from the Blu-ray that came out in 2016; Farmer Crack-rear end has a ... special limited edition that I gave to him), and I'm almost positive that it's heavily alluded to in The 50-Year Mission.
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May 6, 2019 19:14
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Hey youtube finally recommended a video about nerd poo poo that isn't awful? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Tm5KxkM8A
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May 6, 2019 19:27
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Ugh god I just watched In the Pale Moonlight and was all hyped for the next one Vic Fontaine, baby
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May 6, 2019 21:52
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Kira and Odo are the worst couple, I have rooted against them getting together at every turn. Now they're together, and I had to sit through like 6 full renditions of swing music I never particularly cared for after all the characters told me to trust them, this guy's great.
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May 6, 2019 21:53
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It charmingly represents the incipient tendencies of revolutionaries to sell their people out to authoritarian praxis once their revolution is accomplished Also Odo can probably grow lots of weird extra genitals, bet that was a factor
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May 6, 2019 22:10
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Vic Fontane is awesome. His club set is total rear end, though
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May 6, 2019 22:13
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Kibbles n Shits posted:It's fine when it's just trying to be a two part TNG with episode but towards the end it goes off the rails and doesn't really pay off. Like hooray the Enterprise is destroyed, Kirk is dead for real now, but at least we saved a bunch of anonymous people on a planet that nobody gives a poo poo about and wasn't described in any sort of detail beyond "there are people here". That's my biggest problem with Generations, it doesn't manage to generate any real tension. I agree that they needed more tension, but at the same time it's kind of fitting that the Ent-D went down as they tried to protect millions of lives not because that species was important in the bigger picture, but simply because they have worth from existing. I wonder how many Starfleet vessels are now dedicated to following and guarding the Nexus to stop people trying to mess with it.
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May 7, 2019 00:21
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I think they wanted to crash the D in Descent, with the possibility of killing off either Crusher or Troi or both. Sometimes I wonder how that season 7 would have gone. Would have made Descent loads better though. Also that’s why the episode is named Descent.
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May 7, 2019 00:32
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insurrection is the most TNG of the tng movies in that it feels exactly like a bad two parter and that is at leat something you know
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May 7, 2019 00:34
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Insurrection is like a horrible B movie without the charm. The final fight between the big bad and Picard on the enemy ship is suppose to show space and the enterprise engaging the enemy ship out the windows, but someone hosed up and now it's literally just a bluescreen. That's some Ed Wood poo poo right there. Burning_Monk fucked around with this message at 00:48 on May 7, 2019 |
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May 7, 2019 00:46
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Descent is awesome because they used the House of the Book as Lore's hideout, and it's inherently funny when the two of them are outside and, being a guy into bad shows for children, all you can think is that the two of them are at the Power Ranger's command center.corn in the bible posted:Lore works in his very first appearance when it isn't clear he's evil and Data is happy to have another android I feel like Lore worked in that Soong/Data/Lore episode when Lore breaks down a little and says "Why couldn't you just fix me?". For all the bravado the dude has, he knows something is wrong with him - to the point of having a little brother who was built to not be him - but can't do anything about it. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 00:49 on May 7, 2019 |
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May 7, 2019 00:46
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Star Trek V has some fun ideas but they rushed it into production without working on the script. I like the idea of Sybok being like a televangelist and I like that angle of him gaining followers like people going jesus crazy. Having experienced that poo poo, with friends who basically get a personality wipe and suddenly become a hardcore christian who sings bible songs around a campfire from the coke-snorting, cop-spitting-on punk rocker is legitimately terrifying. But they never really play up that angle or anything. Everyone just listens to Sybok because he has the magical ability to give you 20+ years of world class therapy in fifteen seconds and there's no downside. Like Kirk is like "I need my pain god drat it!" but Sybok isn't just erasing your memories or whatever, which would be bad, he is literally healing decades old trauma. In fairness they got hammered by a Writers' Guild strike at exactly the wrong time, and Paramount was obstinate about the release date. I think they were well aware the script was in a rough state. davidspackage posted:I really like Bones' and Spock's Sybok-assisted flashbacks in Final Frontier. Other than that it's just kinda OK. The Klingon captain is an incredibly lazy, pointless secondary antagonist, Kirk's "SHOOT HIIIIM" makes him look like the bad guy, and Jesus, Uhura's dance. It does have a bunch of great oneliners though. "Nobody's perfect," "not in front of the Klingons." I don't hate the rock climbing, camping and rocket boots, like most people seem to. I'm fairly certain the producers very much wanted the TNG crew to take center stage, I don't think a lot of the TOS cast would have been up for a whole movie and I don't think the budget would have supported it either. Generations was already incredibly tight on cash. I would go the other way and exclude the TOS cast altogether. They had a fine sendoff with Star Trek 6. Let the TNG cast stand on its own.
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May 7, 2019 00:50
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Burning_Monk posted:Insurrection is like a horrible B movie without the charm. The final fight between the big bad and Picard on the enemy ship is suppose to show space and the enterprise engaging the enemy ship out the windows, but someone hosed up and now it's literally just a bluescreen. Nope, it’s just a really bad production design decision. By the time Insurrection was made they’d already transitioned to greenscreens, so the blue is just supposed to be part of the blue bits you can see on the exterior model. You can even see greenscreen being used in BTS shots like this one:  IIRC Insurrection was also the most expensive TNG film made, so it wasn’t even a budgetary decision. Big Mean Jerk fucked around with this message at 01:18 on May 7, 2019 |
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May 7, 2019 01:15
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They blew a huge amount of money on the Baku village and all that location shooting.
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May 7, 2019 07:24
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