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QC continuing to be good on message, mediocre on jokes. Like, I appreciate showing the struggle of addiction, but then following it right up with a diarrhea joke is kinda whiplash-y.
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May 7, 2019 12:49
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Patrick Spens posted:Oh the message was definitely that, but there's a lot of different ways to violate someone's bodily autonomy, and collapsing them all down to rape is not a great idea. The draft is a large scale violation of autonomy, but is not rape. And despite the rather rapey blocking and dialogue the draft is a much better analogy. Alison isn't using Max for sexual gratification or sadistic power indulgence, she's forcing him to provide labor. It wasn't a metaphor for the draft. It was a (shockingly ill-conceived) metaphor for taxes and the social contract. That's why the writer made the guy a libertarian, and why you are explicitly NOT meant to sympathize with him. The rape analogy stuff is mostly down to the visuals and the dialogue. Again, the creative team were incredibly bad at making whatever muddled point about the monopoly on violence the writer had in his head.
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May 7, 2019 13:23
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Joe Slowboat posted:It just bugs me how totally insufficient to its historical moment SFP was. In both an aesthetic sense and a political sense. The same character also iirc had a mural of Icarus, reinterpreted as "hubris is actually a good thing if you really are a genius."
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May 7, 2019 13:33
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Burkion posted:Also John Henry's story had nothing against progress- it was all about progress used unjustly by the rich to gently caress over the poor and working class. I mean, this is also a thing most people miss about the original Luddites, so, par for the course
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May 7, 2019 14:24
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The best moral in any myth is Prometheus. "Providing security for the weak requires stealing it from the strong. They will hate and punish you for it, but it's worth doing anyways."
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May 7, 2019 15:13
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PMush Perfect posted:The best moral in any myth is Prometheus. "Providing security for the weak requires stealing it from the strong. They will hate and punish you for it, but it's worth doing anyways." It should be noted, it is a perfectly valid reading of Prometheus to say that Prometheus is not on humanity's side, and indeed has deliberately caused the situation. Prometheus is Foresight. Like, literally. The Greek pantheon in general are literal incarnations of their domains. Zeus is justice, for example, Aphrodite is lust and love, and Prometheus is foresight. He can absolutely foresee the consequences of his actions when he tells the humans to trick the gods into accepting the shittiest parts of the sacrifices. Which is what leads to the gods taking fire away - they have been cheated, forced to take the parts of the sacrifice that no one can eat, leaving the rest for humanity, because Prometheus told humans how to trick them. And then stole fire back from the gods. So why, in this case, is Prometheus doing this entire thing? Because, in this reading, he knows it is required for the other part of the story, the one that is often forgotten: there's a prophecy about Zeus being overthrown by one of his sons. Prometheus, who is foresight, is not an ally of the gods - he was neutral in the Titanomachy, despite being a Titan, because he knew it was not winnable. He's playing the long game. But again, this is only one valid reading.
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May 7, 2019 15:18
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Joe Slowboat posted:As someone who really thought Strong Female Protagonist was cool for a long while, and was willing to make excuses through a lot of the Moonshadow chapter... it turns out there were some fundamental things wrong from the start, looking back. Basically the very first scene of the comic was about making GBS threads on collective action. SFP pretty clearly became the amazing mess it was because it was Liberal Centrism: The Comic and the big reveal was intended to be that Allison's true superpower was voting or something, then 2016 didn't quite turn out as planned and Mulligan had to flail around to find a new story, which he never managed to figure out. Mors Rattus posted:It should be noted, it is a perfectly valid reading of Prometheus to say that Prometheus is not on humanity's side, and indeed has deliberately caused the situation. Prometheus is Foresight. Like, literally. The Greek pantheon in general are literal incarnations of their domains. Zeus is justice, for example, Aphrodite is lust and love, and Prometheus is foresight. He can absolutely foresee the consequences of his actions when he tells the humans to trick the gods into accepting the shittiest parts of the sacrifices. This is a different version of the Prometheus myth than the one I'm familiar with but I like it
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May 7, 2019 17:09
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Basically the very first scene of the comic was about making GBS threads on collective action. SFP pretty clearly became the amazing mess it was because it was Liberal Centrism: The Comic and the big reveal was intended to be that Allison's true superpower was voting or something, then 2016 didn't quite turn out as planned and Mulligan had to flail around to find a new story, which he never managed to figure out. See, I assumed the first section was about Alison's alienation and she would eventually learn how to work with people to improve the world. And in theory, she did have that revelation, except her idea of 'working together' is 'a number of geniuses do startups in parallel' because yeah, Liberal Centrism of the most exhausting kind. I don't think there was ever going to be a real pro-democracy position to it, centrists are weirdly, deeply antidemocratic in some fundamental ways, Alison particularly so.
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May 7, 2019 17:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:Edit: Although come to think of it, I guess it's a lot like that one Dominic Deegan scene where the story jumped through hoops to provide a scenario in which rape can be a heroic action, which is not really a story territory that I'm interested in. The resolution of that last arc where Alison smashes through years of mental illness to fix a guy's brain was also peak Dominic Deegan, too.
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May 7, 2019 19:18
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Nuns with Guns posted:The resolution of that last arc where Alison smashes through years of mental illness to fix a guy's brain was also peak Dominic Deegan, too. How had I forgotten the bit where she literally punched off his childhood trauma and personality disorders. How could I forget that the solution to a problem intractable by violence ended up also being violence.
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May 7, 2019 19:36
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Clevin
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May 7, 2019 20:59
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Nuns with Guns posted:The resolution of that last arc where Alison smashes through years of mental illness to fix a guy's brain was also peak Dominic Deegan, too. And the fact that THAT was the penultimate arc of the story instead of, you know, anything else that mattered. The entire storyline of anything of consequence was put on hold for the extended (VERY extended) Patrick/Lord Boy show. thrilla in vanilla posted:Clevin Last seen running away in fear when Patrick says something slightly challenging to him. True to his character to the end!
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May 7, 2019 21:03
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Last seen running away in fear when Patrick says something slightly challenging to him. True to his character to the end! Nevermore to cook pasta or chastely cuddle on the couch.
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May 7, 2019 21:41
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Today's QC is back to being pretty alright again.
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May 7, 2019 22:27
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Joe Slowboat posted:How had I forgotten the bit where she literally punched off his childhood trauma and personality disorders. How could I forget that the solution to a problem intractable by violence ended up also being violence. At least we got to learn how his mom used her deadly krav maga training to crush a French Bulldog's neck in one hand . Rotten Red Rod posted:And the fact that THAT was the penultimate arc of the story instead of, you know, anything else that mattered. The entire storyline of anything of consequence was put on hold for the extended (VERY extended) Patrick/Lord Boy show. Well, granted, there wasn't much of a storyline of consequence to follow at that point. Alison nominally went into his mind to get answers on that conspiracy he's been investigating the whole comic and she couldn't even get that in the end. Maybe he told her after, but now we'll never know.
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May 8, 2019 05:14
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Mors Rattus posted:So why, in this case, is Prometheus doing this entire thing? Because, in this reading, he knows it is required for the other part of the story, the one that is often forgotten: there's a prophecy about Zeus being overthrown by one of his sons. Prometheus, who is foresight, is not an ally of the gods - he was neutral in the Titanomachy, despite being a Titan, because he knew it was not winnable. He's playing the long game. Was that the guy who maintained power whenever he was in contact with the Earth, so Hercules wrestled him around and killed him in the air? Not really a great gambit. Although I suppose Zeus was batting off prophecies of who would do unto him as he did upon his father left and right. He ate a lady because of one of those prophecies, although that didn't stop her from giving birth out of his skull. Man, I miss Gastrophobia.
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May 8, 2019 05:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:Was that the guy who maintained power whenever he was in contact with the Earth, so Hercules wrestled him around and killed him in the air? Not really a great gambit. Although I suppose Zeus was batting off prophecies of who would do unto him as he did upon his father left and right. He ate a lady because of one of those prophecies, although that didn't stop her from giving birth out of his skull. You're thinking of Antaeus. Prometheus is a way bigger deal, though he's not associated with physical strength. He is credited with creating humans and is often regarded as humanity's benefactor.
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May 8, 2019 05:42
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hes the guy whos got an eagle pecking out his liver all the time this just isnt micks day i guess
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May 8, 2019 06:46
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I was guessing at who Prometheus's son was.
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May 8, 2019 06:57
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brometheus?
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May 8, 2019 06:58
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bea i can never remember ur username here and im currently suspended on twitter for telling john bolton to poo poo himself to death so i cant reply there but i think dark matter hangs together p well on a reread the only real feedback ive got is a) i think the hiatus/etc pages could probably be moved to their own section cause they break up the pacing a bit and also b) im not sure what fred yeeted exactly. jeds ichor shell foot? also this remains incredibly good 
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May 8, 2019 09:24
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Oh, the usurper will be Zeus’ son, not Prometheus’. Also, Zeus swallows Athena’s mom in the form of a fly/shoves her in his ear to save her, not kill her. He relies on her wise advice, see, and was trying to keep Hera off her back.
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May 8, 2019 10:43
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What the gently caress Shag & Scoob
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May 8, 2019 10:53
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Greco-Roman myth is a cascade of different versions with radically different morals, character depictions, etc etc. In Hesiod, for example, Prometheus is the bad guy who hosed up a paradise where everyone was happy, didn't have to work, obeyed Zeus and also were all male. In response to his crime Zeus created the first woman, Pandora, who unleashed literally everything that is bad about the world. (so yeah Hesiod was misogynist as gently caress) Aeschylus rewrote the myth so that Prometheus was good - so good that he's practically a mary sue. In his three parter, Prometheus is responsible for Zeus defeating the Titans, and then Zeus gets pissy at him when he saves humanity from being destroyed and teaches them civilisation. Anyway Zeus is a massive dick in this story, Prometheus gets saved by Hercules in Part 2, and in Part 3 (now lost) Prometheus is supposed to save Zeus somehow and so make Zeus see how he was wrong all along. Then you've got later Roman authors who upgraded Prometheus to literally creating humanity.
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May 8, 2019 11:09
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yeah but what about pmushs dnd campaign circa 2005 prometheus whos the elder lich who invented necromancy
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May 8, 2019 11:13
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if you ever want to go down a real deep wikihole start at proto-indo-european mythology
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May 8, 2019 11:20
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make mockery posted:bea i can never remember ur username here and im currently suspended on twitter for telling john bolton to poo poo himself to death so i cant reply there but i think dark matter hangs together p well on a reread o i didnt think of that, ty. might be a weekend project moving everything over. and yeah thats jeds hand. imo it also kind of looks like a weiner so go with what delights you more (read my webbcomic http://www.aghoststorycomic.com)
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May 8, 2019 11:30
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Tollymain posted:if you ever want to go down a real deep wikihole start at proto-indo-european mythology PIE mythology is 'dudes making poo poo up,' nothing about PIE stuff is at all worth considering as true or even truthy except the poo poo about linguistics.
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May 8, 2019 13:36
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Archenteron posted:What the gently caress Shag & Scoob This prompted me to catch up on that comic and I agree, what the gently caress
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May 8, 2019 13:43
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh, the usurper will be Zeus’ son, not Prometheus’. I heard something between those; the prophecized son of Zeus that would overthrow him worried Zeus, given that his father overthrew his grandfather and then he overthrew his father... And now Metis was pregnant by him. So, consuming/absorbing her kept her from having kids (or was meant to; as we all know, Athena found her way out anyway) while also allowing him to keep her around and continue receiving her advice. Given how much Zeus cheated on Hera, I'm inclined to find the "Zeus was Also, on a tangent, the earlier mention of Zeus representing justice is actually new to me somehow; while I knew about the whole sky, lightning, law, order, and so on stuff, I apparently missed that justice fell under his purview too. I would have figured it'd be more appropriate for Nemesis, though I guess she's kind of focused on retribution against those guilty of hubris rather than more general "justice"/punishment, at least in some of the things I've heard. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 14:11 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 13:58
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Re: Classical Myths & Prometheus Here's the version I heard So Prometheus (whose name means forethought and could see the future, thus he knew Zeus would win the Titanomachy), and his brother Epimetheus (afterthought) were in charge of repopulating the Earth of living creatures after the early battles of the gods. Epimetheus was in charge of the animals while Prometheus was in charge of humans. They were also given gifts by Zeus that they could bestow upon their creations. When Prometheus and Epimetheus started making humans and other creatures out of clay Prometheus would take his time to make sure humans looked like the gods while Epimetheus would rapidly make all sorts of creatures (IE he'd make a lion, then an elephant, then maybe a wolf etc). Since Epimetheus would finish his creations quickly, he could give them many of the gifts Zeus had made available, things like great strength, fur to keep them warm, claws to attack etc. This left little or nothing for humanity, which led to Prometheus asking Zeus to give the humans fire. Zeus refused, but Prometheus gave it to humans anyway. At first Zeus was angry but then he smelled the smoke from the animal sacrifices humans were now able to make and was appeased. Now however Prometheus had another problem, humans were sacrificing the best parts of their meat to the gods, living little or nothing for themselves. So he has Zeus come and make a decision between two piles of meat; one good looking pile that is actually just scraps covered by a layer of fat, and another pile that contains cuts of meat covered by bones. Zeus chooses the good looking pile and was furious when he realized he had been tricked. This is when he has Prometheus chained to a mountain and gives Pandora to Epimetheus, who lived with the humans. So Pandora opens her jar and the hoard of miseries fly out and begin afflicting humans. This punishment just causes humanity to act worse and not better as Zeus had planned, so he decides to flood the earth. Only two people, Deuclion (son of Prometheus) and his wife Pyrrha, survive the flood in an ark he was told to build by Prometheus. After the flood is over they go to the Oracle of Delphi (who somehow also survived the flood) and ask her how to restore humanity. They are told to “throw the bones of your mother over your shoulders”. Deuclion realizes that by mother she means Gaia (the earth) and by “bones” she means stones. They do this and behind Deuclion the stones he throws turn into men and the stones Pyrrha throws turns into women. Since these new men and women are made of stone instead of clay they are able to resist the miseries better than the last race of humans.
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May 8, 2019 15:12
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Every version I've read has Zeus responding to the two bags trick by dousing all fire on Earth, and Prometheus steals fire from the sun to give back to humanity; it is for the theft of fire (which is often equated with art, technology, etc) that Prometheus was bound to the rock, set upon by eagles eating his liver and eyes every day, etc. However I also heard a version of the general cycle where what was foreseen was Zeus bearing a son stronger than himself, as his father and grandfather had each done- and been overthrown. This son was in fact born eventually: Heracles. Zeus manages to be a slightly better father than Uranus or Cronus, so when Heracles becomes a god after his mortal life, he sided with the Olympians and even helps them defeat an unstoppable army of Giants. Thus, Zeus in this version really is representative of wisdom and kingship; they just had a pretty flawed and human view of that role in their gods (and in general even as anthropomorphizations the Greek pantheon contain cultural contradictions and nuances that make for more generative stories, from our modern perspective, than 'this is Justice who always acts perfectly Justly'). Also p sure Adrasteia and Nemesis were different forms of Justice, being 'revenge' and 'balance' (both are War-deities though).
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May 8, 2019 16:16
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Glagha posted:This prompted me to catch up on that comic and I agree, what the gently caress Seems perfectly normal to me That's how all Scooby Doo shows go fighting an evil Mickey Mouse in a complicated clone twist around plotline while being Mickey Mouse
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May 8, 2019 17:32
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Lets see what's happening in monster pulse today...oh
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May 8, 2019 22:44
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LemonRind posted:Lets see what's happening in monster pulse today...oh Hey, she got her mouth back, what's the problem? E: Now that I think about it, this might be how the kids finally beat Lulenski. They're gonna have to fuse with their monsters to stand a chance. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 23:06
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Mors Rattus posted:PIE mythology is 'dudes making poo poo up,' nothing about PIE stuff is at all worth considering as true or even truthy except the poo poo about linguistics. whats so silly about the idea that a highly influential language's cultural mythemes werent also wildly successful at spreading and taking root?
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May 9, 2019 08:05
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im sure some people get real weird about it but the broad strokes concept isnt exactly wild and wacky somebody using your words, somebody telling your stories, are these really completely different and separate ideas Tollymain fucked around with this message at 08:12 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 08:07
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My main point of skepticism is that while the PIE mythology is similar to many myths that are connected distantly by language, the similarities are so vague and distant in the final myths as to be present but vacuous. Sure, there's a shared archetype of a sky-father, and the name of some prototypical example may be derivable via linguistics, but we don't know anything more than that without getting all Golden Bough. It's interesting to think of Indra and Zeus sharing a distant predecessor, but 'buff king what throws thunderbolts/vajra' does t give us any new insight beyond 'hey that's neat' into any culture we actually know anything about, and no real insight into PIE culture beyond the most tenuous.
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May 9, 2019 08:36
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honestly "hey thats neat" is what im here in this life for
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May 9, 2019 12:56
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Some of the ties are also manifestly false and honestly pretty insultingly reductive. Basically it's a bunch of linguists accidentally reproducing one of the worst things in anthropology which was the idea that all mythology could be reduced to a monomyth.
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May 9, 2019 15:36
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