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Covok posted:To be fair, I did say that the ghettos and the badge thing was me exaggerating. Also, article 18 is what I was referring to. And for them being a metaphor? That could be me being into X-Men, but I also don't think you can just do a story about a group of people that are oppressed in society living in an urban area who face Prejudice from from the police and not draw parallels, intentional or not. Splicer fucked around with this message at 23:56 on May 5, 2019 |
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May 5, 2019 23:52
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Kinda funny how the whole Mutant Hate thing was basically nonexistent in Marvel for the first 15 years or so of the X-Men's existence outside of certain fringe groups who were treated as the nuts they were rather than anything mainstream, indeed the X-Men had more government connections than most Marvel heroes of the period did
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May 6, 2019 00:05
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drrockso20 posted:If you haven't watched the original Scooby-Doo recently should give it a watch, it's surprisingly good for the time it came out, also Johnny Quest as well I did watch Scooby-Doo where are you back when I was a kid. And I did like it a lot. I mean, that show made a formula that Hanna-Barbera repeated like 20 loving times like the Jabberjaw and Josie and the Pussycats. I guess I could rewatch it a bit. As for VRV, I'm not super into the modern anime. Though I do want to see Konsuba since my friend, the owner of QuadrticKnight, loves it. Splicer posted:The X-Men = <insert disenfranchised group here> thing has problems. Something like Judgement Day still holds up because there are extremely direct parallels. Racism and bigotry as they exist are entirely baseless. Having dark skin does not make you inherently different from having light skin. The only real fundamental difference between someone who is gay and someone who is not is who they're physically attracted to. Any meaningful differences are due to the oppression that those differences are then used to justify. So any kind of registration act is entirely a tool of oppression and othering with "Their differences make them dangerous!" being a lie and an excuse. Drawing parallels to a group that actually are born different and are explicitly more dangerous than everyone else feeds into the justification narrative of the oppressor. I would suggest everyone read that short comic. It was good. And trust me, I agree. When I was getting into X-Men, I was listening to a podcast called Jay and Miles X-Plain the X-Men and they basically open by admitting that the mutant metaphor is problematic. drrockso20 posted:Kinda funny how the whole Mutant Hate thing was basically nonexistent in Marvel for the first 15 years or so of the X-Men's existence outside of certain fringe groups who were treated as the nuts they were rather than anything mainstream, indeed the X-Men had more government connections than most Marvel heroes of the period did That's because the idea of using them as a metaphor was created by Chris Claremont. And it led to amazing storytelling. But, as Deadpool puts it in Deadpool 2, there a dated racism metaphor from the 70s. And it just doesn't work as well now that you can just do the thing. Due to the comics code, you couldn't do a story that was that on the nose about racism or homophobia or transphobia or excetera. Nowadays you can so why don't you just do that? Recently, X-Men tried to do a story about transphobia regarding someone dating a girl and then attacking her when she found out that she was a mutant. But boy did it not work. You might as well just come out and say it instead of doing this metaphor. Especially when you consider that the people who read Comics, not the fake comicsgate people, would actually applauded being so open about it as long as it was handled properly.
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May 6, 2019 00:14
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gradenko_2000 posted:I kinda agree with Tuxedo Catfish as far as we're getting a Suicide Squad "reboot" after all of one movie, so the idea that any one depiction of a piece of fiction is any more "real" than another is completely arbitrary. They're willing to throw away the concept of continuity as long as it serves their purposes (and so should we). Continuity for 70+ years of books, or 30+ years if we take Crisis of Infinite Earth's hard reset. Or 8 years if we count Flashpoint's reset.
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May 6, 2019 01:00
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Splicer posted:So any kind of registration act is entirely a tool of oppression and othering with "Their differences make them dangerous!" being a lie and an excuse. Drawing parallels to a group that actually are born different and are explicitly more dangerous than everyone else feeds into the justification narrative of the oppressor. Approximately 40% of the US voting population would be Just Fine if you substituted Muslim for Mutant because they honestly believe they're both born different and are inherently dangerous.
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May 6, 2019 01:52
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If the Al-Qaeda/ISIS pulled out half the poo poo Magneto, Apocalypse and other villains pulled, I mean, that wouldn't be unreasonable.
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May 6, 2019 02:10
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mllaneza posted:Approximately 40% of the US voting population would be Just Fine if you substituted Muslim for Mutant because they honestly believe they're both born different and are inherently dangerous. Splicer fucked around with this message at 02:21 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 02:16
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Splicer posted:That's the point. Using mutants as a stand in is results in a situation of "Yeah they are but..." and it doesn't matter what comes after the but because the initial premise is flawed. Using it as part of the discourse lends credence to a harmful conceit. This is not a comic book nor a tabletop, but Valkyria Chronicles is a very good handling of Fictional Fantasy Racism. For those not in the know It's basically a World War 2 third-person shooter/RTS hybrid in a fantasy version of WW2 Europe. The Darcsen are very heavily coded Jews, and the antagonistic Empire faction are obvious pseudo-Nazis, down to being downright genocidal and the narrative not shying away from said groups' racism. The Darcsen are a human ethnic group whose ancestral homeland is in what is now a desert kingdom, and their nation's participation in a long-ago war is used as an "original sin" justification to force them into ghettos and menial jobs, especially the mining and construction industries. They're often blamed for being dishonest criminal types, in spite of an entry in the in-game setting bible showing that they're not more prone to crime than others, and losing said war and subjugation encouraged a pacifistic culture among them. The Darcsen originally went to war against a group of people known as the Valkyrur who are worshiped as akin to living gods for basically conquering Europa and being the winners of history (and who the fascist Empire wants to revive as a kind of Master Race even though said experiments only ever result in destruction). The Darcsen, while being over-represented in various "building/technical" jobs, don't have some superpowered trick up their sleeve or systemic power. Barring Darcsen soldiers joining the main squad to fight the Empire, there's no crazed extremist group trying to bomb Imperial civilians or unjustified actions on their part (unless I'm missing some weird thing from VC2 and 3, I didn't play those games). Although the game series does have some cringey moments in regards to various things, the systemic racism against the Darcsen is quite literally unjustifiable. Unless you're a political figure seeking to shift blame or because actual historical records showing the Valkyrur as being on the wrong side of the ancient war would shake the religious foundations of the continent's false history. More works of fiction should do something like this IMO. I could go on for much longer about VC, but in spite of being a silly anime game it created a rather detailed outline of a better representation of handling such an issue IMO.
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May 6, 2019 02:39
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Libertad! posted:This is not a comic book nor a tabletop, but Valkyria Chronicles is a very good handling of Fictional Fantasy Racism. For those not in the know It's basically a World War 2 third-person shooter/RTS hybrid in a fantasy version of WW2 Europe. The Darcsen are very heavily coded Jews, and the antagonistic Empire faction are obvious pseudo-Nazis, down to being downright genocidal and the narrative not shying away from said groups' racism. 3 has the antagonists being an entire elite unit of Darcsens that the Empire uses for extremely dangerous missions in exchange for a Darcsen homeland. In the end their leader eventually snaps when his plan goes awry and tries to hijack an experimental Imperial missile facility and nuke the Gallia capital in order to strongarm the rest of the world into granting his goal but they are presented as pretty empathetic through the game. Also 4 had like a really mature take on the use of Nuclear Weapons that I was extremely shocked to see on a Japanese game, where the nuking of the Empire's capital BY THE PROTAGONISTS was presented as something that was necessary to end the war but they stop at the last second because a truce was reached before using the bomb.
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May 6, 2019 02:49
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Plutonis posted:3 has the antagonists being an entire elite unit of Darcsens that the Empire uses for extremely dangerous missions in exchange for a Darcsen homeland. In the end their leader eventually snaps when his plan goes awry and tries to hijack an experimental Imperial missile facility and nuke the Gallia capital in order to strongarm the rest of the world into granting his goal but they are presented as pretty empathetic through the game. Well dang. Having the not-Jews work for the not-Nazis and blackmailing the world with a nuke to get not-Israel probably explains why the series went downhill to the point that the 4th game was advertised heavily as being a r"eturn to the classics." Or maybe it was turning the 2nd game into yet another dumb high school anime.
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May 6, 2019 03:05
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Amusingly, I think 3 was the game where they included a character from Not-Japan solely to shut up people on the internet who were absolutely certain that the oppressed racial and religious minority in this World War 2 analogue were somehow a metaphor for the Japanese. 
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May 6, 2019 03:25
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Libertad! posted:Well dang. Having the not-Jews work for the not-Nazis and blackmailing the world with a nuke to get not-Israel probably explains why the series went downhill to the point that the 4th game was advertised heavily as being a r"eturn to the classics." Or maybe it was turning the 2nd game into yet another dumb high school anime. 3 was actually pretty good, storywise! Darker than 1, definitely darker than 2, but it had a cool cast of weirdoes on your penal unit (except for the one guy who was an actual hardened criminal) but the PSP hardware really kneecapped the game. (And well, history is weirder...)
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May 6, 2019 03:27
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Plutonis posted:3 was actually pretty good, storywise! Darker than 1, definitely darker than 2, but it had a cool cast of weirdoes on your penal unit (except for the one guy who was an actual hardened criminal) but the PSP hardware really kneecapped the game. (And well, history is weirder...) Fan consensus seems to be that 2 is the weakest entry both for gameplay reasons and story reasons.
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May 6, 2019 03:35
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Kai Tave posted:Fan consensus seems to be that 2 is the weakest entry both for gameplay reasons and story reasons. It definitely is. They went full anime in order to tap that demographic and they seemed to have failed in that regard. It's a Sega franchise so they're going to completely mismanage it every now and then.
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May 6, 2019 03:42
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2 almost killed the franchise in the west and made it so that 3 can only be experienced with a fan translation patch. It also probably would have killed 4's localization if the first game rereleases on steam and next gen consoles didn't sell well.
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May 6, 2019 03:46
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Kai Tave posted:Fan consensus seems to be that 2 is the weakest entry both for gameplay reasons and story reasons. It's a game where the protagonist shoots themself in the chest in order to cure a medic of their PTSD-induced crippling fear of blood.
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May 6, 2019 03:47
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Covok posted:I did watch Scooby-Doo where are you back when I was a kid. And I did like it a lot. I mean, that show made a formula that Hanna-Barbera repeated like 20 loving times like the Jabberjaw and Josie and the Pussycats. Even if you stick to older anime, VRV has a ton of it between Crunchyroll and Hi-Dive Also on the topic of X-Men, that's why if we do get them in the MCU eventually, I'd prefer them to be treated as just a straight superhero team with little to no focus at all on the whole Mutant discrimination aspect of the franchise Unless they do a big swerve and say do a Captain Britain movie first involving Mad Jim Jaspers and The Fury, having something that apocalyptic in nature happen involving a Mutant before the X-Men make their debut would be a good way to have Mutant Hate actually make sense in setting
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May 6, 2019 04:05
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does anyone have a link to liesmith's good old paladin posts? i can't seem to find them via search
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May 6, 2019 04:36
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Was it these posts?
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May 6, 2019 06:36
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So I'm selling some of my RPG books on Craigslist, and while I've got a rough idea on what to price them at for most of them(my Shadowrun, Star Wars, and Marvel Heroic RPG books to be specific), there is one book I'm uncertain how much I should try and sell it for, a copy of Vampire: The Masquerade - The Book of Nod I found at a thrift store about a year ago, was originally going to sell it for 20 bucks, but looking it up it appears it might be worth a bit more than that actually, so basically what should I be asking for this book?
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May 6, 2019 09:11
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drrockso20 posted:Even if you stick to older anime, VRV has a ton of it between Crunchyroll and Hi-Dive But they have to stay weirded out by the non-mutant city destroying weirdos for it to work. Personally I think mutants and all the other marvel franchises work better as separate universes. Splicer fucked around with this message at 09:22 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 09:20
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drrockso20 posted:So I'm selling some of my RPG books on Craigslist, and while I've got a rough idea on what to price them at for most of them(my Shadowrun, Star Wars, and Marvel Heroic RPG books to be specific), there is one book I'm uncertain how much I should try and sell it for, a copy of Vampire: The Masquerade - The Book of Nod I found at a thrift store about a year ago, was originally going to sell it for 20 bucks, but looking it up it appears it might be worth a bit more than that actually, so basically what should I be asking for this book? It's on Noble Knight, eBay and Amazon for ~$15-25 (though some hopefuls are asking closer to $50), and you can get PoDs of it from DTRPG for around $30, so I wouldn't be looking forward to a real payday. Since it was the first, most popular and most reprinted of the artifact books, I'd expect originals to be relatively cheap. I think the other ones that go for $50 were just later, less popular and so more limited in distribution (and you can get those from DTRPG for $10-$20, too).
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May 6, 2019 09:46
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Liesmith posted:Dude, get archives. It's worth it for all kinds of reasons, and it's not a lot of money. Thanks for digging this up, I was also looking for it. What ever happened to Liesmith?
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May 6, 2019 13:30
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Thank ye kindly.
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May 7, 2019 04:44
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Clanpot Shake posted:True story. I ended up going whole-hog and got a Platinum upgrade and avatar as well as the archives, marking this my first day as a non-Trump Lover. What unholy pact have I just made?
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May 7, 2019 05:31
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Libertad! posted:I ended up going whole-hog and got a Platinum upgrade and avatar as well as the archives, marking this my first day as a non-Trump Lover. What unholy pact have I just made? Honestly spending for those isn't terribly much compared to what you might see on these forums. Depending on what someone is doing they might purchase ads, other avatars, an unbanning, smilies, etc. Always remember that someone had to put down   for this:
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May 7, 2019 06:03
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Clanpot Shake posted:True story. Apparently he was banned for calling out Spec Ops the Line on its structural failings at a time when doing so was deeply unpopular.
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May 7, 2019 06:53
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Xarbala posted:Apparently he was banned for calling out Spec Ops the Line on its structural failings at a time when doing so was deeply unpopular. Spec Ops The Line is the Mike Gravel of first-person shooters
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May 7, 2019 08:35
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Xarbala posted:Apparently he was banned for calling out Spec Ops the Line on its structural failings at a time when doing so was deeply unpopular. Apparently a 3 day probe for not using the shift key? Jfc https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=91685
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May 7, 2019 11:44
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I miss hpapylfe's rants about Forge games.
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May 7, 2019 15:09
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Covok posted:
The comics code only restricted stories about homophobia or transphobia since you weren't supposed to show "unnatural lifestyles" or whatever. What stopped direct stories about actual racism was the same thing that makes them hard now: white fragility. Floods of tears at any suggestion that the complacency of the majority perpetuates oppression. The X-Men mutant oppression metaphor definitely had problems, but the biggest problem it's always had is that the lunatics have been running the asylum for at least thirty years at this point--the people who create big two comics grew up themselves as big two comics fans, and they're mostly middle-class white guys writing their own power fantasy, so when they attempt stories about minority experience or oppression, they often do it very badly. It's why you get tone-deaf poo poo like white, blonde, easily-passing Havok declaring that he "wants to be seen as human first" and the author declaring that anyone who doesn't like his writing should drown themselves in hobo piss.
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May 7, 2019 19:23
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occamsnailfile posted:The comics code only restricted stories about homophobia or transphobia since you weren't supposed to show "unnatural lifestyles" or whatever. What stopped direct stories about actual racism was the same thing that makes them hard now: white fragility. Floods of tears at any suggestion that the complacency of the majority perpetuates oppression. The X-Men mutant oppression metaphor definitely had problems, but the biggest problem it's always had is that the lunatics have been running the asylum for at least thirty years at this point--the people who create big two comics grew up themselves as big two comics fans, and they're mostly middle-class white guys writing their own power fantasy, so when they attempt stories about minority experience or oppression, they often do it very badly. It's why you get tone-deaf poo poo like white, blonde, easily-passing Havok declaring that he "wants to be seen as human first" and the author declaring that anyone who doesn't like his writing should drown themselves in hobo piss. You can't tell a story like this and not name names.
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May 7, 2019 20:03
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Also, I think an X-Men story actually works better in the MCU because it's so easy to gain Superpowers that even geno-normative types are capable of destruction on that scale, as sources by 22 movies.
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May 7, 2019 20:24
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Covok posted:You can't tell a story like this and not name names. I thought this one was widely known but basically Rick Remender wrote a storyline in Avengers where Havok basically advocates for minority erasure in the name of acceptance and assimilation, and this was well-intended in general, it was just massively tone-deaf. Remender's response to criticism of this was not well-intended or appropriate. 
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May 7, 2019 20:43
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occamsnailfile posted:I thought this one was widely known but basically Rick Remender wrote a storyline in Avengers where Havok basically advocates for minority erasure in the name of acceptance and assimilation, and this was well-intended in general, it was just massively tone-deaf. Remender's response to criticism of this was not well-intended or appropriate. Oh no, i really like "Low" and "Black Science" but that's... not great.
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May 7, 2019 20:53
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Clanpot Shake posted:Thanks for digging this up, I was also looking for it. What ever happened to Liesmith? He's converting from Catholicism to Islam. I'm not making this up. Plutonis fucked around with this message at 21:04 on May 7, 2019 |
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May 7, 2019 20:58
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The thing that gets me about the whole "mutants as metaphors for minorities" is that there's a very obvious and easy to write and glaring example where they could be used to bring new focus and attention to racial disparity and race-based oppression. The #1 reason we have what limited gun control laws we have in the US is because of white people being afraid when black people have guns. Especially here in california, this was the most public and prominent controversy surrounding the Black Panthers; they stood around state buildings in Sacramento, open-carrying in strict compliance with the laws at the time, and that terrified the hell out of white politicians and white voters, and so they started restricting and banning guns. But uh, in addition to racism being a hot button topic, boy isn't gun control also. e. but basically yeah, if superhero comics want to explore racism, they can explore actual racism, they don't need mutants to be the cover.
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May 7, 2019 21:02
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occamsnailfile posted:I thought this one was widely known but basically Rick Remender wrote a storyline in Avengers where Havok basically advocates for minority erasure in the name of acceptance and assimilation, and this was well-intended in general, it was just massively tone-deaf. Remender's response to criticism of this was not well-intended or appropriate. Wait, "UA" as in "Ultimate Avengers"? Because, oof, all that Ultimates poo poo with the exception of maybe the first hundred issues of Spider-Man was edgelordy as hell. Especially the X-Men. I don't remember this specific incident, but this is entirely unsurprising. (How many of them turned out to be cannibals?)
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May 7, 2019 21:52
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That Old Tree posted:Wait, "UA" as in "Ultimate Avengers"? Because, oof, all that Ultimates poo poo with the exception of maybe the first hundred issues of Spider-Man was edgelordy as hell. Especially the X-Men. I don't remember this specific incident, but this is entirely unsurprising. (How many of them turned out to be cannibals?)
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May 7, 2019 21:54
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Mutants definitely had cause for being persecuted on the Ultimate universe since Magneto killed like at least 10 million people during Ultimatum lol
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May 7, 2019 21:56
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