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Verisimilidude posted:I’d love to see a full on fix to 5e, but then I’m curious if that’s just modern pathfinder. If Paizo doesn't screw up what they had going in the playtest, PF 2e is going to make the license the only reason to play D&D. Very similar gameplay, flexibility, but way better systems and much better designed in general. e: I wouldn't call it a full on fix to 5e because it has different design aims (making for consistently good, customizable games), so like if you just want to bathe in the miasma of "D&D like Mike Mearls always remembered it" it won't hit that same itch.
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May 8, 2019 16:20
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Verisimilidude posted:I’d love to see a full on fix to 5e, but then I’m curious if that’s just modern pathfinder.
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May 8, 2019 16:31
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Arivia posted:If Paizo doesn't screw up what they had going in the playtest, PF 2e is going to make the license the only reason to play D&D. Very similar gameplay, flexibility, but way better systems and much better designed in general. Dang, I completely forgot that was coming out soon. My AL DM is so pissed off about various AL and convention shenanigans that we might actually switch over. We played Starfinder once and didn't like it but PF 2e seems way better from what I've read.
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May 8, 2019 16:36
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I don't get the surprise complaint at all. Why is it relevant that there's a rogue with a crossbow in the bush with these fighters. If we've established that they're hidden in the bushes, being still and silent, and waiting to jump out and surprise the goblins, why wouldn't they get to take advantage of surprise? Does someone have to be trained in stealth and wearing light armor to wait behind a door and stab the first person that opens it? That's pretty surprising You don't have to be a fuckin ninja to be able to surprise someone. You just have to be able to attack someone while they're unprepared for it and without time to get ready. If the fighters are in position to attack that same round and are undetected, then that makes sense.
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May 8, 2019 16:38
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Kaysette posted:Dang, I completely forgot that was coming out soon. My AL DM is so pissed off about various AL and convention shenanigans that we might actually switch over. We played Starfinder once and didn't like it but PF 2e seems way better from what I've read. If you're interested in convention play it's being specifically designed to work for their organized Pathfinder Society program too. Paizo knows PFS and adventure paths are their big selling points, and they're building a game to make those shine. I'm not willing to guarantee it's going to be the best ever though: spellcasters are getting a punch up and the skill scaling is being tweaked for the final product and either of those changes could torpedo the whole thing.
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May 8, 2019 16:40
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I wine because of how stupidly granular Pathfinder gets and then I whine about how lazily designed 5e is. I'd like to see Pathfinder 2 make a good middle ground but I'm not particularly hopeful.
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May 8, 2019 16:40
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It’s also very fun and good for the party to take part in an ambush against an enemy that is surprised
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May 8, 2019 16:40
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And at the same time, if the goblin sees you dive into the bush, he's probably not going to be surprised that you're in the bush regardless of what you roll on stealth. Don't miss the opportunity to reason about the actual concrete facts on the ground instead of who had to make what silly dice rolls. If they set up an ambush and there's a reasonable chance it'd work, then they get the ambush.
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May 8, 2019 16:41
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Malpais Legate posted:I wine because of how stupidly granular Pathfinder gets and then I whine about how lazily designed 5e is. Pathfinder 2 is taking an interesting tack on this. It's closer to 4e in that everything is technical language, common formatting, and inherited qualities. It's a much cleaner, easier to digest game - but it requires a lot of up-front reading. It's going to be less granular and easier to play at the table, but it's asking for a lot of buy-in first to understand how to read rules blocks, understand how properties work, and so on.
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May 8, 2019 16:45
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Is there any reason to carry a short bow over a long bow, ever?
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May 8, 2019 16:47
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change my name posted:Is there any reason to carry a short bow over a long bow, ever? If you’re small-sized
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May 8, 2019 16:51
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change my name posted:Is there any reason to carry a short bow over a long bow, ever? If for some reason you're not proficient in martial weapons and need a bow and not a crossbow. So no, not really.
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May 8, 2019 16:51
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rogues aren't proficient in longbows iirc
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May 8, 2019 16:53
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So pretty much just flavor/RP reasons, got it.
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May 8, 2019 17:00
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Shadow of the Demon Lord has all of the sensibilities of 5e from a grid-combat gameplay perspective, if not theme. This is true to the point that it shares some of the core issues of 5e, namely caster supremacy and hard-to-balance encounters. It definitely is the closest thing I've seen to "5e-done-right", at least regarding the mix of complex grid combat mechanics and character building that 5e seems to emphasize. Most other games which make harder choices about what sort of games they want to be and can thus be more focused, but are harder to pound into square holes. I dunno that I'd say SotDL has caster supremacy, honestly. They get significantly fewer spells than casters in D&D (I think a max level character knows something like a dozen spells at most), and their declarative narrative power is much smaller too with a vast majority of spells being solely combat options. Due to the very small amount of spells known, any kind of out-of-combat utility magic is a significant investment too. And when it comes to combat the martials are more than capable of keeping up, a properly built Fighter (well, the remade version of them anyways) is terrifyingly effective at killing things in that game. The encounter math though, woof, man, it's bad. The small number range the combat takes place in makes it hard to make an encounter that isn't either a total joke or horrendously murderous.
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May 8, 2019 17:02
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So I'm thinking of home brewing a wizard-ish class that deals more in druidic and nature magic. Essentially, they discovered magic, but paper is hard to come by where they live and thus have taken to inscribing the spells on their body as tattoos. Does something like this exist?
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May 8, 2019 17:07
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Yes, it's called playing a druid and telling the other players you write your spells on your body.
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May 8, 2019 17:09
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Conjuration owns though. Minor Conjuration is neat, but a once-per-day 30ft Action teleport is nothing to write home about on a Wizard (even with the swap functionality) precisely because of Misty Step. RE Focused Conjuration, I'll present to you the list of spells it applies to: Conjure Elemental Black Tentacles Web
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May 8, 2019 17:29
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Glagha posted:I don't get the surprise complaint at all. Why is it relevant that there's a rogue with a crossbow in the bush with these fighters. If we've established that they're hidden in the bushes, being still and silent, and waiting to jump out and surprise the goblins, why wouldn't they get to take advantage of surprise? Does someone have to be trained in stealth and wearing light armor to wait behind a door and stab the first person that opens it? That's pretty surprising You don't have to be a fuckin ninja to be able to surprise someone. You just have to be able to attack someone while they're unprepared for it and without time to get ready. If the fighters are in position to attack that same round and are undetected, then that makes sense. Pretty much. People are overthinking surprise. The Rogue surprises the Goblins, and both the Wizard and the Fighters follow up on his ambush. The Goblin Shaman is too wily to be surprised, and the Warg recovers its initiative quickly, but the Rogue takes out the Goblin Scouts with his Assassinate ability. The Fighters tangle with the Warg, while the Wizard duels with the Shaman, according to normal initiative order.
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May 8, 2019 17:33
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Glagha posted:Yes, it's called playing a druid and telling the other players you write your spells on your body. Or playing a wizard and choosing thematically appropriate spells, and telling the other players you write your spells on your body.
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May 8, 2019 17:36
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Conspiratiorist posted:Minor Conjuration is neat, but a once-per-day 30ft Action teleport is nothing to write home about on a Wizard (even with the swap functionality) precisely because of Misty Step.
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May 8, 2019 17:40
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CeallaSo posted:Or playing a wizard and choosing thematically appropriate spells, and telling the other players you write your spells on your body. Or a Bard. Or a Sorcerer. Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Am I missing something? Doesn't it work on any concentration conjuration spell? That's not a massive list but what about Sleet Storm, Cloudkill, Incendiary Cloud, etc? It does, but Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 17:49 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 17:40
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Need help not disappointing my players. Backstory: a while ago, they learned there was aberrant magic called scouring in the world that, when it kills somebody, also makes everybody else permanently forget about them. They learned this when they killed a scouring priest and returned to the inn to find that there was more equipment there than they expected, including a journal none of them had written. (I'd laid the groundwork before that by, once or twice a session, telling them that something happened and their characters knew why and didn't find it suspicious; this won't work for every group, but thankfully, they trusted me.) It was even more affecting than I'd hoped, and they continue to be emotionally invested in their dead companion. But the campaign can only go so long, and True Resurrection will be available before it ends, and I don't want it to be that simple but I also don't want to be like "sorry, guys, this spell that I definitely mentioned could work actually doesn't." I'm torn between explicitly putting them on a path to bringing her back or putting things in front of them that are building to something but not making it obvious what that is and thus making her return just as surprising to them as her existence at all had been. Anyone have any suggestions, both for which way to do it and what to do?
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May 8, 2019 17:58
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Conspiratiorist posted:Or a Bard. Or a Sorcerer. Man, what? I love Cloudkill. The combination of damage and obscurement is pretty useful in a lot of situations, especially in cramped spaces where the enemy has no choice but go through the cloud into a less advantageous position. Great for messing with backline archers or mages.
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May 8, 2019 18:30
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tzirean posted:I'm torn between explicitly putting them on a path to bringing her back or putting things in front of them that are building to something but not making it obvious what that is and thus making her return just as surprising to them as her existence at all had been. Anyone have any suggestions, both for which way to do it and what to do? Well True Resurrection says "if the creature's soul is free and willing"; could you argue that scouring damages the soul in a way that its no longer free or willing? Maybe there's a path to have them learn about their ex-party member before they decide to bring her back. Was she corrupted or turned and her returning would be a bad thing? Even if they go down the road of bringing her back at all costs, what are they going to do? True Resurrection is 9th level and costs 25K in resources alone, you could build a bunch of adventures around even finding someone capable of casting that, and being able to afford it.
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May 8, 2019 18:43
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I mean you could even just have it that their friend's soul is now at rest (perhaps in particular if they have destroyed a particular evil threat relevant to that character) and doesn't want to return to the material plane. If they're experiencing the rewards of a pleasant afterlife and/or have been reunited with family/friends/lovers in the hereafter it's perfectly plausible they might not want to come back. All of that would something you could lay a trail about so they don't burn 25,000 gold on a 'nah'. Just because *players* almost invariably want to get their character back in the game doesn't necessarily mean that every deceased person should always be eager or even at all willing to come back to life again.
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May 8, 2019 18:59
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Infinity Gaia posted:Man, what? I love Cloudkill. The combination of damage and obscurement is pretty useful in a lot of situations, especially in cramped spaces where the enemy has no choice but go through the cloud into a less advantageous position. Great for messing with backline archers or mages. It's a 5th level spell. Just use Wall of Force.
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May 8, 2019 18:59
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The Mash posted:The surprise rules are written so terribly that the only way to make them workable is by re-adding surprise rounds. As you describe the situation, the fighters are also completely undetected by the goblins and should absolutely get actions on the surprise round. Surprise requires that someone be unaware of a threat, not that somebody beat a passive perception check with a stealth roll. It's quite conceivable that someone could get caught by surprise during a social interaction; that's a bread-and-butter approach for an Assassin if the archetype is to be in any way effective. (Pro tip: you do not hire an assassin to kill a dragon.) RAW is vague about what "notice a threat" means; if the party is conversing with a shopkeeper who suddenly reveals itself to be a doppelganger and attacks, presumably the PCs are surprised because they were not aware of a threat. If a member of the party suddenly reveals itself to be a doppelganger and attacks the shopkeeper, presumably the rest of the party was unaware of the threat even if it isn't directed at them, and should be surprised. If the fighters are standing in the middle of the road, the rogue hiding in the bushes, and the goblins round a corner and see the fighters, then you have a few options: 1. Initiative triggers immediately for everyone. The goblins are surprised by the rogue, so they are considered surprised despite the fighters standing out in the open. You've established you don't like this. 2. Initiative triggers immediately for everyone. The goblins are surprised by the rogue. The fighters know that the rogue is hiding but unless they know exactly when the rogue is attacking, they are also surprised for the first round of combat. If they do know, either because the rogue isn't hidden from them or because some other means of coordination (like Telepathic Bond) is in place, then return to case 1 but in what I'd say is a more justified instance. The goblins round the corner, and before they can react to the visible threat they get sneak attacked from the bushes, catching them flat-footed for a moment and giving the fighters a brief advantage. I suppose the third option is to read "doesn't notice a threat" as referring to any threat at all, not to "doesn't notice a specific threat," and saying surprise is impossible for the rogue because the fighters were just standing there in the open. That's not unreasonable, but sucks for the rogue. BTW, the "ridiculous advantage" surprise gives a rogue is the same advantage that attacking from being hidden gives the rogue (Sneak Attack plus advantage). In many fights, it's trivial for a rogue to get this advantage. That's how the class is built. And see previous thread discussion of the Assassin to see how its additional advantage proves less than overwhelmingly good. If you don't want the PCs surprising your goblins, create encounters where the goblins have a decent shot at surprising your PCs, don't deny characters the chance to actually do what they're supposed to be doing. Three stealthy goblins plus two visible berserkers work just as well on your end to launch surprise as the rogue and the full-plate fighters do.
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May 8, 2019 19:11
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tzirean posted:Need help not disappointing my players. You could have the final, key piece of information be their dead friend's name - which is what the party needs to True Resurrect them, if that's what they want to do. And the friend could then know a key piece of information that can get to the next major story beat. Or have the finding forgotten secrets plotline bring them to some other story beat. Little tricks that beat the scouring curse are ripe for plot moments if you lean into it.
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May 8, 2019 19:17
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The fighters are completely hidden while the rogue peeks out and watches for the right time to strike, so only the rogue needs to roll stealth. When the rogue signals it's time to attack, the fighters follow his lead and strike, catching the goblins off guard. All the players get to go while the goblins miss their first move due to surprise. That's how I'd run it. I think the only time everyone would need to individually roll stealth is if they were all potentially exposed to being spotted, for instance to each sneak up on and backstab a different guard. And maybe the only time the non-stealthy people wouldn't be able to participate in the first "round" (I don't think D&D 5E really does rounds does it?) is if there was no way for the stealthy character to signal to them, like if he sneaks into a room while the others are waiting behind a closed door. So the other players are "surprised" for their first move since they're not ready to go precisely the moment when things kick off. Maybe. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 19:20
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The saddest thing about all of this Assassin talk is that even when you get past the fiddling to make the ability works, all it means is the Rogue in question dealt roughly an extra turn's worth of damage. Assuming they didn't just miss.
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May 8, 2019 19:23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2-f2PAma0o
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May 8, 2019 19:37
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Re: Surprise chat, tattoo caster, and dwarf teamster wizard - It seems like a lot of feedback that's been getting passed out is focused on 'optimal play' so I thought I'd offer a different perspective. Communicate with your table and find a solution that works for everyone and promotes everyone's fun. It's almost like sometimes the DM should just bend rules or make poo poo up on the fly to promote the players having fun. That's what I've always done as a DM/Storyteller. Someone mentioned the improv cliche 'yes, and' - that's a powerful tool for DMing. If there's not a system for what players want to do, make one up. If a player wants to play a non-optimal character for the oddity of it or because it's a cool concept, they should go for it. Maybe it's because I've always played in groups where the story is the important thing, not the loot, or the power; but to me, people that only care to play optimal characters as if there's some way to 'win D&D' really don't get the point of role playing games. Wouldn't everyone end up playing the same like 3-4 builds/classes over and over again?
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May 8, 2019 19:38
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If you read carefully, you'll see that only the advice on Assassin is focused on that, and only because of how incredibly sad the archetype is at everything it does. Telling people not to multiclass or homebrew isn't a powergame thing, it's the opposite: why complicate things? Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 19:43 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 19:41
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You don't need to be optimal but you can't be worthless. You can roleplay well with any possibly character build. You cannot be effective with every possible character build. Piell fucked around with this message at 19:43 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 19:41
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The Mash posted:The surprise rules are written so terribly that the only way to make them workable is by re-adding surprise rounds. Not sure how this still hasn't been corrected. But you are slightly off, and being too kind to the party. The fighters are hidden like the rogue and thus MUST make a stealth check as well. If a goblin succeeds at their passive perception, or active depending on situation, then that goblin is not surprised. Also it is important to roll the first round normally even if the enemy is surprised because position in initiative is extremely important for determining if they are still surprised when the rogue or fighters go.
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May 8, 2019 19:48
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Imo it's okay to be too kind in this game when the players are doing nonmagical things.
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May 8, 2019 19:58
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Ryuujin posted:Not sure how this still hasn't been corrected. But you are slightly off, and being too kind to the party. The fighters are hidden like the rogue and thus MUST make a stealth check as well. If a goblin succeeds at their passive perception, or active depending on situation, then that goblin is not surprised. RAW this isn't correct. "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." If the goblins don't notice the Rogue, regardless of whether the Fighters succeed, then they are surprised. Think of it as the Rogue leading and orchestrating the ambush. The goblins might see the fighters coming at them, but they are still shook by the suddenness of the attack.
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May 8, 2019 20:02
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Marathanes posted:Re: Surprise chat, tattoo caster, and dwarf teamster wizard - It seems like a lot of feedback that's been getting passed out is focused on 'optimal play' so I thought I'd offer a different perspective. Knowing and understanding the rules for this rules-heavy game is important. Refluff things however you want without needlessly reinventing the wheel. Play a character that won't suck the fun out of a group. None of those topics pertain to optimal play.
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May 8, 2019 20:09
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Can anyone recommend a good adventure for new players? I played a decent amount of 3.x, but I've never really DMed before, and my players have never play actual D&D at all (although they are familiar with D&D and D&D-like video games). Looking through the op I'm leaning towards starting with Lost Mines of Phandelver and then going into Storm King's Thunder; I think they'd be up for something like Curse of Strahd or Out of the Abyss, but I want to start them off with something a little more traditional, I guess. Princes of the Apocalypse also seems interesting but I'm a little worried about it being allegedly confusing. Of course I'm going to ask my players what kind of thing they'd like to do, but I just want to make sure I get all my ducks in a row ahead of time.
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May 8, 2019 20:13
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