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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Looking through the episode list and there's a good chunk I haven't seen but they're all ones I've avoided by choice. Will I really benefit by watching the Ronee episodes? She's only in 9 or 10 episodes and there are only a few that really heavily focus on her. In general Season 11 was a very nice return to form after the miasma of despair that was almost all of season 10.
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May 7, 2019 23:22
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Yeah S10 sucks, other than the one from S11 I haven't made it through any Julia Wilcox episodes either
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May 7, 2019 23:28
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Yeah S10 sucks, other than the one from S11 I haven't made it through any Julia Wilcox episodes either Good episodes in Season 10: The Halloween and Christmas episodes, the caviar episode, the day spa one, Freddie's Bar Mitzvah ... and that's it. Otherwise that season sucks out loud in almost every conceivable way. The parking garage episode and the three-parter about Niles' heart attack are physically painful.
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May 8, 2019 00:46
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That's the season their budget got big because suddenly 'make a one-take shot that involves Niles visiting some memories in a hospital as he's carted away' and 'digitally composite Fras and Niles into the episode where Niles and Daph danced' were okayed.
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May 8, 2019 04:11
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Timby posted:Good episodes in Season 10: The Halloween and Christmas episodes, the caviar episode, the day spa one, Freddie's Bar Mitzvah ... and that's it. Otherwise that season sucks out loud in almost every conceivable way. The parking garage episode and the three-parter about Niles' heart attack are physically painful. Niles' impression of Cam Winston is basically a series highlight. The show really did need more Cam Winston.
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May 8, 2019 04:14
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Solice Kirsk posted:Niles' impression of Cam Winston is basically a series highlight. The show really did need more Cam Winston. I feel like Cam Winston was used just right. The gimmick of him being able to out-wit Frasier at every turn would have gotten old with overuse. They were already scraping for ideas when they had Martin and Cam's mother fake being together to gross out their sons.
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May 8, 2019 05:37
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nuclear take: the garage episode is....good and funny
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May 8, 2019 05:41
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Frasier was a fool for letting Captain Picard get away.
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May 8, 2019 06:06
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Beachcomber posted:Frasier was a fool for letting Captain Picard get away. I love how he has to think about it before turning him down.
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May 8, 2019 06:19
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The many gags where people were either wrongly assumed to be gay or pretending to be gay got a lot of laughs out of me, but ultimately left me perplexed as to what the 90s attitude toward homosexuality actually was.
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May 8, 2019 07:24
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"Gay people exist for our amusement" was a huge step up from "gay people are weird and icky", or worse yet, "gay people don't exist at all".
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May 8, 2019 07:34
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Christoph posted:The many gags where people were either wrongly assumed to be gay or pretending to be gay got a lot of laughs out of me, but ultimately left me perplexed as to what the 90s attitude toward homosexuality actually was. The early seasons of Frasier have a lot of gay panic (the second-season episode with the gay KACL manager, who Frasier tries to hook up with Daphne without realizing that the manager is trying to bone Frasier, comes to mind), which thankfully got toned down as the show went on. But if you need an idea of how people thought of homosexuals in the '90s, let me put it this way: It wasn't until 1997 that a majority of Americans approved of interracial marriage (and even then it was an extremely slim majority, something like 50.3 percent). Timby fucked around with this message at 07:39 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 07:35
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Timby posted:the day spa one
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May 8, 2019 09:22
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Timby posted:
It cost Ellen DeGeneres her sitcom at the time; less than 10 years later she became the queen of daytime TV. It's truly remarkable and I mean that sincerely.
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May 8, 2019 09:30
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I seem to recall it being a big deal when Roseanne had a same sex kiss in an episode. It lasted like half a second.
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May 8, 2019 13:40
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Pro-tolerance in 20th century TV wasn't really a thing outside of Very Special Episodes. I think All in the Family had one, the Miami Vice episode "Evan" is the first thing I saw advocating for it, circa 1985. Even then, those messages were few and far between the much more frequent exploitation of gay panic for cheap jokes.
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May 8, 2019 14:30
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Watch Birdcage for the absolute limit of what could be done at the time in Hollywood. The original French movie was from the 1970s, lol
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May 8, 2019 15:11
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Timby posted:The early seasons of Frasier have a lot of gay panic (the second-season episode with the gay KACL manager, who Frasier tries to hook up with Daphne without realizing that the manager is trying to bone Frasier, comes to mind), which thankfully got toned down as the show went on. I think it's a huuuuge stretch to convey anything in that episode as "gay panic", everyone is fine with the station manager being gay and Roz only lets Frasier dig himself a huge hole leading him on because he was being a dick to everyone. Frasier was the butt of all the jokes because of the misunderstanding, nobody was making fun of gay people or homosexuality. If anything I'd say the later episode where Martin pretends to be gay so Frasier can get a date is worse because it leans far more on stereotypes (and the entire premise is Frasier-creep as gently caress).
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May 8, 2019 15:12
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Christoph posted:The many gags where people were either wrongly assumed to be gay or pretending to be gay got a lot of laughs out of me, but ultimately left me perplexed as to what the 90s attitude toward homosexuality actually was. "If a straight person is mistakenly identified as being gay, that would be the worst possible of all outcomes" was the 90s attitude towards homosexuality. Like that one Seinfeld episode where they have to keep tacking on "...not that there's anything wrong with that!" after bemoaning how they have been mistakenly identified as being gay.
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May 8, 2019 15:47
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I think you can argue that it was accurate to how people felt about that stuff at the time, especially with them being desperate to maintain their status and whatnot. I understand someone arguing they could've just not done those jokes and pushed beyond what the rest of the culture was doing. But overall it comes off okay.
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May 8, 2019 16:31
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Yeah, to me it always came off like they just wanted to make absolutely certain the other party knew they wanted to gently caress as opposed to "gay is bad", and it would have been worse if they left that out
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May 8, 2019 16:54
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Solice Kirsk posted:I seem to recall it being a big deal when Roseanne had a same sex kiss in an episode. It lasted like half a second. and that was pretty loving mindblowingly progressive at the time considering how Blue Collar the show was. And now we have queer-coded / same-sex relationships in cartoons -- Star Vs (a Disney Channel show) had one of the secondary characters turn up with a girl and implied a relationship, Bow from reboot She-Ra has two dads, and I'm pretty sure one of the kids on Clarence (cartoon network) had two moms. Trying to remember if anyone on any serious shows/dramas/etc was outright gay. All I can remember is Willow from Buffy finding out she was Bi. Gay was kind of the realm of comedy series (the black aide from Spin City) for a while, probably because it was easy to make effete jokes and play off the audience's discomfort. Hell, Mr. Humphries from Are You Being Served? is a prime example of going right up to the line.
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May 8, 2019 17:36
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FilthyImp posted:Hell, Mr. Humphries from Are You Being Served? is a prime example of going right up to the line. With the ironic part being that Mr. Humphries generally had an active love life and was overall happy with himself and content with his life and work. While all the straight characters were either trapped in unhappy marriages or had bad luck when it came to dating, and were more often than not unsatisfied with their position in life and basically hated their jobs. 
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May 8, 2019 17:47
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Yeah, to me it always came off like they just wanted to make absolutely certain the other party knew they wanted to gently caress as opposed to "gay is bad", and it would have been worse if they left that out The point that it would be worse if they had left that out is kind of my whole point. Tacking on a disclaimer doesn't make the basic premise of the comedy any less homophobic. It's not a big deal, I'm not saying Frasier and Seinfeld are CANCELLED! But someone asked about the 90s view on homosexuality and I was providing an answer. In conclusion, 90s TV was a land of contrasts. Le Cigare Volant!!!!
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May 8, 2019 17:52
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FilthyImp posted:
Well, I mean Jack Tripper right?
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May 8, 2019 17:52
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The first season of Cheers had the episode called The Boys in the Bar where one of Sam's baseball buddies comes out of the closet and everyone is worried Cheers is gonna turn into a gay bar. It was nominated for a primetime emmy as well as an AGLA (Alliance for Gay and Lesbian Artists) and WGA award, winning the latter two. Nearly 30 years later, The Onion AV Club reviewed the episode and found it to be distasteful. v  v
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May 8, 2019 17:54
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That's not exactly shocking.
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May 8, 2019 17:59
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Bloodplay it again posted:Nearly 30 years later, The Onion AV Club reviewed the episode and found it to be distasteful. v Then they manage to get some guys out under a fake last call, Diane outs the REAL gays, and it's like "oh no way these totally normal looking dude my mind is blown!"
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May 8, 2019 18:12
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WampaLord posted:The point that it would be worse if they had left that out is kind of my whole point. Tacking on a disclaimer doesn't make the basic premise of the comedy any less homophobic. as a man who is into dick that has watched all of frasier several times i again must disagree that the comedy in it is homophobic, the closest time being the opera episode with martin i mentioned earlier. the only trans* joke i can remember off the top of my head is also a little cringeworthy but not actually transphobic - "what about your brother niles?" "he's abroad now" "eeesh, that must've hurt" - it's straight up empathizing with someone he assumed had transitioned, even though it's blunt and ineloquent out of the four episodes that deal with mistaken sexuality, literally zero of them make it into a punchline at all, and all of the gay characters are presented as respectable (and generally handsome AF). compare this to friends episodes from like, years later. having so many out gay actors on the show really, really informed frasier for the better and it weakens media criticism to just throw around claims of homophobia when the text really doesn't support it at all (especially if you go "well the fact that the text doesn't support it makes it worse") Bloodplay it again posted:The first season of Cheers had the episode called The Boys in the Bar where one of Sam's baseball buddies comes out of the closet and everyone is worried Cheers is gonna turn into a gay bar. It was nominated for a primetime emmy as well as an AGLA (Alliance for Gay and Lesbian Artists) and WGA award, winning the latter two. this episode is kind of painful to watch these days and it really sucks that diane is 10000% in the right the whole time when she's such a gratingly annoying, generally wrong person for the rest of the series
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May 8, 2019 18:14
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Another Bill posted:Well, I mean Jack Tripper right? I think you may fundamentally misunderstand the premise of Three's Company. e: Billy Crystal apparently played a gay man on Soap in 1977 though so around the same time. A gay father even! GokuGoesSSj69 fucked around with this message at 18:21 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 18:18
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SilvergunSuperman posted:That's not exactly shocking. Oh Norm in particular is bad in the episode (definitely up there with Sam breaking into Diane's apartment in terms of  ) but I mainly wanted to highlight that the Alliance for Gay and Lesbian Artists gave it an award when it came out, yet it wasn't good enough for The A.V. Club 29 years later. At least it shows progression, right?Two of the most recent Frasier episode we watched were the Crane Bros. episode and the chroma Niles/Daphne dancing episode Timby mentioned. The green screen one in particular is strange because flashback episodes are usually filler and exist to allocate budget money towards other things, or maybe someone is out sick, but they decided to spend money on effects instead. Overall it wasn't an awful episode. It's definitely less of a comedy and more of a drama, but the message behind the entire episode was thought-provoking. It's not a great episode for Daphne, though. "Welcome back to the show! We're gonna use old clips for most of your parts." Almost done with season 8. I'm not looking forward to 9 or 10 because I've read too much of this thread. food court bailiff posted:this episode is kind of painful to watch these days and it really sucks that diane is 10000% in the right the whole time when she's such a gratingly annoying, generally wrong person for the rest of the series That's how I felt about Diane all of season 1. Then starting in season 2 she stops being always right. What sucks is that Cheers got popular from season 1 reruns right before season 2 aired (it was third-to-last in ratings out of 70-some shows iirc) and instead of changing the formula, they could have built on the more mellow season 1 characters and people still would have enjoyed it. \/\/\/\/ I think it's more about the events leading up to Sam making that stand. Besides, we're talking about an episode that aired in January, 1983. This is a time when people thought gay people were giving kids AIDS through casual skin contact. Bloodplay it again fucked around with this message at 18:32 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 18:19
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That's the episode where Sam tells his closest friends that if they don't like being in a place where anyone can come and be themselves then they're not welcome there anymore right? Yeah, gently caress that episode.
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May 8, 2019 18:20
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food court bailiff posted:as a man who is into dick that has watched all of frasier several times i again must disagree that the comedy in it is homophobic, the closest time being the opera episode with martin i mentioned earlier. the only trans* joke i can remember off the top of my head is also a little cringeworthy but not actually transphobic - "what about your brother niles?" "he's abroad now" "eeesh, that must've hurt" - it's straight up empathizing with someone he assumed had transitioned, even though it's blunt and ineloquent I was talking about Seinfeld specifically in that example, my man. But your point about Friends is well taken. I do think Frasier was the least homophobic of the 90s shows, I was just talking about the general trend. Scrambled eggs all over my face! What is a boy to do?
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May 8, 2019 18:31
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FilthyImp posted:
I remember a big kerfuffle from when Thirtysomething portrayed two gay men and the advertisers had a collective shitfit
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May 8, 2019 18:31
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WampaLord posted:I was talking about Seinfeld specifically in that example, my man. good christ i'm dumb sometimes 
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May 8, 2019 18:35
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food court bailiff posted:good christ i'm dumb sometimes s'all good man  i'm gonna watch some frasier right now, might start all the way back from season 1 again eta: unbelievable, the one i had queued up was the le cigar volant one s1:e3 - dinner at eight WampaLord fucked around with this message at 18:55 on May 8, 2019 |
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May 8, 2019 18:41
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The “scrambled eggs all over my face” actually refers to gay men spraying their cum all over each other’s faces and then having to deal with the aftermath. Because they’re gay you see like many of the male actors on frasier were.
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May 8, 2019 20:52
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oldpainless posted:The “scrambled eggs all over my face” actually refers to gay men spraying their cum all over each other’s faces and then having to deal with the aftermath. Because they’re gay you see like many of the male actors on frasier were.
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May 8, 2019 21:09
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oldpainless posted:The “scrambled eggs all over my face” actually refers to gay men spraying their cum all over each other’s faces and then having to deal with the aftermath. Because they’re gay you see like many of the male actors on frasier were. But women are the humans who carry eggs YOUR SIMILE MAKES NO SENSE
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May 8, 2019 21:09
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oldpainless posted:The “scrambled eggs all over my face” actually refers to gay men spraying their cum all over each other’s faces and then having to deal with the aftermath. Because they’re gay you see like many of the male actors on frasier were. more like oldeggless
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May 8, 2019 21:29
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