Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
Holden would definitely be one to know about knowingly shielding abusers.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

unseenlibrarian posted:

Holden would definitely be one to know about knowingly shielding abusers.

Yeah, who knew about John?

Oh. Right.

TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Bethesda has, according to scuttlebutt, a real problem with nepotism and seniority. The general notion is "Don't go to Bethesda Softworks expecting upward mobility." Which was less of a problem when they were just making Amerijank RPGs that had little competition, iterating on the same engine over and over. But I think the more they try and stretch outside of that, the more their inability to develop and grow shows.

Especially now that they're chasing industry trends they're already years behind on.

They have been burning through that goodwill lately. Fallout 76 was a mega-oopsie, that phone game with the obnoxious pay to wait times was idiotic.

I'm not saying that they don't have goodwill left. Skyrim 2 will probably release and sell another shitzillion copies but I meet more and more people by the day who went from "buy bethesda day 1" to "meh i'll wait for reviews"

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.
Skyrim was such a huge step backwards from Fallout 3, and Fallout 4 from Skyrim, in everything but graphics. I have no idea how they can gently caress up badly enough to take a step of that size back from Fallout 4.

TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018

Pope Guilty posted:

Skyrim was such a huge step backwards from Fallout 3, and Fallout 4 from Skyrim, in everything but graphics. I have no idea how they can gently caress up badly enough to take a step of that size back from Fallout 4.

Fallout 4 wasn't so much a step back as it was "dude what if we just made it borderlands but you have to scrap every object in the game into parts?"

Instead of an...RPG, we got this weird garbage-scavenging game with minecraft poo poo. It's not so much like they took a step back as they decided to start rollerblading instead of skateboarding.

Zereth
Jul 9, 2003



Pope Guilty posted:

Skyrim was such a huge step backwards from Fallout 3, and Fallout 4 from Skyrim, in everything but graphics. I have no idea how they can gently caress up badly enough to take a step of that size back from Fallout 4.
You, uh, heard about Fallout 76, right?

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

They have been burning through that goodwill lately. Fallout 76 was a mega-oopsie, that phone game with the obnoxious pay to wait times was idiotic.

Fallout Shelter was a Tiny Tower clone that occasionally decides that raiders show up, knock over a vault door, and ruin your poo poo because you're busy at work. Which is, uh, directly in conflict which Tiny Tower's timer-based mogul charm from four years before Shelter. But it made a zillion dollars, so what do I know?

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 16:59 on May 9, 2019

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS
Bethesda fooled me twice, once with Morrowind and again with Oblivion. You can't get fooled a third time.

Zurui
Apr 20, 2005
Even now...



Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Bethesda fooled me twice, once with Morrowind and again with Oblivion. You can't get fooled a third time.

Yes, but only because there's a bug in the quest that glitches out if you try and do it again.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Pope Guilty posted:

Skyrim was such a huge step backwards from Fallout 3, and Fallout 4 from Skyrim, in everything but graphics. I have no idea how they can gently caress up badly enough to take a step of that size back from Fallout 4.
I thought Skyrim was a pretty elegant refinement of what had come before, tbh. The mechanics were clean and simple enough that they essentially vanished; that way the whole open-world exploration could take over. It was opened to more casual players, which is probably why it became part of common culture.

jakodee
Mar 4, 2019

Pope Guilty posted:

Skyrim was such a huge step backwards from Fallout 3, and Fallout 4 from Skyrim, in everything but graphics. I have no idea how they can gently caress up badly enough to take a step of that size back from Fallout 4.

Fallout 3 was a pathetic attempt to copy an actual rpg, Skyrim was an excellent open world-exploration game. Fallout 4 was an unremarkable looter-shooter.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


All Bethesda games after Oblivion are the worst garbage slap-in-the-gamer's-face because they don't have Athletics skills that only go to 100 unless you poke it lightly with a stick and make it go to 200.

Punkinhead
Apr 2, 2015

I'm kind of a grognard admittedly, so the myriad of skills and shrinking of the map from Daggerfall to Skyrim really doesn't make me happy. But even I have to admit Skyrim is TES reduced down to an enjoyable, easily digestible, and serviceably immersive world. It's really hard not to enjoy it, even if it is a tiny version of what it could have been.

Things like the climbing/language skills from Daggerfall would have made it wonderful to explore, and the spell creation system from Oblivion should have been expanded, not scrapped. Tons of little things like that.

jakodee posted:

Fallout 3 was a pathetic attempt to copy an actual rpg, Skyrim was an excellent open world-exploration game. Fallout 4 was an unremarkable looter-shooter.

There is not a more correct post on the forums.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Sion posted:

scion posted:

I fully expected to see a dreaded Page XX that just got missed (maybe because it was rendered as pg. XX rather than p. X or pp. XX, so a find and replace missed it)

Just wanna go back to this for a sec. This is a pet peeve of mine. How is this industry still full of people using sophisticated authoring environments and none of them seem to know that there have been cross-reference features available in everything since like 1995 at the latest? There's just no excuse for having a placeholder instead of an xref element in the text. No search/replace should be needed, no manual updating of page numbers. If the xref target moves, the page number auto-updates.

If someone doesn't know that this is a thing, I feel like that's kind of a flag that they're using an application that they've never been trained on or bothered to spend a few days doing tutorials with. This should never be the case for someone being paid to do work on a professional text product. I know RPG work is horribly underpaid, but given the availability of free training on everything these days, I don't accept that as an excuse any more. This guy is doing publication work with tools that he doesn't know how to use. The rest of his whining about how hard it is stems directly from that basic problem.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Fallout Shelter was a Tiny Tower clone that occasionally decides that raiders show up, knock over a vault door, and ruin your poo poo because you're busy at work. Which is, uh, directly in conflict which Tiny Tower's timer-based mogul charm from four years before Shelter. But it made a zillion dollars, so what do I know?

I think they're referring to Blades, which is in an early-access-but-we'll-still-take-your-money stage. The most developed mechanic in it is waiting between five minutes and six hours for the privilege of opening loot crates you pick up in the game. You can spend IRL money to open them sooner!

DocBubonic
Mar 11, 2003

Tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Fallout Shelter was a Tiny Tower clone that occasionally decides that raiders show up, knock over a vault door, and ruin your poo poo because you're busy at work. Which is, uh, directly in conflict which Tiny Tower's timer-based mogul charm from four years before Shelter. But it made a zillion dollars, so what do I know?

I play Fallout Shelter currently. Raiders only show up if you're playing the game. If you're not playing the game raiders don't show up. And that is only one minor part of the game. I'm thinking that you are remembering a different game like what Nuns with Guns has said.

Punkinhead
Apr 2, 2015

It's actually a lot harder to list what Bethesda has done right since Morrowind. Horse armor DLC in Oblivion, paid mods with Skyrim, lying about the cloth skyrim map, lying about the canvas Fallout bag, lovely Nuka Rum, Fallout 4 bugs being present in Fallout 76, and now literally plagiarizing DnD.

TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018

PinheadSlim posted:

It's actually a lot harder to list what Bethesda has done right since Morrowind. Horse armor DLC in Oblivion, paid mods with Skyrim, lying about the cloth skyrim map, lying about the canvas Fallout bag, lovely Nuka Rum, Fallout 4 bugs being present in Fallout 76, and now literally plagiarizing DnD.

Lying abput FO3's 200 endings..

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Leperflesh posted:


Just wanna go back to this for a sec. This is a pet peeve of mine. How is this industry still full of people using sophisticated authoring environments and none of them seem to know that there have been cross-reference features available in everything since like 1995 at the latest? There's just no excuse for having a placeholder instead of an xref element in the text. No search/replace should be needed, no manual updating of page numbers. If the xref target moves, the page number auto-updates.

If someone doesn't know that this is a thing, I feel like that's kind of a flag that they're using an application that they've never been trained on or bothered to spend a few days doing tutorials with. This should never be the case for someone being paid to do work on a professional text product. I know RPG work is horribly underpaid, but given the availability of free training on everything these days, I don't accept that as an excuse any more. This guy is doing publication work with tools that he doesn't know how to use. The rest of his whining about how hard it is stems directly from that basic problem.

These things aren't written by a single person. Page XX is there because the PDF is put together from between five and 20 Google Docs, Word documents and other freelancer communications before becoming a PDF, and those people write in Page XX because they don't even know where the thing they're referencing is going to be.

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*
To be honest the thing that leapt out at me about it was that apparently he was searching for 'pg XX' so he missed 'p. xx' and 'pp. xx' when he should have just searched for 'xx'.

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
There was no page XX reference in the final draft, for the record, so that was mostly just Neall rambling about his fears

Ewen Cluney
May 8, 2012

Ask me about
Japanese elfgames!
Jessica Price posted a Twitter thread about some of the bullshit she saw at Paizo and wow.

https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1126549212609441792?s=21

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Mors Rattus posted:

These things aren't written by a single person. Page XX is there because the PDF is put together from between five and 20 Google Docs, Word documents and other freelancer communications before becoming a PDF, and those people write in Page XX because they don't even know where the thing they're referencing is going to be.

Yeah multi-author environments do add an additional element, but standard tools exist to cope with this, too. You shouldn't have to rely on authors typing XX or something and then hoping that nobody makes an error so your search for those will work right.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
Leperflesh does technical documentation for a living IIRC so frankly, he knows what he's talking about and John Q. Gamer probably doesn't.

Hell LP you should probably make a PDF of "how to write an RPG book with free documentation tools" and put it on DriveThru for 5 bucks, you might help a few of these poor souls.

Kestral
Nov 24, 2000

Forum Veteran

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Leperflesh does technical documentation for a living IIRC so frankly, he knows what he's talking about and John Q. Gamer probably doesn't.

Hell LP you should probably make a PDF of "how to write an RPG book with free documentation tools" and put it on DriveThru for 5 bucks, you might help a few of these poor souls.

At that price point, I'd buy it and I don't even intend to publish anything.

01011001
Dec 26, 2012

Kestral posted:

At that price point, I'd buy it and I don't even intend to publish anything.

Seriously, please do. I'm getting somewhat experienced at this but can certainly benefit from learning more.

PST
Jul 5, 2012

If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Ewen Cluney posted:

Jessica Price posted a Twitter thread about some of the bullshit she saw at Paizo and wow.



Quite apart from Paizo being Paizo, Ninja Division look thoroughly hosed.

I knew they'd screwed up a bunch of times but I didn't realise that amounts to X million (looks like 1.5 mil outstanding costs on 3 mil of pre-orders).

As of a couple of weeks ago Erik Mona at Paizo was still posting that he had faith in ND delivering something and being optimistic, albeit in a really weird way (they took nearly half a million to make starfinder miniatures and, well, haven't)

quote:


I wanted to drop by to share a conundrum, and to share a bit of my perspective on affairs of the last week.

The conundrum is this: Throughout this process with Ninja Division, but after we realized they were going to have significant difficulties pulling this project across the finish line, there have been numerous behind-the-scenes developments or potential fixes that we have heard about, but that have not come to fruition.

That sort of thing puts us in a difficult place regarding communications. Do we share our sense of hope, only to have it dashed again when something doesn't come through? That's certainly a dilemma that has played into us not being as frequent with updates in the past as we should have been.

I don't want to get people's hopes up, even if I see signs of incremental progress behind the scenes. I hope you all can understand that when we make an announcement regarding this project, we want to be EXTRA CERTAIN that we understand the details and have faith that they are going to occur before sharing them in public.

So I don't have details to convey, and I don't want to give the impression that a solution is in sight or that it looks like the project is back on the road or whatever.

But I DO want to share that, behind the scenes, we have seen a LOT of evidence--especially since the GAMA Trade Show--that Ninja Division is actively working to move the project forward and find solutions for their many difficulties.

I have proof that these guys ARE trying, and some of that is encouraging. I don't want to say more than that, but I do want you guys to know and understand that much at least.

Thanks for your continuing patience, or at least for your continuing attention.

Notably, on Paizo's forums they were being asked if the wizkids miniatures were going to be the same as the ones they'd backed Ninja Division for pre-paints and the answer was pretty classic avoidance.

Meanwhile over at the starfinder miniature kickstarter and directly from ND's statement...

quote:

After a rocky start to the year, we are currently exploring new opportunities to move the Starfinder Miniatures Kickstarter forward. We don’t have any major announcements to make on that front, but want to give you visibility on what we’re working on:

Financing: We are working with investment groups to find the right financial partners to fulfill our obligations and move Ninja Division forward. We have several options for moving the resin line forward and hope to be able to reveal more details as our plans finalize.
Manufacturing: We are in discussions with other resin manufacturers to make the transition more affordable and attractive for investors.
Logistics: We are looking into more economical shipping methods to help cut costs of fulfillment. More US based manufacturing will be a significant help on that front.
Promotions: We are working toward releasing premium products from our other product lines to put profits towards manageable bites of outstanding Kickstarter content. These special minis and offers for fans of our other games will generate revenue and allow us to begin moving forward.

That's also on top of them having fired all their staff other than a sales and marketing manager.

And here's what they claim their current liabilities look like:



And google suggests that a number of State AGs have been getting complaints about ND/Soda Pop minatures. Given the timeline of their sending a letter to the Idaho and Washington AGs, together with the sudden rush of communication after a distinct lack of it for some time, it looks as if that's them attempting to stay ahead of any legal issues:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/business/article225926555.html#storylink=readmore_inline

PST fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 10, 2019

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Ewen Cluney posted:

Jessica Price posted a Twitter thread about some of the bullshit she saw at Paizo and wow.

https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1126549212609441792?s=21

The point about how they're now turning to Kickstarter to fund poo poo which really should be part of their day to day operations really feels worth emphasising. Sounds like the grognard bubble has well and truly burst for them.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Ewen Cluney posted:

Jessica Price posted a Twitter thread about some of the bullshit she saw at Paizo and wow.

https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1126549212609441792?s=21

With added bonus of my god Ninja Division. 3 million and bupkis.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

I actually completely forgot about Pathfinder Online. Is that still going or did they finally pull the plug?

xiw
Sep 25, 2011

i wake up at night
night action madness nightmares
maybe i am scum

Cpig Haiku contest 2020 winner

Evil Mastermind posted:

I actually completely forgot about Pathfinder Online. Is that still going or did they finally pull the plug?

they are working on great new features like being able to turn off PVP which is pretty funny given that that was Dancey's non-negotiable line.

PST
Jul 5, 2012

If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Evil Mastermind posted:

I actually completely forgot about Pathfinder Online. Is that still going or did they finally pull the plug?

https://goblinworks.com/blog/

Their twitter was last active in December, so some form of lifesupport for something that was effectively dead 4+ years ago.

https://twitter.com/PFO_Paizo/status/1075914949723996160

TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018

Warthur posted:

The point about how they're now turning to Kickstarter to fund poo poo which really should be part of their day to day operations really feels worth emphasising. Sounds like the grognard bubble has well and truly burst for them.

I dunno, Goodman Games literally funds EVERYTHING via Kickstarter despite sales being high..

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Leperflesh does technical documentation for a living IIRC so frankly, he knows what he's talking about and John Q. Gamer probably doesn't.

Hell LP you should probably make a PDF of "how to write an RPG book with free documentation tools" and put it on DriveThru for 5 bucks, you might help a few of these poor souls.

I've thought about doing this, actually; but it'd be pretty ballsy to claim expertise while never having even attempted to write & publish a RPG product. So I'd have to do some proper research and talk to a bunch of professional game publishers; my standards for something I'd print with my name on it are way way higher than just talking poo poo in a forums post.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

I dunno, Goodman Games literally funds EVERYTHING via Kickstarter despite sales being high..

It kind of seems to be how a lot of companies keep going really. Not exactly what I'd call a burn towards them. Given the tiny size of the D&D team, Paizo's can't really be any bigger right?

PST
Jul 5, 2012

If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Arthil posted:

It kind of seems to be how a lot of companies keep going really. Not exactly what I'd call a burn towards them. Given the tiny size of the D&D team, Paizo's can't really be any bigger right?



Wayback to the rescue, this was last year, they've taken the page down for some reason but this was what their old contact list for staff looked like.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180301190454/https://paizo.com/paizo/contact

PST fucked around with this message at 01:36 on May 10, 2019

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


PST posted:

https://goblinworks.com/blog/

Their twitter was last active in December, so some form of lifesupport for something that was effectively dead 4+ years ago.

https://twitter.com/PFO_Paizo/status/1075914949723996160

The last "big" thing I think was Lisa Stevens basically telling everyone at GenCon her incredibly sad but also still very unlikely wishlist, which included one of my favorite things about PFO so far:

quote:

They might be able to pay some artists to finish Gnomes. 

No one's posted anything in the PFO thread here since December, this game is so lifeless.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry

Leperflesh posted:

I've thought about doing this, actually; but it'd be pretty ballsy to claim expertise while never having even attempted to write & publish a RPG product. So I'd have to do some proper research and talk to a bunch of professional game publishers; my standards for something I'd print with my name on it are way way higher than just talking poo poo in a forums post.

Kevin Crawford did produce this and it's free

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons

Basically, a way to mimic the little brown book style with templates and commentary, but a lot of the points he makes are good for any gaming book layout.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



Leperflesh posted:

my standards for something I'd print with my name on it are way way higher than just talking poo poo in a forums post.

Your forums posts are more professional than the industry's publishing standards. Just write up 16 or 32 pages on the Oxford comma, why "OPPONENT LOSES NEXT TURN" can be misread as an auto-win, and some other stupidly dumb common mistakes writers make by refusing to blind playtest or revise anything.

Robin Laws John Wick made a career out of publishing dubious DM advice in a snarky tone. Luke Crane wizard-splains games to hipsters. Meanwhile, you're sitting on actually useful information that will make the industry better.

Just put something out there. If you're unhappy with it, do a second edition next year.

moths fucked around with this message at 11:37 on May 10, 2019

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually
PFO was just the dumbest loving idea. The failure rate of MMOs is incredibly high, they cost a ton of money to get off the ground, Paizo's IP is several orders of magnitude less popular than Conan or Middle Earth (whose MMO's didn't exactly set the world on fire), and the guy they put in charge of it had just gotten run out of running one of the few successful MMOs when his decisions drove it into the ground. Sounds like an excellent bet-the-company move!

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply