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CIGNX posted:What's up with the Saudi's? Is there something weird about the F-15SA or are you talking about the pilots? Presumably it is related to the extreme nepotism that is present in their military as well as general poor training, so they could literally be flying F-22s and I don't think it would make them any more effective.
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May 9, 2019 07:46
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The entire saudi military is a complete joke
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May 9, 2019 07:53
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Hauldren Collider posted:Wait, what? How was that an issue? This is like when my dad emailed over the weekend to ask if an Apache was better than a Cobra. Why couldn’t he just ask which was better between Blue Thunder and Airwolf. (Airwolf, obvs)
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May 9, 2019 11:41
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Godholio posted:You've got air superiority, interception, CAS, SEAD, long-range strike (which goes by a bunch of names), defensive counterair (DCA), naval strike (again, several names), self-escort strike, etc. How come? Whats so poo poo about the eurofighter besides the cost?
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May 9, 2019 12:13
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Some parts of the Saudi military are reasonably competent (pilots and air defense) mainly because they get most of the resources and attention due to wasta. Their maneuver forces are wtf bad even by second rate military standards.
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May 9, 2019 14:16
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thesurlyspringKAA posted:The entire saudi military is a complete joke Someone post the, "Day #1 of Training - Bury your Rifle so you don't have to take part in training" story.
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May 9, 2019 14:59
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Godholio posted:Yeah we had that conversation monthly. I assume it was something along the lines of "we don't have a record of that country, stop kidding around where are these planes registered?"
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May 9, 2019 15:14
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CIGNX posted:What's up with the Saudi's? Is there something weird about the F-15SA or are you talking about the pilots? Having "worked" with the Saudi pilots both in the US and in Saudi... they are almost all ultra-wealthy daddy's boys that think they are the cats meow. They whine about everything when in training. They whine about everything when not in training. They don't pay attention when being given instruction. They don't want your help. They don't really care about much of anything other than being able to fly.
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May 9, 2019 15:28
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Surprise Giraffe posted:How come? Whats so poo poo about the eurofighter besides the cost? Right now? Overall reliability. Avionics are a bit dated for the costs (Tranche 3 and 3a fixes most of these), the engines are really not up to spec with say the F414's or similar... More or less the entire plane was designed and built fully by committee and it shows. Its a GOOD plane, its not a GREAT plane. It is most assuredly not a 110+ million dollar plane.
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May 9, 2019 15:38
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Ug, I guess we know what Canada is getting then 
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May 9, 2019 15:39
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EvilMerlin posted:Having "worked" with the Saudi pilots both in the US and in Saudi... they are almost all ultra-wealthy daddy's boys that think they are the cats meow. Right, okay, but what about the Saudi Pilots?
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May 9, 2019 15:40
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Neophyte posted:Brewing tea Every British fighter since the Spitfire has been fitted with a Boiling Vessel. In terms of crew comfort and therefore long term sustainment, the British fighter will always win.
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May 9, 2019 15:53
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Being born a prince does not necessarily make one a good pilot. Obviously an oversimplification but there is a lot of nepotism in their prestige forces. AF/And recently missiles.
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May 9, 2019 15:55
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Alaan posted:Being born a prince does not necessarily make one a good pilot. And in the past being a prince didn't teach them horsemanship or seamanship but that never stopped them before.
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May 9, 2019 15:58
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A pail of boiling water sounds like the last thing you'd want to have in the cockpit of your jet fighter
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May 9, 2019 16:00
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slothrop posted:Every British fighter since the Spitfire has been fitted with a Boiling Vessel. In terms of crew comfort and therefore long term sustainment, the British fighter will always win. I thought those were only put in the land vehicles?
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May 9, 2019 16:09
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Surprise Giraffe posted:How come? Whats so poo poo about the eurofighter besides the cost? The Typhoon was designed as an interceptor according to the doctrine and wishes of Germany and the UK (Spain and Italy were a lot less influential). Its objective was to climb high and fast and then shoot down Warsaw Pact fighters crossing the border. The Typhoon is pretty good at what it's meant to do; the problem is that what it's meant to do is no longer relevant. So now they're trying to retrofit it into a fully multirole aircraft, but it still has several drawbacks, that didn't matter in its role as an interceptor but that are important for everything else. For example, with its intake and gear design, it'll never be able to be a good ground pounder. In particular, it lacks fuselage hardpoints that could be used for an LDP. There's only the ventral hardpoint, because the other fuselage points are profiled for missiles and can't accept anything else than AMRAAMs and Meteors (the Meteor had to have the same diameter as the AMRAAM specifically so that the Typhoon could carry it in these recessed points), so you get in a situation where it's "heavy bomb, drop tank, designation pod: choose one" and that really sucks.
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May 9, 2019 16:30
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Davin Valkri posted:I thought those were only put in the land vehicles? No, you see, pilots have arms and airplanes land, which makes airplanes armored land vehicles. Of course, by the transitive property of  tanks are flying wings as well.
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May 9, 2019 16:43
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EvilMerlin posted:Right now? Cat Mattress posted:The Typhoon was designed as an interceptor according to the doctrine and wishes of Germany and the UK (Spain and Italy were a lot less influential). Its objective was to climb high and fast and then shoot down Warsaw Pact fighters crossing the border. The Typhoon is pretty good at what it's meant to do; the problem is that what it's meant to do is no longer relevant. So now they're trying to retrofit it into a fully multirole aircraft, but it still has several drawbacks, that didn't matter in its role as an interceptor but that are important for everything else. So it sucks at AA vs the f15 because the engine isn't as good is what I'm hearing. That's all I was wondering really Surprise Giraffe fucked around with this message at 16:46 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 16:44
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Morbid interest question. When the US took flamethrowers out of service after Vietnam, what replaced them in terms of similar utility for situations when a flamethrower would normally be employed?
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May 9, 2019 17:11
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MazelTovCocktail posted:Morbid interest question. When the US took flamethrowers out of service after Vietnam, what replaced them in terms of similar utility for situations when a flamethrower would normally be employed? Cluster munitions and thermobaric/fuel air explosives.
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May 9, 2019 17:16
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Wikipedia says that we use a rocket launcher now, one that fires rockets filled with a napalm-like substance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M202_FLASH?wprov=sfla1
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May 9, 2019 17:17
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MazelTovCocktail posted:Morbid interest question. When the US took flamethrowers out of service after Vietnam, what replaced them in terms of similar utility for situations when a flamethrower would normally be employed? Nominally the M202 FLASH. Practically, nothing.
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May 9, 2019 17:17
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Flamethrowers are mostly useful for killing people in enclosed spaces via carbon monoxide poisoning. The property of setting things on fire is not as important. So other weapons like fuel-air bombs (aka thermobarics) that are useful against bunkers and caves and such take their place.
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May 9, 2019 17:18
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Godholio posted:You've got air superiority, interception, CAS, SEAD, long-range strike (which goes by a bunch of names), defensive counterair (DCA), naval strike (again, several names), self-escort strike, etc. The typhoon is a twin engine jet so it is surprising to me that its peformance would be closer to an F-16. Is it not a mach 2 jet like the eagle?
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May 9, 2019 17:21
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MazelTovCocktail posted:Morbid interest question. When the US took flamethrowers out of service after Vietnam, what replaced them in terms of similar utility for situations when a flamethrower would normally be employed? The M141 (or the SMAW for the marines) is what you use to wreck a bunker. If you just want to light something on fire you can use an incendiary grenade.
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May 9, 2019 17:24
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What if I want to smell victory in the morning?
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May 9, 2019 17:25
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Hauldren Collider posted:The typhoon is a twin engine jet so it is surprising to me that its peformance would be closer to an F-16. Is it not a mach 2 jet like the eagle? The engines in the Typhoon are quite a bit smaller and less powerful than what the F-16 uses. You get two of them though. Together, they make more power than a Viper, but not in the same league as an F-15, Su-27, or F-22.
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May 9, 2019 17:27
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Back Hack posted:Right, okay, but what about the Saudi Pilots? Exactly what I was thinking.
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May 9, 2019 18:16
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aphid_licker posted:EUS Graf Zeppelin, carrying navalized Eurofighters and a cruiser armament of dual 20cm turrets I still love how in the original design, a note that said "we should put the cruiser cannons in double (dual) turrets to save weight" transformed into "we should double the number of cruiser cannons and turrets."
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May 9, 2019 18:42
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Cat Mattress posted:The Typhoon was designed as an interceptor according to the doctrine and wishes of Germany and the UK (Spain and Italy were a lot less influential). Its objective was to climb high and fast and then shoot down Warsaw Pact fighters crossing the border. The Typhoon is pretty good at what it's meant to do; the problem is that what it's meant to do is no longer relevant. Are you sure? This is literally what UK ones spend half their time doing (stopping short of the shooting down bit) whenever Russia feels like playing footsie with UK airspace. Bombing useless dirt doesn't really need its A game by contrast.
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May 9, 2019 22:42
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feedmegin posted:Are you sure? This is literally what UK ones spend half their time doing (stopping short of the shooting down bit) whenever Russia feels like playing footsie with UK airspace. Bombing useless dirt doesn't really need its A game by contrast. The tornado is retired so the bombing role is going to...
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May 10, 2019 01:05
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TCD posted:The tornado is retired so the bombing role is going to... Well, the obvious answer is, “The F-35A” Next best is some form of F-15. I can see why those answers are less than palatable to France, Germany and friends though. It’s doable but they will have to accept that the per unit cost will be much higher for what will likely be less capability.
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May 10, 2019 01:18
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Cat Mattress posted:The Typhoon was designed as an interceptor according to the doctrine and wishes of Germany and the UK (Spain and Italy were a lot less influential). Its objective was to climb high and fast and then shoot down Warsaw Pact fighters crossing the border. The Typhoon is pretty good at what it's meant to do; the problem is that what it's meant to do is no longer relevant. We send those buggers up to chase off Russian Bears every other bloody week, or at least we were a year ago.
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May 10, 2019 01:19
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https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/joann-morgan-nasa-apollo-11-interview/quote:What were some of the things you were entrusted with as an instrumentation controller?
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May 10, 2019 02:43
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CIGNX posted:What's up with the Saudi's? Is there something weird about the F-15SA or are you talking about the pilots? Pilots. Probably maintainers, but that's just an assumption.
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May 10, 2019 02:45
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Surprise Giraffe posted:So it sucks at AA vs the f15 because the engine isn't as good is what I'm hearing. That's all I was wondering really You're exaggerating and oversimplifying. Hauldren Collider posted:The typhoon is a twin engine jet so it is surprising to me that its peformance would be closer to an F-16. Is it not a mach 2 jet like the eagle? Maneuverability, range, and probably radar size are going to be more comparable to the F-16. Mach 2 is thirsty business, and tough to maintain in combat. Godholio fucked around with this message at 02:53 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 02:50
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Hey does anyone have the story about some older aircraft dog-fighting a newer one in training and using a Nuclear AA rocket against it? I think it was an F-14 and some older jet, story was told by the pilot or co-pilot.
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May 10, 2019 04:39
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Akion posted:Hey does anyone have the story about some older aircraft dog-fighting a newer one in training and using a Nuclear AA rocket against it? I think it was an F-14 and some older jet, story was told by the pilot or co-pilot. "DARTS vs VIPERS Two Air Defense Interceptor Pilots vs Two Tactical Fighter Pilots By S. Michael Townsend, LTC, USAF (Ret.) “Viper 1, Pierre, Bucko, Genie, FMO, Rafsob” Circa 1984 I was a Captain stationed at Tyndall AFB as an F-106 Instructor. This day my wingman, a fellow Captain and Instructor, and I were scheduled for Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) with two F-16s from Shaw AFB. I was to be the Instructor for the training on the Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Range (ACMI) over the Gulf of Mexico, a highly accurate tracking system that would record all maneuvers in the airspace by the aircraft, score all shots taken and simulate any kills. None of us had ever fought against the other type fighter. Tactical Air Command pilots considered Air Defense pilots a lesser breed. I started the preflight briefing after introductions with the Lieutenant Colonel (LTC) and his wingman a Lieutenant (LT). The LTC immediately interrupted and informed me that he had no idea why they were scheduled for DACT with aircraft that were far inferior to the F-16 and that it would not be much of a challenge for them resulting in very little effective training. He stated that we should engage with full up all weapons capability for both fighter types even stating that though they only had heaters (heat seeking missiles) and guns he saw no disadvantage for them. I hid the fact that he had pissed us off and verified that he meant for us to use the full weapons capability of the F-106. He replied, of course you can! Obviously he had no idea what we carried between our legs, a clueless state of mind! I smiled as I looked at my wingman while stroking the inside of my thigh; this pecker checker was going to get hammered when the Genie popped up! I briefed the LTC to take his flight to the farthest most southern point of the airspace and be prepared to attack the coastline that we would defend. We would place ourselves on “Five” (five minute alert) and scramble when we saw him takeoff giving him the advantage of being ready when we arrived. I told him to be sure to look at the F-106 ramp on takeoff to verify that we there on “Five” and this would be important during the debrief. We briefed two engagements followed by join up for 1v1 basic fighter maneuvers (BFM), him versus me and the wingmen against each other. The fun began as they lifted off and saw us on the edge of the ramp, “communicating”, with a raised finger over two rising moons! We had a hard time getting our crew chiefs to stop laughing so we could launch. A gate (full afterburner) climb to 41,000 feet put us in the airspace in 6 minutes when I called “fight’s on”! I felt sorry for my wingman because he would not get a shot on this first engagement. One minute later I called “Fox 3, KILL, two F-16s north bound at 18,000 feet. Nock- it off, nock-it off, fights over, return to your safe area,” was immediately passed to the Viper pilots. The LTC was so confused that the ground control intercept (GCI) controller had to tell him he had been shot by a “NUC” (Genie nuclear tipped rocket) and that him and his wingman were DEAD so return to your point! I told GCI to inform him that we had one more Genie but that we wouldn’t use it on the next engagement. Score: Darts 2, Vipers 0 I put my wingman in four mile trail as we began the next engagement from 41,000 feet at 1.2 MACH racing down to their altitude of 18,000 feet, dumb a - - he didn’t even change his altitude to make it harder on us. Since they had face heaters (firing heat seekers in our face), we cooled our jets by retarding the engines to idle power to cool them off and denying the face shot while maintaining supersonic on our downhill slide. They took the bait, the leader rolled out behind me, the wingman behind mine. We had them right where we wanted them! Not even an F-16 can sustain a climb followed by a 9 G turn and roll out 2 miles behind a supersonic target and chase them down so the missile will make the kill. The leader found himself in front of my wingman who easily “Doe popped” him with two missiles while outrunning the F-16 wingman. Score: Darts 1, Vipers 0 After a fuel check we split for 1v1 BFM. Starting from line abreast each fighter turns 45 degrees away from the other to gain spacing. At the fight’s on call the fighters turn toward each other passing canopy to canopy with no advantage. The knife fight begins in earnest as they turn to gain six o’clock on the other for a guns kill. Hands are helpful in explaining what happens next. Obviously the Viper can out turn a Dart and the LTC was behind me closing for guns! My next maneuver required exact timing or it would turn out all bad. As he closed for the shot I presented him with the infamous “F-106 Barn Door”. This is a frightening experience for anyone who has never seen the Dart act in such an unbelievable aerodynamic manner. Never attempt this maneuver at home as it should only be done by a highly trained and experienced Dart driver! With him captured solidly at my six, in a hard four G turn, closing for the kill, fangs out and dripping, I held the G while applying full opposite rudder. The Dart responds beautifully with an opposite direction roll through the vertical to a full nose down dive where I apply full afterburner and dash for the deck. From the Viper’s cockpit it looked just like someone opened a barn door in his face, nowhere to go and no idea what to do. Suddenly the Dart disappears. His only option was to call nock-it off because he lost sight having never squeezed the trigger. Meanwhile our wingman had to nock-it off because the LT was low on fuel. Score: Darts 0, Vipers 0 I sent the Vipers home and my wingman and I played for a while. My debriefing was short and sweet. The Fighter pilots had to fly again to get some real training. It went something like this: Know your enemy. Never underestimate your enemy. Never enter a gun fight with a knife. Never engage an enemy when you don’t have a clue. Lose sight lose the fight. Pecker checkers should be well endowed. When the Genie pops up, you’re goanna die! Nothing was ever said about the moons, I believe we “communicated” effectively! Final Score: Darts 3, Vipers 0 America remained safe from attack!! S. Michael Townsend, LTC, USAF Ret. “Viper 1, Pierre, Bucko, Genie, FMO, Rafsob”
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May 10, 2019 04:41
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Akion posted:Hey does anyone have the story about some older aircraft dog-fighting a newer one in training and using a Nuclear AA rocket against it? I think it was an F-14 and some older jet, story was told by the pilot or co-pilot. It was an F-106 vs F-16s. Here you go! https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/51hl3m/f106_vs_f16/ wkarma fucked around with this message at 04:49 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 04:43
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