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Marathanes posted:Sentinel isn't needed given Cav gets essentially the same thing at level 10 (if I could talk a DM into letting me refund it at 10, then I would consider taking it earlier, because 10 is a ways from where most campaigns start). Wait, does 5e not have feat retraining? That can't be right.
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May 10, 2019 02:19
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Not to the best of my knowledge, but I'll admit my knowledge could be deficient.
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May 10, 2019 02:23
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Gharbad the Weak posted:Wait, does 5e not have feat retraining? That can't be right. It never stole that from 3.5
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May 10, 2019 02:31
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Marathanes posted:Preferably both, but I'd lean more towards getting punched in the face than punching things in the face. That said, though I may not always agree with your viewpoint, you always have interesting things to say and are quite knowledgeable and insightful (especially into ways that I don't often play), so I'll take any input you have either way. Prefacing that every martial character should be dealing damage... Ancestral Guardian Barb has good defender mechanics just baked into the archetype, no fiddling required. Totem Barbarian's 14th level Bear ability is very good, but comes in late. Still, paired with Sentinel for stickiness and 3rd level Bear for resistance to all damage, you've got yourself a tank. PAM Cavalier, no need to explain it, works with either Shield+Stick or Glaive. Doesn't take Sentinel. Battle Master, PAM+Sentinel, rest into STR. Wants the Glaive reach. Does control with judicious application of the PAM+Sentinel(+Trip) combo and also Goading/Menacing attack. Paladin: Warding Bond is something you want cast on you, not by you. Crown is bad. Compelled Duel and Champion Challenge are bad abilities. You are already going to be taking the most damage for being a loving scary paladin, so you don't need the ability to waste your reactions causing yourself more unmitigated damage. Their only ability of any worth is the mass healing word. You know what the best Defender Paladin is? Vengeance with PAM+Sentinel+Resilient(CON) that casts Haste on themselves - you have the mobility and actions to be everywhere, enemy walks into your reach and you smack n stop and then get to relocate 30ft wherever you want, move your aura of protection where people need it. And while doing all this you're also nearly if not the best direct damage dealer in the team with your big radiant stick. Conquest does okay with the Fear lockdown shenanigans and Ancients gets the spell damage resistance aura, but Haste is so good. Also don't dump CHA on a paladin, that's silly; Aura of Protection is the best group defense ability in the system.
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May 10, 2019 02:37
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Ok, I have a feeling my table would rule PAM wouldn't work with a shield. Still worth it without a shield on a straight Cav? Or at that point is the BM PAM + Sentinel a better choice? I just enjoy the idea of mechanics that defend other members of the party, which is why I asked the question. A character like a warder out of the Wheel of Time series would be interesting to play in a way. Currently playing a Vengeance Paladin + GWM + Fell Handed (with a magic maul) in OotA and I can see what you mean about being a tank just by virtue of being a damage monster. You don't need Sentinel or defender mechanics when you're the biggest scariest MF'er on the field I guess (doesn't hurt that my other frontliner is a Zealot Barb). No Haste yet (only level 8) but I have a feeling I'm going to get mean here next level.
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May 10, 2019 03:01
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Marathanes posted:Ok, I have a feeling my table would rule PAM wouldn't work with a shield. Imagine you're holding a spear in an overhead grip:  What happens if, instead of thrusting, you swung it down like it was a club?
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May 10, 2019 03:27
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I don't disagree, I just know the way my friends tend to think about such things and the IMO they're likely just judge it to be too powerful and disallow it (I'd likely do the same as a DM, tbh - shield or 'polearm,' not both).
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May 10, 2019 03:33
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I mean... it's generally just a trade off between Reach and +1 AC (unless you've got a good magic shield), but sure I guess.
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May 10, 2019 03:36
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Polearm and shield is both classic and badass and I use it in any videogame/tabletop game I can.
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May 10, 2019 03:37
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Spear and shield is a classic archetype and I see nothing wrong with the concept. It's probably just a stupid semantical thing where my friends and I conceive of polearms as the sorts of things that require 2 hands to wield - our background is heavily influenced by 2E ADnD - to us, polearms are longass things that have a big reach and require 2 hands - things like halberds, bec-de-corbins, poleaxes, pikes, etc.. As such, I just feel like the PAM feat, at my table, would require a character to be using 2 hands on the weapon for it to work. Edit: we tend to not tolerate cheese builds even if they work RAW. Coffeelocks, for instance, cannot recharge Warlock spell slots that have been converted to sorc points and as of yet remain unused on a short rest. From another perspective: Can a staff or spear be wielded one handed? Absolutely. Is it easier to attack with such a thing multiple times (an extra attack as a bonus action) by utilizing the other end when using both of hands? Yes, spin that thing around like you're Mat Cauthon. Marathanes fucked around with this message at 03:49 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 03:46
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The feat is called Polearm Master not Polearm Aficionado.
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May 10, 2019 03:57
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Here, let me help you all visualize a completely historically accurate representation of Polearm Master + Shield. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAtbzV8CTV0
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May 10, 2019 03:59
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Marathanes posted:Is it easier to attack with such a thing multiple times (an extra attack as a bonus action) by utilizing the other end when using both of hands? Yes, spin that thing around like you're Mat Cauthon. Yeah, but what's even faster? Using one hand in a motion for which the technical term is "stabbity stabbity"!
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May 10, 2019 04:06
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Yeah, but what's even faster? Using one hand in a motion for which the technical term is "stabbity stabbity"! Wait, isn't the PAM attack blunt? Implying that it's done with the shaft/butt rather than the pointy bits?
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May 10, 2019 04:09
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Marathanes posted:Wait, isn't the PAM attack blunt? Implying that it's done with the shaft/butt rather than the pointy bits? Yeah, but D&D writers have no idea how weapons work. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:17 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 04:14
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You can assume that or you can just assume that it represents using the weapon in a way that doesn't use its cutting or piercing head as "efficiently".
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May 10, 2019 04:17
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Yeah you slap them with the side of the spear tip. Boom there you go.
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May 10, 2019 04:20
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OutsideAngel posted:
It’s leadership. Squad based, horde summoning or commanding an army. That’s the idea behind the “mojo” abilities in the martial maneuvers homebrew I put out. clusterfuck fucked around with this message at 05:42 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 05:31
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*me, prepping for today’s game* ok they said they want to do the wizard of wines mission and maybe the bonegrinder. Got it *me, three hours into our campaign* so you enter the vistani camp instead and now you’re fighting 23 bandits and a wizard who polymorphs himself into a T. rex. Hint: they won when an armored saber tooth tiger came bounding in followed by van hellsing
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May 10, 2019 06:07
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Verisimilidude posted:*me, prepping for today’s game* ok they said they want to do the wizard of wines mission and maybe the bonegrinder. Got it Read "bongrider", now re-writing my next session.
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May 10, 2019 07:07
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Conspiratiorist posted:Both Swords and Valor are inherently bad at fighting because the Bard spell list quite simply doesn't support gishing; you can try the Swift Quiver gimmick with Valor at level 10, but that's as far as it goes. I'd offer, though, that medium armor and shield proficiency is really really good for a class that uses so many concentration spells. Also, it's minor but not nothing: Being able to pop off a couple longbow shots per turn is not the worst thing a bard can do when already holding concentration. (Provided you're in a position where you can safely put away the shield.) Vicious Mockery goes from being awesome in the early levels to pretty junk the moment most of your opponents have multi-attack and Cutting Words degrades in a similar fashion. I agree Lore is pretty much the best but I think we might reevaluate that if more campaigns went to 20.
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May 10, 2019 13:04
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If I knock a flying creature prone with a Trip Attack, it’s going to fall out of the sky and face-plant, right?
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May 10, 2019 13:06
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Conspiratiorist posted:The saddest thing about all of this Assassin talk is that even when you get past the fiddling to make the ability works, all it means is the Rogue in question dealt roughly an extra turn's worth of damage. How about a pally/rogue assassin? Two autocrits (three if you go dual wield for that round) with smite + the sneak attack dice are insane. Yes you'll get to use the ability once or twice in a campaign, but the dice roll will be legendary. (I'm wondering cause that's my character concept and I've reached the most important level 6 on pally so wondering if it's time to get to level 3 assassin or level 3 swash)
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May 10, 2019 13:21
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change my name posted:If I knock a flying creature prone with a Trip Attack, it’s going to fall out of the sky and face-plant, right? If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell.
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May 10, 2019 13:27
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Kaal posted:If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell. And whether it splats is a question of if it can resume moving before hitting the ground. 60 feet a turn is the standard fall, right?
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May 10, 2019 13:35
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Nehru the Damaja posted:And whether it splats is a question of if it can resume moving before hitting the ground. 60 feet a turn is the standard fall, right? I believe that's the damage-free Feather Fall speed. There's no numbers provided in PHB, but in Xanathar's Guide there's an optional rule of 500 ft/turn.
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May 10, 2019 13:50
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dex_sda posted:How about a pally/rogue assassin? Two autocrits (three if you go dual wield for that round) with smite + the sneak attack dice are insane. Yes you'll get to use the ability once or twice in a campaign, but the dice roll will be legendary. The problem with any kind of Paladin multiclass is, assuming theoretical level 20 is reached, the level 18 Paladin ability is incredibly good, simple as it may be. Getting a 30 foot radius on your aura basically allows for a lot more versatile movement for the party as a whole. But the idea of a sneak attack smite is pretty tasty, says the part of my brain that loves big damage numbers...
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May 10, 2019 13:53
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dex_sda posted:How about a pally/rogue assassin? Two autocrits (three if you go dual wield for that round) with smite + the sneak attack dice are insane. Yes you'll get to use the ability once or twice in a campaign, but the dice roll will be legendary. Wouldn't this suck on account of sneak attack dices not scaling very high up in numbers? (Not to mention the nightmare of trying to stat it)
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May 10, 2019 13:53
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The Mash posted:Wouldn't this suck on account of sneak attack dices not scaling very high up in numbers? (Not to mention the nightmare of trying to stat it) It wouldn't be THAT hard, DEX Paladin is a thing that works pretty decently.
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May 10, 2019 13:58
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Infinity Gaia posted:The problem with any kind of Paladin multiclass is, assuming theoretical level 20 is reached, the level 18 Paladin ability is incredibly good, simple as it may be. Getting a 30 foot radius on your aura basically allows for a lot more versatile movement for the party as a whole. I agree, but the campaign will end at level ~11 soooo... you miss out on level 3 spells which don't get me wrong are very good, but it's a tradeoff. The Mash posted:Wouldn't this suck on account of sneak attack dices not scaling very high up in numbers? (Not to mention the nightmare of trying to stat it) Infinity Gaia posted:It wouldn't be THAT hard, DEX Paladin is a thing that works pretty decently. Yep dex pally is the way. This is a MAD class but here were my rolls: 17/17/13/13/9/7 17 + racial in cha, 17 to dex, 13 in Con and Str (for multiclassing only), and finally dump the mentals. With one ASI I am at 20 Cha, 18 Dex, decent Con, and the rest are crap. (worth noting that while you'll have to get some lower Cha or Dex, this is achievable with point buy as long as you resign to your mentals being 8). So far 1 level of Rogue but aiming for 3, the rest is 6 levels of Paladin, since the AoP is probably the best ability in the game. Equipment: rapier, leather armor, board, and the defense fighting style. Nice 19 AC without needing to get full plate, which is expensive. Also, no disadvantage on stealth. You have high charisma, and you get the skill stuff from Rogue. This means you can take expertises in some social stuff for social encounters, and expertise in stealth (I actually didn't, because I didn't want the party rogue to feel like they aren't the best at sneaking and took Athletics because it kinda fits the char concept, but if I was going for pure absolute ridiculousness that's what I'd do). As far as RP goes, I took Oath of Vengeance, of course. I took tiefling of dispater to break the paladin mold. The backstory tldr is "Used to be an assassin. One day, Tyr gave him a chance. He took it, but being deceptive is still the thing he knows". Basically, Batman without the detective stuff. Also, a natural leader, but since he's a little thick his plans tend to need being fixed by others. It works great, and thieves' cant with the rogue adds another layer of awesome RP. I'm having a ton of fun straddling the line between being brutal and sneaky for 'the greater good' and yet doing good at a risk to myself. Finally, for the damage. The key is that you get Extra attack, and smites can be used multiple times a round (sneak attack doesn't, and this makes up for the lost d6 sneak attack dice). Assuming pally level 6/assassin level 3 with my stats, here's a round I can pull off in surprise: 2 attacks with the rapier. One will have sneak attack + smite, the other is just smite. +8 to attack, both with advantage - probably a good chance both hit. If they do, the damage is 8d8+4d6+4+8d8+4=16d8+4d6+8=28-176 (94 avg), with no saving throw (important against legendary creatures aka when going supernova is the most important), most of the damage being magical in nature with something that is rarely resisted against. If desired, a bonus round attack can be used instead of the board. You'd need to use two shortswords but that still comes down to 16d8+10d6+12=38-200 (119 avg) damage. It even increases by further 6d8 on undead or fiends! Of course, you use a ludicrous amount of resources and have to be lucky, but that's alright. Paladin is great as it is, it shouldn't steal the spotlight all the time. But when he does, he should do it in loving style. By comparison, the best a pure assassin at level 9 can do is 14d6+8=57 damage, which is worse than the pally with a shield. The pally can do as much damage without even surprising anyone - no wonder people think assassin is pretty trash on its own... dex_sda fucked around with this message at 14:37 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 14:21
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Yeah, at level 11 a Rogue dip is fine, but I'm still questioning going Assassin instead of Swashbuckler. Assassin gets a bigger burst in theory, but requires specific setup, while Swashbuckler actually improves your overall consistency by letting you Sneak Attack on your own and lets you do fun positioning tricks. It'd depend on how often you're getting surprise rounds and how long the average encounter is lasting, really.
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May 10, 2019 14:45
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Infinity Gaia posted:Yeah, at level 11 a Rogue dip is fine, but I'm still questioning going Assassin instead of Swashbuckler. Assassin gets a bigger burst in theory, but requires specific setup, while Swashbuckler actually improves your overall consistency by letting you Sneak Attack on your own and lets you do fun positioning tricks. It'd depend on how often you're getting surprise rounds and how long the average encounter is lasting, really. Yep, not to mention Swash initiative is from Charisma, which synergises incredibly well. If Assassin didn't fit the character concept so well I wouldn't have as much trouble deciding. In fairness, we do get surprise reasonably often. e; also, one thing to note is with my Channel Divinity, the swashbuckler ability is less useful. I can do sneak attacks by myself by granting myself advantage to all attacks against an opponent if I need to. Another very good option honestly is to keep pumping pally and get Inspiring Leader as the ASI (we're entering a dungeon crawl right now, it will be useful as hell) + level 3 spells, and treat the one level rogue dip as having given me lots of skills and the extra 1d6 that let me play a different kind of paladin. It's honestly a pretty cool character concept and it started because we needed a healer and I realised you could make a subversive and weird paladin in 5e. Still... my point is assassin on it's own is pretty trash. But as a dip, it can be something that makes an awesome trip report down the line. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 15:02 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 14:53
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Are you pretending that you obviously didn't mean "Dungeons & Dragons combat" when you said "fights" and "fighting" in the context of talking about Dungeons & Dragons? Well, by your confusion, it apparently wasn't [i]obvious[/] but yes, I was making a point that fighters have always been a simple class that focuses on hitting things in melee combat and really not much else, ever since the original editions of D&D. The newest player in our group really wanted to go assassin as her rogue class, just because it's a cool name. Then she looked at what she got from it and realized that it really doesn't do much at all. She played a couple sessions as one and then she then asked our DM for help and he suggested multiclassing into a rogue/bladelock instead, since they get so many more things they can do and her damage is much higher now than it was when she was an assassin, since the damage is much more consistent. So her "assassin" training ended up being a cover for her locating a dark portal so that she could contact the Hexblade and sell her soul for power.
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May 10, 2019 17:30
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Verisimilidude posted:*me, prepping for today’s game* ok they said they want to do the wizard of wines mission and maybe the bonegrinder. Got it Why did they attack them?
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May 10, 2019 18:17
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I'd offer, though, that medium armor and shield proficiency is really really good for a class that uses so many concentration spells. Swift Quiver uses concentration  Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies are indeed good, but if that's really all it offers, then you're better off with a Fighter or Hexblade dip, or even grabbing Moderately Armored since a feat for Cutting Words and Magical Secrets is a good trade. And regarding Cutting Words, unless you're fighting something like a Marilith or mass combat, if you're facing 4~5 beefy attacks per round total (ie a legendary actions dragon or boss plus small entourage) then turning a close hit out of them into a miss is a decent chunk of damage mitigation, plus it works on AoEs for a modest party-wide reduction. dex_sda posted:How about a pally/rogue assassin? Two autocrits (three if you go dual wield for that round) with smite + the sneak attack dice are insane. Yes you'll get to use the ability once or twice in a campaign, but the dice roll will be legendary. I've seen it; it's not particularly impressive. What level are we looking at, 11? 2d8+6d8+10d6+6 ~ 77 on crit once, then 8d6+6 ~ 36 for the other, then 2d8+5d6+12 ~ 38 round to round afterwards. Meanwhile a Vengeance Paladin is rolling 2d8+5 four sometimes five times per round (~56), and with all those rolls it's fairly high chances to get in crits for their two 3rd level spell slots throughout the encounter, plus the other smites they can apply at will. I see the case if you can get the drop on a relatively low HP but scary enemy, but even when the stars align the numbers just aren't really there.
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May 10, 2019 18:23
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So for a lore bard, would it potentially be worth it to burn a magical secret on picking up a more damaging cantrip, or is just spamming vicious mockery and grabbing that extra third level spell the better choice?
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May 10, 2019 18:33
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If you're really hurting for a damaging cantrip then either dip Warlock (Hexblade pref.) or take Magic Initiate. Extra 3rd level spells are too good to pass up.
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May 10, 2019 18:50
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Meridian posted:So for a lore bard, would it potentially be worth it to burn a magical secret on picking up a more damaging cantrip, or is just spamming vicious mockery and grabbing that extra third level spell the better choice? In my mind, the level 6 magical secret ability is for Counterspell and one other spell that fills a need for your party. If my party needs healing, then it's Healing Spirit. If my party needs someone who can provide some AoE damage, Fireball. Etc. Single target damage is one thing that almost no party is short of (our current one has a paladin and the aforementioned rogue/bladelock who do ridiculous single target damage and a moon druid who does pretty good single target damage) and that's really all a cantrip will provide. Also, as Conspiratiorist stated, there are other ways to pick up Eldritch Blast if you really want it, but picking up 3rd level spells is nearly impossible.
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May 10, 2019 19:03
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Tank discussion - it depends entirely on how your DM does or doesn't want to deal with conjure animals, but my druid has been rocking two giant octopuses for awhile and he's made for a fine traditional MMO tank. Restrain actually works unlike attacks of opportunity. Rules as written, it's 4 giant octopuses, though he also isn't technically allowed to choose the animals. (Summon spells are one of the worst designed things in the game, just awful, and if I did it all again I'd probably limit it to a single creature scaled to CR 2, but this has become his trademark and is cool now. I wasn't ever gonna use a version where I, the DM, was gonna choose whether or not to give him animals he wanted. If they had made a cool table it'd have been fine, but no way in hell am I gonna just pick.)
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May 10, 2019 19:13
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Any word on the new source book?
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