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Neddy Seagoon posted:And the Quest is a viable mass-appealing monopoly for the forseeable future, at a cheaper cost than a PCVR headset with a market that's growing fairly slowly and has to contend with competitors regularly iterating new models. There's zero reason to even look at PCVR if the Quest does even half as well as it potentially could. Especially when they have time to develop tech inhouse and hold it for the next Quest iteration at their own pace. People will buy PC vr as well.
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May 9, 2019 00:13
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I think the Rift S is a perfectly functional entry-level headset (and worth recommending for someone looking to get into PCVR for a reasonable price), but that's really all you can say about it. See, I think this vastly undersells it. Outside of the index, or dedicated simmers wanting the new 2k wmr sets, I think it's still bar none the best vr set you can buy. Hardly "functional entry level", it's the one to buy if you don't want to drop 1000 to get into vr.
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May 9, 2019 00:15
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I imagine a good guide to Oculus's commitment to pcvr would be if they continue funding games that will only run on the pc. At least for 2019 that is a yes.
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May 9, 2019 00:19
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A hardware youtube guy probably has easy dedicated spaces for VR so the convenience difference between sensors and inside out is not going to be significant for him. For more casual people that can be a pretty big deal unless your gaming PC happens to be near a good VR space that can keep up the sensors all the time and know they won't need adjusting (my cats still love to fiddle with my sensor cables). I was just thinking, since the inside out trackers only need 1 USB and 1 video cable can you drag it wherever the cables reach? Like run it through the walls to a whole different room or whatever? homeless snail posted:If you're within a standard deviation of average IPD it probably doesn't matter as much, but also others seem to be more sensitive to it than I am. My ipd is 68 but I prefer the Rift adjusted below that so I think I'm higher than standard but I adjust it down to more like standard. Not sure what that means for this whole thing.
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May 9, 2019 00:21
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Hamelekim posted:People will buy PC vr as well. But less will. My roommate likes Vr. Has access to my vive, rift, vive pros. She bought a quest. She’s sick of messing with a pc. Market isn’t nerds guys.
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May 9, 2019 00:22
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Tom Guycot posted:See, I think this vastly undersells it. Outside of the index, or dedicated simmers wanting the new 2k wmr sets, I think it's still bar none the best vr set you can buy. Hardly "functional entry level", it's the one to buy if you don't want to drop 1000 to get into vr. That's what I was thinking and am now worried that a reviewer I trust seems to be saying he prefers the original Rift.
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May 9, 2019 00:23
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EbolaIvory posted:But less will. More importantly a LOT less will. You can be vocal dogged fans of Oculus, but that loyalty is not a two-way street. Especially when there's a far bigger prize to be had selling VR to literally everyone. PCVR is vestigial at BEST in that situation for Oculus, and can be frankly culled from their lineup without caring. mashed_penguin posted:I imagine a good guide to Oculus's commitment to pcvr would be if they continue funding games that will only run on the pc. At least for 2019 that is a yes. Anything out this year has been in development for several already. Even if you get announcements for stuff late 2019/early 2020, you're still looking at titles commissioned in probably 2017-ish so your real benchmark starts next year. And anything for Quest AND Rift S is almost certainly Quest-first and "PC-enhanced". Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 00:38 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 00:35
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Bremen posted:That's what I was thinking and am now worried that a reviewer I trust seems to be saying he prefers the original Rift. I dunno, the impression I got from him in that review was more the audio disappointed him and as an enthusiast who already has a full roomscale set up, he didn't really think he'd upgrade, which is kind of where I am. Some official clip on audio drivers and I'd jump in, but right now I don't care enough to pay money and deal with earbuds. All that said if my rift burned up in a fire I would get the s without hesitation, even if I could still buy an original. As contradictory as that seems.
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May 9, 2019 00:44
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The other thing with the Rift S is it's only really good because the competition is hamstrung by Microsoft's SDK. Given that they're doing nothing to iterate on it and Valve have basically released a reference headset, I'd be very curious to see if Samsung or HP don't just make their own inside-out SteamVR headsets and controllers from the ground up next because any new WMR headset is permanently hosed by the Rift S having far better tracking and controllers for the price point.
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May 9, 2019 00:52
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EbolaIvory posted:But less will. I hate external sensors, so I understand. That's why I'm buying a rift-s and going to sell my rift. I am probably never going to buy an index, if it ever is sold in Canada, or any external sensor setup ever again.
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May 9, 2019 01:05
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I have a Vive in a moving box somewhere and I frankly cannot be arsed to do the drywall mounting song and dance again. It'll probably rot there if I don't sell it  That said this Quest thing is intriguing. I haven't really kept up with the thread or VR in the last few months; how is this Quest doing positional and orientation tracking without external sensors (or giant IR bricks like the Vive, whichever)? In other words, what else would I have to buy in theory to make it good? (e) I guess the Rift-S is the same thing sensors-wise but PC orientated (and weaker display plus tethers)? Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 01:58 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 01:56
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Ciaphas posted:I haven't really kept up with the thread or VR in the last few months; how is this Quest doing positional and orientation tracking without external sensors (or giant IR bricks like the Vive, whichever)? Sophisticated computer vision algorithms
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May 9, 2019 02:01
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Tom Guycot posted:I dunno, the impression I got from him in that review was more the audio disappointed him and as an enthusiast who already has a full roomscale set up, he didn't really think he'd upgrade, which is kind of where I am. Some official clip on audio drivers and I'd jump in, but right now I don't care enough to pay money and deal with earbuds. This is basically how I've been feeling about the S. I really can't believe that after nailing the audio experience on the Rift they went for lovely sound pipes on both of their new headsets. It's the biggest gently caress you of the S. Someone told me about some PSVR headphones that mimic the Rift's, and now I'm really hoping that the S headband is close enough to the PSVR's for these to work. https://www.amazon.com/Bionik-BNK-9007-Mantis-Headphone-Playstation/dp/B0735X5M4X?th=1&psc=1
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May 9, 2019 02:33
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And apparently you can't even fit headphones over the headset strap.
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May 9, 2019 02:36
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Tip posted:Someone told me about some PSVR headphones that mimic the Rift's, and now I'm really hoping that the S headband is close enough to the PSVR's for these to work. https://www.amazon.com/Bionik-BNK-9007-Mantis-Headphone-Playstation/dp/B0735X5M4X?th=1&psc=1 Given that it literally started life as the PSVR headband, I'd say your odds are quite probably decent. Also I'm so getting a pair of those for my PSVR headset  .
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May 9, 2019 02:38
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Neddy Seagoon posted:
Which is why I said continue.
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May 9, 2019 03:13
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The other thing with the Rift S is it's only really good because the competition is hamstrung by Microsoft's SDK. Given that they're doing nothing to iterate on it and Valve have basically released a reference headset, I'd be very curious to see if Samsung or HP don't just make their own inside-out SteamVR headsets and controllers from the ground up next because any new WMR headset is permanently hosed by the Rift S having far better tracking and controllers for the price point. I don't think I could see a lot of those companies jumping into steamVR. A big part of the benefit to all those OEM's is doing 0 work on controllers or any tracking placement or algorithms of any kind, combined with WMR being built into windows, working on laptops and stuff with nothing else required for tracking. To go to a hard core gamer setup where they'll need base stations lugged around for business or other operations using them would be too much of a step back for what they signed up for. Even then they'd run into a situation where their headsets would either end up as expensive as the index anyways (reverb is 600, take away the bundled WMR controllers and its still probably 500. Add the knuckles, base stations and its there anyways), or of a low quality with their own cheap controllers which they'd then have to design as well. If they go that way and make something low quality enough to be able to sell for the price of the OG vive, or even cheaper, its still going to be at a point then where it will be worse than the rift-s anyways. They're basically just in a place where no direction makes sense other than waiting on microsoft. I think thats really the biggest hurdle to anyone jumping into the steamVR ecosystem, PCvr is still terribly small, and probably not worth the effort to put so much money behind, and charge high prices. Theres just nothing the companies making WMR headsets would really gain, plus they would give up not needing base stations, nor getting away with doing minimal design work. Tip posted:This is basically how I've been feeling about the S. I really can't believe that after nailing the audio experience on the Rift they went for lovely sound pipes on both of their new headsets. It's the biggest gently caress you of the S. Huh, thats really interesting. I'd love to see someone try that, or even just modify somehow to fit. But yeah, seeing those existing, really makes me hope oculus goes "oops" and releases basically that same product for the S. They've generally been pretty responsive to feedback when they get swamped with it, like when quest was originally going to have a touchpad, so hopefully someone will be listening on that
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May 9, 2019 03:36
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There Rift S at this point seems like a marginally profitable way to serve the mid-range PC market. It's clear they've ceeded the pro/prosumer market to HTC/Valve in favor of owning the consumer market Either the Quest is going to take off like a rocket or it's going to fail miserably The Quest is running a 2017 snapdragon 835 I would imagine Oculus releases the Quest 2 in 2021 with the 2019-edition snapdragon 855, alongside the equally phoned-in Rift 2 There's no way Oculus can compete with wired Chinese PiMax and others on the low end, and there's enough competition at the high end they're best served by continuing to build their Apple style VR walled garden and pray to eventually weave it into Facebook as a first class socal media device Quest looks well positioned to be the market leader for all in one VR for the next 2 years, nobody else is even trying to compete with them right now, sounds like it's a valid product too. No idea what will happen with the Gen 2 all in ones, the technology ought to be very mature at that point, probably will see some sort of steam compatible, tether-able but also fully self contained device by then for $299 and higher resolution. We shall see...
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May 9, 2019 03:44
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The Quest will probably be reasonably successful, until they get squeezed out on the other end when Apple releases their thing.
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May 9, 2019 03:46
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homeless snail posted:The Quest will probably be reasonably successful, until they get squeezed out on the other end when Apple releases their thing. I'm feelin' Apple TV 2 personally
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May 9, 2019 03:48
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Neddy Seagoon posted:More importantly a LOT less will. You can be vocal dogged fans of Oculus, but that loyalty is not a two-way street. Especially when there's a far bigger prize to be had selling VR to literally everyone. PCVR is vestigial at BEST in that situation for Oculus, and can be frankly culled from their lineup without caring. Also, reminder: Oculus still supports GearVR, so it’s likely the Rift will also enjoy long support. If standalone VR eclipses PCVR then I think Carmack’s “I hope so” for Quest tethering should become a “yes” at that point.
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May 9, 2019 03:50
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homeless snail posted:The Quest will probably be reasonably successful, until they get squeezed out on the other end when Apple releases their thing. Apple wants a pair of glasses with perfect AR built into them (to be fair... everyone in the space does). I just don't see Apple jumping into the VR arena though until its much larger, with some real serious use cases. At the moment its a toy, mostly for games and some enterprise use, an area that Apple has really never cared to even dabble in. Games have been a huge and established industry and outside of a silly forgotten side project in the mid 90's something they've completely ignored. Until theres a point where every silicon valley tech writer is using VR daily, carrying it with them, I think they'll just sit around researching AR tech privately.
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May 9, 2019 04:25
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Tom Guycot posted:I don't think I could see a lot of those companies jumping into steamVR. A big part of the benefit to all those OEM's is doing 0 work on controllers or any tracking placement or algorithms of any kind, combined with WMR being built into windows, working on laptops and stuff with nothing else required for tracking. To go to a hard core gamer setup where they'll need base stations lugged around for business or other operations using them would be too much of a step back for what they signed up for. Even then they'd run into a situation where their headsets would either end up as expensive as the index anyways (reverb is 600, take away the bundled WMR controllers and its still probably 500. Add the knuckles, base stations and its there anyways), or of a low quality with their own cheap controllers which they'd then have to design as well. If they go that way and make something low quality enough to be able to sell for the price of the OG vive, or even cheaper, its still going to be at a point then where it will be worse than the rift-s anyways. They're basically just in a place where no direction makes sense other than waiting on microsoft. I agree on all that and it's why I said "SteamVR" and not "Lighthouse" headset. It's a flat extra $20USD+ per device just for the sensors for starters, though it would be a good sneaky upgrade path for an entry-level HMD. I frankly could see Samsung, or even HP, potentially just taking what they've learned so far, plus the Index and maybe the Rift S, and making a go of their own Steam-compatible inside-out headset. If only because it'd be a much better long-term option than hoping Microsoft do something, or Oculus and the Rift S suddenly vanish overnight, and they clearly want to actually do things in the VR hardware marketplace. There's not even much to R&D on for controllers, even the Cosmos got the message that Oculus set the standard. Rip them off, maybe stick a trackpad on there to look cool beside the Big Boy Knuckle controllers, and call it a day. Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:fewer* GearVR is an inoffensive device that just has no competition, but even with that you now just have to buy an adapter for new phones instead of iterating a new model. The Rift is an active threat to Rift S sales, because you cant push it as THE hot headset to own when the Rift S fixes the complaints people have with the Rift S. They also have to build the drat things, while Lenovo do all that for them with the Rift S. It's gonna go out behind the woodshed sooner or later.
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May 9, 2019 04:29
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homeless snail posted:It seems to vary from person to person, but I'm 72mm so I have to max out pretty much every HMD where its adjustable, and if I turn it all the way down I lose stereo and my eyes start to hurt after awhile. If you're within a standard deviation of average IPD it probably doesn't matter as much, but also others seem to be more sensitive to it than I am. yeah, i start getting headaches if I have it off by more than 2mm or so.
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May 9, 2019 04:46
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Ciaphas posted:I have a Vive in a moving box somewhere and I frankly cannot be arsed to do the drywall mounting song and dance again. It'll probably rot there if I don't sell it Better tracking due to PC power, and the screen image is better because of PC power as well with Rift-s vs quest.
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May 9, 2019 04:50
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I agree on all that and it's why I said "SteamVR" and not "Lighthouse" headset. It's a flat extra $20USD+ per device just for the sensors for starters, though it would be a good sneaky upgrade path for an entry-level HMD. But then they're right back having to design their own CV tracking system, and their own controllers, when as it is they get all that provided by microsoft. What do they gain by making a non lighthouse steamVR headset anyways? WMR headsets already work with steam. If its lighthouse its right back to the problem of needing to now sell people on installing external devices around their room, when their previous headsets required nothing. The lighthouses alone probably raise the cost by 200, then they have to either design their own controllers, make some deal to package knuckles with it (raising it another 300), or just selling headsets alone. On top of all that they still have to have it all come in significantly less than the cost of the Index. Otherwise why wouldn't people just buy that? The cheapest WMR sets, are about 300 usd (they're on sale a lot of course but, its a good average for where they are), conservatively add 200 for the lighthouses (currently 150 each), go really conservative and say they pump out controllers of their own for 100. So 600 usd for a lighthouse version of the old WMR sets that would still be worse than a Rift-S. The price just keeps going up with the better WMR sets as well, and again they're back to requiring stations to be mounted around with a more taxing setup. If they don't use lighthouse, they can't keep using microsoft's inside-out system which means they have to develop their own CV tracking software from scratch. Maybe they could use some of googles work with daydream, I'm not sure if that has requirements to be tied to android though. Qualcom is also working on their own sort of standard for that, but again thats theirs to go hand in hand with an ARM chip, which fine if they're making a standalone. For a PC system though, they're going to have to build it from scratch, do all that R&D work. I just don't see any route where it makes any sense for them to jump in, especially at this point. Their headsets already work with steam, they don't have to do any tracking work, they don't have to make their own controllers, and they have brain dead easy set up. Who would they be competing for in the razor thin margin area of a dedicated steamVR headset? Its not enough to be better than the vive (which is worse, and still 100 more expensive than the rift-s), it has to be better than the rift-s by a significant enough amount to offset the price difference there will likely be, but not too good so as to push the price close enough to the Index which people would probably buy instead. Its just a drat razor thin route I can't see any of them embarking on while PCVR is still so small.
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May 9, 2019 06:12
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Tom Guycot posted:But then they're right back having to design their own CV tracking system, and their own controllers, when as it is they get all that provided by microsoft. What do they gain by making a non lighthouse steamVR headset anyways? WMR headsets already work with steam. The fundamental thing you keep ignoring is that there is no way forward with WMR as it is. Microsoft are laser-focused on Hololens and bilking money out of the US army with AR technology, and haven't done anything to iterate on WMR technology since the first reference headset and SDK. Anything coming out now using it is inescapably inferior to the Rift S because of that, and no improved display panel or Rift-style strap is going to change that. And they know this, because they cut their prices obscenely on everything including the newest WMR headsets right before the Rift S dropped to get some sales out before that shat on their entire market. The only way forward that isn't just throwing money away is a Lighthouse-compatible headset, their own inside-out solution (if not both), or to cut out of the market. WMR is functionally done so long as it can't compete for tracking and controllers anymore.
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May 9, 2019 06:47
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I laughed it off when the overseas call rep for Microsoft said they won't be carrying HP Reverb because it competes with Hololens 2. But when I swung by the Microsoft store yesterday, all 6 of their varies VR/WMR demo units were gone, and there was a single Hololens (maybe a non-functional 2?) propped up in an acrylic box as a display. So maybe they really are doing some stupid pivot.
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May 9, 2019 16:43
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Ciaphas posted:I have a Vive in a moving box somewhere and I frankly cannot be arsed to do the drywall mounting song and dance again. It'll probably rot there if I don't sell it A pair of portable light stands can fix that so you don't have to mount anything permanent ever again. The Vive isn't that much of a hassle to move around once you get the portability dialed in. Still not as portable as a Rift with it's cameras and a built in stand, but technically less of a pain in the rear end since you only need power for the lighthouses vs running cameras all over the place (for CV1 at least). The inside out tracking definitely fixes a lot of portability issues with PC VR as long as they can keep the blindspots to a minimum. But no matter how good Portable VR is, PC VR will continue to have a niche due to the sheer horsepower that a PC can offer VR. Mobile is great for the fine tuned VR experiences, but photorealistic sims, and bigger things like say Skyrim/Fallout/etc VR that are really hard to get good on mobile hardware will continue to be PC/Console exclusive. The question will mainly be, when will they ditch the cable and have a hybrid setup. Just releasing wireless headsets that connect to your PC but are as simple and easy to use as a Oculus Quest? We already know Wireless VR works so it shouldn't be that hard to make the norm in the long run. Hell part of the push for 5G tech from Sprint of all things is Untethered VR over 5G. The PC will always have a part in pushing VR, however the cable connecting it's days are numbered.
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May 10, 2019 00:46
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New look at that Blade Runner-esque game LOW FI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2s0MtV8K38 Edit: Broke my heart when he didn't recognize the Power Glove. jubjub64 fucked around with this message at 01:21 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 00:53
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jubjub64 posted:New look at that Blade Runner-esque game LOW FI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2s0MtV8K38 Wow, that really looks incredible. Definitely going to follow the development of this one. Hopefully it becomes more than a gorgeous tech demo.
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May 10, 2019 05:05
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EdEddnEddy posted:A pair of portable light stands can fix that so you don't have to mount anything permanent ever again. The Vive isn't that much of a hassle to move around once you get the portability dialed in. Thanks for the light stand suggestion, I'll look around for a pair in town today. That being said, would you consider the Rift-S, when it comes out, to be in any way an upgrade over a Vive with deluxe audio strap? (Quite frankly I'm tempted mostly by how much I dislike the Vive controllers.) Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 16:19 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 16:14
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The rift s has bad audio, so that will be a downgrade.
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May 10, 2019 16:19
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Rift S will have a better resolution, lenses, and controllers though, even if the audio is a downgrade from the deluxe audio strap.
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May 10, 2019 16:24
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you also don't need to set up dumb web cams across your room with the rift s thanks to the inside out tracking
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May 10, 2019 16:25
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This is super cool. Virtual 90's bedroom!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5kuUSPVSCk
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May 10, 2019 16:48
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cpGbZb4Zag Tested Vader immortal chapter 1 review. First few mins are spoiler free rest is full spoilerzone.
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May 10, 2019 16:55
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Ciaphas posted:Thanks for the light stand suggestion, I'll look around for a pair in town today. Just buy Knuckles.
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May 10, 2019 17:26
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Where does the Lenovo Explorer fit in all this as far as quality goes? This is my first attempt at VR and I'm pretty happy with it, so I imagine basically any other device would feel like an upgrade?
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May 10, 2019 17:28
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Where does the Lenovo Explorer fit in all this as far as quality goes? This is my first attempt at VR and I'm pretty happy with it, so I imagine basically any other device would feel like an upgrade?
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May 10, 2019 17:39
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