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Kindest Forums User posted:Well, for one, Maduro did just stop a counterrevolutionary coup that was lead by an American-backed pro-interventionist. Maduro sucks, but me personally, I'm happy he prevented the Venezuelan people from experiencing the same horrifying suffering the Iraqi or Libyan people went through. That's a lot of words to say 'no, I don't know poo poo about the country or its recent history'. Do you want to rectify that? Because the best way is to read more, ask our local venegoons some questions, and not go into multi-paragraph rants about your deep and sincere love for kleptocrat propaganda from a government that tortures journalists.
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May 12, 2019 17:58
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it's right there
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May 12, 2019 17:58
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Are you okay buddy? You seem to be having a moment Fair and balanced Nazi propaganda
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May 12, 2019 17:58
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Kawasaki Nun posted:I've seen quite a few articles on the insidious nature of the alt right. Dozens in 2015, and even more in the years that followed. wow they managed to publish some articles critical of the alt-right, great job then they gave regula rop eds to bret stephens and bari weiss the truth is in the middle I guess
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May 12, 2019 17:59
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VitalSigns posted:You can literally defend state media the exact same way. State media isn't beholden to the tastes of consumers though, that's entirely the point.
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May 12, 2019 17:59
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Kawasaki Nun posted:State media isn't beholden to the tastes of consumers though, that's entirely the point. Neither's private media. People get interested in what they're shown, not shown what they're interested in. You simply need a number of different companies offering slightly different flavours of the same thing and you have 'consumer choice'. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2019 18:00
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Kawasaki Nun posted:State media isn't beholden to the tastes of consumers though, that's entirely the point. which makes it better writing what the people want to hear is directly opposed to the public interest
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May 12, 2019 18:00
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Right I'm not trying to say the msm works well or serves it purpose or anything else. I'm simply trying to illustrate how there on constraints in a competitive media system that are absent for state run media. Market forces don't result in better media, it makes it demonstrably worse God drat lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2019 18:01
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Kawasaki Nun posted:State media isn't beholden to the tastes of consumers though, that's entirely the point. Does the majority of NYT consumers have a taste for puff pieces on Nazis.
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May 12, 2019 18:01
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VitalSigns posted:Does the majority of NYT consumers have a taste for puff pieces on Nazis. ....kind of?
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May 12, 2019 18:01
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Darth Walrus posted:That's a lot of words to say 'no, I don't know poo poo about the country or its recent history'. Do you want to rectify that? Because the best way is to read more, ask our local venegoons some questions, and not go into multi-paragraph rants about your deep and sincere love for kleptocrat propaganda from a government that tortures journalists. read more (of what I tell you to read) ask locals (but only the ones I tell you to ask)
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May 12, 2019 18:02
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VitalSigns posted:Does the majority of NYT consumers have a taste for puff pieces on Nazis. Yeah I bet they do because it's a rag. How trustworthy would any of you find a potential state operated paper in the USA? Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 18:07 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 12, 2019 18:02
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Right I'm not trying to say the msm works well or serves it purpose or anything else. I'm simply trying to illustrate how there on constraints in a competitive media system that are absent for state run media. All else being equal I would absolutely put a lot more trust in a story from the New York Times on domestic American politics compared to a TelesSUR article on domestic Venezuelan politics. There are many reasons to expect that the New York Times will have better reporting and a much stronger incentive to describe things accurately. I don't think many people here would seriously argue that the New York Times, even with its biases, is not a better source for learning about domestic issues. On the other hand the New York Times reporting on foreign countries with governments that the American government doesn't like is much less reliable. Especially since modern propaganda relies more on emphasis than outright deception. The media environment is so saturated with superfluous and competing claims on your attention that an effective propaganda campaign merely needs to ensure that a specific kind of story gets repeated constantly, whereas contradictory stories are covered with intensely and allowed to quickly fade into obscurity. Indeed, the fact that a few critical stories do get published has the predictable effect of enhancing the average news readers confidence in the publication, which is arguably a much savvier and more advanced form of propaganda than the comparatively crude kinds of lies we typically associate with state propaganda. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2019 18:04
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A big flaming stink posted:....kind of? I'm interested to see if he makes that argument though since it would destroy his stance that the paper is objective and reliable Kawasaki Nun posted:Yeah I bet they do because it's a rag Haha ok then glad you agree
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May 12, 2019 18:04
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Helsing posted:On the other hand the New York Times reporting on foreign countries with governments that the American government doesn't like is much less reliable. On the contrary, it's reliably bad whenever a country's interests are opposed to the interests of the US government.
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May 12, 2019 18:06
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Darth Walrus posted:That's a lot of words to say 'no, I don't know poo poo about the country or its recent history'. Do you want to rectify that? Because the best way is to read more, ask our local venegoons some questions, and not go into multi-paragraph rants about your deep and sincere love for kleptocrat propaganda from a government that tortures journalists. you are so loving stupid. I never expressed any sincere support for Maduro or teleSUR. I'm trying to make the point that maybe we should provide a little more nuance than "the entire state apparatus and it's institutions are now corrupt and most be surgically removed and replaced with...…", "the only reason Maduro receives any popular support is because he tortures journalists to say what he wants, or kills then one who say what he doesn't", "the military only support Maduro because he steals empanadas from the poor and fills their belly full".
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May 12, 2019 18:10
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dirty lousy tramp posted:read more (of what I tell you to read) It takes a special kind of person to take such personal affront to the idea of diversifying their perspective on a country they know so little about.
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May 12, 2019 18:17
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Kindest Forums User posted:you are so loving stupid. I never expressed any sincere support for Maduro or teleSUR. I'm trying to make the point that maybe we should provide a little more nuance than "the entire state apparatus and it's institutions are now corrupt and most be surgically removed and replaced with...…", "the only reason Maduro receives any popular support is because he tortures journalists to say what he wants, or kills then one who say what he doesn't", "the military only support Maduro because he steals empanadas from the poor and fills their belly full". And do you have information that might encourage such nuance? Tell you what - since you brought them up, describe the composition and activities of the colectivos armados. Cite multiple sources - your choice.
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May 12, 2019 18:20
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There is a not small contingent of posters itt that believe anyone who presents opinions or observations contrary to their worldview are either under the control of malicious forces or are unwitting collaborators. And they demand to be taken seriously
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May 12, 2019 18:22
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Darth Walrus posted:It takes a special kind of person to take such personal affront to the idea of diversifying their perspective on a country they know so little about. it takes a completely ordinary kind of person to play semantic games like this
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May 12, 2019 18:25
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Kawasaki Nun posted:There is a not small contingent of posters itt that believe anyone who presents opinions or observations contrary to their worldview are either under the control of malicious forces or are unwitting collaborators. 
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May 12, 2019 18:27
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Kawasaki Nun posted:There is a not small contingent of posters itt that believe anyone who presents opinions or observations contrary to their worldview are either under the control of malicious forces or are unwitting collaborators. You are the epitome of your post. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2019 18:40
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:This is literally the dumbest loving criticism, you've lifted wholesale from someone else. No poo poo they should have diversified. Guess they should have clicked their fingers and just diversified. If only the PSUV was in some type of position of power and had some grasp of the economy then they could have made inroads to doing so. 
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May 12, 2019 18:43
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Flayer posted:Are you posting this without irony because that is hilarious. I sort of assumed it was meant to be funny because it could easily apply to a subset of either 'side'.
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May 12, 2019 18:50
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punk rebel ecks posted:If only the PSUV was in some type of position of power and had some grasp of the economy then they could have made inroads to doing so. Someone just laid out the massive hurdles to doing this within the last few pages. It's not a choice made in a vacuum. It's a choice made in the context of a completely global economy where a number of countries are already many steps ahead of you in any industry you'd try to break in to such that you would struggle to support it even domestically in the modern era of global free trade
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May 12, 2019 18:58
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Majorian posted:There also shouldn't be anyone here who outright supports a right-wing coup backed by Trump, Bolton, and Abrams, but they do exist, unfortunately. I don't think there's a single person who has said that, ever. Even M Discordia. The closest it ever got was some frustrated Venezuelan goon who posted "gently caress, I doubt a right-wing coupist would even be worse than Maduro." I doubt that person (I forget who, maybe fnox?) would even agree with that statement if it was quoted, but rather it was said out of frustration. That's why the whole "pro / anti coup" stuff is so frustrating, literally no one supports a military coup, and only a couple posters actually support Maduro. I doubt many posters even support Guaido anymore. I think he's a huge sack of poo poo now, at least, while I was on his side at the beginning. I became progressively more against him as time went on, and the actual (and fortunately, pathetic) coup attempt in April was the last straw for me. Now I don't even know what I hope happens that's in the realm of possibility. I guess that Maduro, Diosdado, and el-Aissami are packed up on a plane and sent to a gulag in Russia?
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May 12, 2019 19:00
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So basically VZ deserved to fall on its own sword without any outside interference?
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May 12, 2019 19:00
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Saladman posted:I don't think there's a single person who has said that, ever. Even M Discordia. The closest it ever got was some frustrated Venezuelan goon who posted "gently caress, I doubt a right-wing coupist would even be worse than Maduro." I doubt that person (I forget who, maybe fnox?) would even agree with that statement if it was quoted, but rather it was said out of frustration. There have been multiple people ITT who said "anything would be better than Maduro," and that they would gladly accept military help from the U.S. e: I mean criminy, dude - Hugoon Chavez posted:I love how he goes "the US doesn't care about Venezuelans!" While not caring about Venezuelans himself. "I don't want an invasion, but we're gonna need an invasion" is pretty  We also had a poster in here calling opposition to Guaido's failed coup "whitesplaining" and insisting that this thread is a "safe space."
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May 12, 2019 19:11
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Shaocaholica posted:So basically VZ deserved to fall on its own sword without any outside interference? Well, the other option seems to be that the US military gives them a much bigger sword to fall on.
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May 12, 2019 19:15
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Majorian posted:There have been multiple people ITT who said "anything would be better than Maduro," and that they would gladly accept military help from the U.S. Eh again, that sort of sentiment is misguided but understandable. If the status quo is bad enough, it's easy to hope that any sudden change might lead to an improvement, even if that sudden change is far more likely to lead to a worse situation overall. like don't mistake me this person is wrong as hell but it's a very human thing to believe that dramatic action is the solution to one's problems.
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May 12, 2019 20:00
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A big flaming stink posted:Eh again, that sort of sentiment is misguided but understandable. If the status quo is bad enough, it's easy to hope that any sudden change might lead to an improvement, even if that sudden change is far more likely to lead to a worse situation overall. I would argue that it was actually correct back when Maduro was still refusing food aid. Now, not so much.
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May 12, 2019 20:29
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Majorian posted:There have been multiple people ITT who said "anything would be better than Maduro," and that they would gladly accept military help from the U.S. Yeah someone talking about how starvation trumps politics is very unsympathetic and totally counter-revolutionary. What a maroon!
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May 12, 2019 20:58
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Yeah someone talking about how starvation trumps politics is very unsympathetic and totally counter-revolutionary. yeah kinda since the US is the one inflicting starvation on the people of venezuela
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May 12, 2019 21:00
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Condiv posted:yeah kinda since the US is the one inflicting starvation on the people of venezuela They were at 40% food insecurity - Yemen-tier - and rising fast in 2014, before even Obama's microtargeted sanctions. It's genuinely unclear how much US sanctions had - or have - to do with Venezuelan starvation.
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May 12, 2019 21:08
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Condiv posted:yeah kinda since the US is the one inflicting starvation on the people of venezuela You sure Maduro isn't just eating all the empanadas himself?
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May 12, 2019 21:10
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Darth Walrus posted:They were at 40% food insecurity - Yemen-tier - and rising fast in 2014, before even Obama's microtargeted sanctions. It's genuinely unclear how much US sanctions had - or have - to do with Venezuelan starvation. Something tells me they're not helping
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May 12, 2019 21:16
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Yeah someone talking about how starvation trumps politics is very unsympathetic and totally counter-revolutionary. I know there's kinda a 'actually the coup is good and cool and sexy' script you guys all feel compelled to go through but you're just butchering it now. "No one has said a us military led right wing coup would be GOOD they're just anti government in general for other reasons" "Here's a post saying that" "AH HEH HEH YEA I GUESS YOU LOVE PEOPLE STARVING"
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May 12, 2019 21:19
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Majorian posted:
i don't really read that as pro-invasion as such, especially given the temporal context of Keeshhound posted:I would argue that it was actually correct back when Maduro was still refusing food aid. Now, not so much. that post was in January, the attempted US/Brazil convoys were in February, and the Venezuelan government hadn't really shifted yet to "well yeah, now there's a crisis because economic war and increased sanctions have overwhelmed the noble and visionary Chavista government" and starting to actually coordinate some for UN, Red Cross, et al assistance I'm not even sure Guaido had slid into "all options on the table" yet at that point, which was another development that colored responses to him specifically. edit lol that post was from literally the day after Guaido's announcement in the first place, I thought January-Twenty-Something sounded familiar Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 21:39 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 12, 2019 21:37
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GreyjoyBastard posted:that post was in January, the attempted US/Brazil convoys were in February, and the Venezuelan government hadn't really shifted yet to "well yeah, now there's a crisis because economic war and increased sanctions have overwhelmed the noble and visionary Chavista government" and starting to actually coordinate some for UN, Red Cross, et al assistance I was meaning the general sentiment of "even an invasion would be better than this" rather than a specific comment.
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May 12, 2019 21:40
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Darth Walrus posted:They were at 40% food insecurity - Yemen-tier - and rising fast in 2014, before even Obama's microtargeted sanctions. It's genuinely unclear how much US sanctions had - or have - to do with Venezuelan starvation. nah we've had studies showing the deleterious effect the sanctions had https://twitter.com/ceprdc/status/1121417348806774790 quote:This paper looks at some of the most important impacts of the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the US government since August of 2017. It finds that most of the impact of these sanctions has not been on the government but on the civilian population. Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:18 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 12, 2019 22:13
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