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Alhazred posted:They're just willing to work together with them. they had a civil war on the issue, which would indicate that it's something they stomach for pther reasons rather than actually support don't get me wrong they're a shite bunch, but krf is not a party of white supremacy in that nobody who is guided by that ideology would vote for krf
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May 10, 2019 17:39
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I don't know the origins of the "pro-life" movement in Norway, but it not being associated with white supremacy there doesn't mean that's not part of its origins - if (like TERFs in the UK) they're basically sock-puppets for American right wingers who are.
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May 10, 2019 17:45
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't know the origins of the "pro-life" movement in Norway, but it not being associated with white supremacy there doesn't mean that's not part of its origins - if (like TERFs in the UK) they're basically sock-puppets for American right wingers who are. anti-abortionism in norway is ideologically based in our home-grown lay protestants, which are much more puritan and somewhat grimmer than the american evangelicals. they've hated abortion since before they spoke english, but also fund some of the most effective integration efforts in the country, becoming effective anti-racists Frp, our most american party, are basically neutral on abortion. i absolutely detest the habit of simply importing historical-political analyses from america, because they almost never map well we imagine, because we're saturated in american pop culture and market ideology, that we're sort of the same, but we really are quite far from the americans as pertains to e.g. racial issues - simply importing an analysis of american racism and applying it to e.g denmark will leave you with a really bad understanding of what's going on
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May 10, 2019 17:52
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V. Illych L. posted:anti-abortionism in norway is ideologically based in our home-grown lay protestants, which are much more puritan and somewhat grimmer than the american evangelicals. they've hated abortion since before they spoke english, but also fund some of the most effective integration efforts in the country, becoming effective anti-racists it's incredibly annoying and very pervasive too. people need to stop reading about trump all day or they'll get permanently brain damaged then again since everyone does this i guess if it goes on we'll just erase history and functionally have the same politics as in the us, and in that case, saints preserve us all
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May 10, 2019 17:54
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scandinavian lay christians hate licence and ostentatiousness, for instance, whereas no american ever does anything tastefully or in a subsued manner we're importing some stuff - e.g the Visjon Norge crowd - but while they're important enough that they're listened to, they are by no means the mainstream of political christianity in norway, much less conservativism in general
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May 10, 2019 17:56
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I honestly don't expect KRF in its current form to last much longer if leadership keeps aligning themselves with FRP(and to a lesser degree, Høyre). They're a shrinking party and their core demographic really don't like what FRP represents, nor what KRF aligning with them represents.
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May 10, 2019 18:01
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Cynic Jester posted:I honestly don't expect KRF in its current form to last much longer if leadership keeps aligning themselves with FRP(and to a lesser degree, Høyre). They're a shrinking party and their core demographic really don't like what FRP represents, nor what KRF aligning with them represents. yeah krf is a dead party walking, they have nowhere to find new voters with their current direction and their old ones are starting to die off even the ones that sincerely see labour as the manifestation of Sin in norway don't much approve of the liberal right's blase attitude to alcohol and cigarettes and prostitution - working with frp isn't appealing to anyone in the party except for the proper israel nutters, but labour is for some obscure reason seen as even worse
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May 10, 2019 18:11
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(abortion. the reason is abortion)
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May 10, 2019 18:12
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I don't like being too reductive but maybe the reason conservatives causes intersect is mostly because they are conservative?
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May 10, 2019 18:27
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V. Illych L. posted:i absolutely detest the habit of simply importing historical-political analyses from america, because they almost never map well TheFluff posted:it's incredibly annoying and very pervasive too. people need to stop reading about trump all day or they'll get permanently brain damaged e: Obviously that's going with the assumption that this support exists in a meaningful fashion. It applies generally though to the question of ideological origins and affinities across countries, though clearly it doesn't extend backwards in time. The American strain could potentially overtake and replace the Norwegian one though. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 18:41 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 18:37
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Mercrom posted:I don't like being too reductive but maybe the reason conservatives causes intersect is mostly because they are conservative? the center party and labour are really both quite conservative parties though, unless by conservative you mean right-wing (or, if by conservative you mean right wing..?) A Buttery Pastry posted:I understand where you're coming from. What I'm arguing is that anti-abortion sentiment in Norway would also have an American origin if (like TERFs/FARTs in the UK) Norwegian anti-abortion advocates get a lot of support from their American counterparts to spread the parts of their ideologies that overlap. More American anti-abortion sentiment born out of racism would directly translate into increased anti-abortion sentiment in Norway in that scenario, even if Norwegian anti-abortionists were anti-racist. i mean i'm sure some american churches do this sort of ecumenical support to norwegian communities, but this is blaming russia for trump levels of peripheral imo - there is no clear ideological cohesion between anti-abortionism and racism in norwegian politics outside of the very broadest right-wing tendency in the history of the country and there are a hundred factors more important than american funding and training to their actual political practice. the usual ensemble of reactionary think-tanks usually bet on FrP, which is reflected in how FrP often gets the american right's talking points at the exact same time as the actual american right whereas the rhethorical thrust of the anti-abortionists is entirely incoherent to what it is in america ("baby killing" vs "abortion is skirting eugenics")
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May 10, 2019 18:51
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V. Illych L. posted:i mean i'm sure some american churches do this sort of ecumenical support to norwegian communities, but this is blaming russia for trump levels of peripheral imo - there is no clear ideological cohesion between anti-abortionism and racism in norwegian politics outside of the very broadest right-wing tendency in the history of the country and there are a hundred factors more important than american funding and training to their actual political practice. the usual ensemble of reactionary think-tanks usually bet on FrP, which is reflected in how FrP often gets the american right's talking points at the exact same time as the actual american right whereas the rhethorical thrust of the anti-abortionists is entirely incoherent to what it is in america ("baby killing" vs "abortion is skirting eugenics")
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May 10, 2019 19:12
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V. Illych L. posted:that seems like a peculiarly american analysis imo, you can say a lot of stuff among krf but white supremacist they are not V. Illych L. posted:anti-abortionism in norway is ideologically based in our home-grown lay protestants, which are much more puritan and somewhat grimmer than the american evangelicals. they've hated abortion since before they spoke english, but also fund some of the most effective integration efforts in the country, becoming effective anti-racists This depends on how you define "white supremacist" imo. Yeah, they're generally not neo-nazis, nor does there really exist a KKK analogy, but a whole lot of them harbor huge "white savior" complexes, which is what fuels a lot of these efforts. And while they might want to send aid (and especially missionaries), it is my guess that only the most pious would want to extend actual hospitality. From talking to these people a lot of them will ape the same talking points that your run-of-the-mill white supremacist do. They're scared of brown people, and especially muslims. Coming to Jesus is not the same as coming to Norway, and there's no hope for Palestinians. V. Illych L. posted:we're importing some stuff - e.g the Visjon Norge crowd - but while they're important enough that they're listened to, they are by no means the mainstream of political christianity in norway, much less conservativism in general I'd be very surprised if there's not a huge overlap between Visjon Norge viewers and KrF voters. A lot of them have jumped ship to FrP, but Hareides gamble failed for a reason; it's not like only the "moderate" Christians are left.
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May 10, 2019 20:35
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Visjon Norge caters more to the Partiet De Kristne crowd, I guess.
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May 10, 2019 21:12
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Oh hey! He lasted a bit over a month and change, didn't he, before he pissed off not just the entire rest of Stortinget, but also... Russia. https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/russland-reagerer-kraftig-pa-kallmyrs-8-mai-tale/71066743 Dagbladet posted:Vi mener slike uttalelser er blasfemiske. Herr Kallmyr fant ingen takknemlige ord til de sovjetiske soldatene som frigjorde Europa og Norge fra nazismen, forvrengte Sovjetunionens rolle, krenket minnet til dem som kjempet mot fascisme uavhengig av deres politiske tilhørighet, skriver presseattaché ved den russiske ambassaden i Oslo, Timur Chekanov, i en e-post som ble sendt til Dagbladet og andre mottakere natt til lørdag. Can we just rename the ministry of Justice the ministry of Poetic Justice, at this point? I can not imagine the foreign-ministry being well pleased with this.
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May 11, 2019 07:27
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I feel like our current government might be better served by just not appointing a MoJ.
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May 11, 2019 09:02
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thotsky posted:This depends on how you define "white supremacist" imo. Yeah, they're generally not neo-nazis, nor does there really exist a KKK analogy, but a whole lot of them harbor huge "white savior" complexes, which is what fuels a lot of these efforts. And while they might want to send aid (and especially missionaries), it is my guess that only the most pious would want to extend actual hospitality. From talking to these people a lot of them will ape the same talking points that your run-of-the-mill white supremacist do. They're scared of brown people, and especially muslims. Coming to Jesus is not the same as coming to Norway, and there's no hope for Palestinians. honestly if you define 'white savior' complexes as basically white supremacist there's hardly any non-white supremacists in norway, including in explicitly anti-racist orgs. for the label to have much meaning it really needs to differentiate between groups in society - if we state that basocally all of norwegian politics is white supremacist, i can agree with that to an extent, but examining anti-abortionism in particular through that lense still doesn't make much sense i guess what i'm saying re krf is that i genuinely believe that they'd elect a non-white leader on the basis of faith, policy and political competence without much resistance on the racial front. of course their ideology is one of christian supremacy and there's a fair dollop of cultural chauvinism regarding other religions, but that is not the same as racial thinking - in fact, i'd say that krf's chauvinism is fairly explicitly non-racial and universalist, as everyone may find salvation in god and in hating fun krf are generally pro-migrant, pro-refugee and pro-foreign aid, and though many in the party are willing to sacrifice that on the altar of israel and abortion it makes no sense to subject norwegian lay christianity to the same analysis as the southern baptists in america, a church literally founded on the defence of slavery
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May 11, 2019 09:16
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when a scandinavian uses the word ”white” to describe race and poo poo it makes me want to flay my skin and jump in a septic tank
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May 11, 2019 12:00
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Wild Horses posted:when a scandinavian uses the word ”white” to describe race and poo poo it makes me want to flay my skin and jump in a septic tank eh, some groups like e.g. Hvit Valgallianse back in the nineties have identified themselves as primarily white, but what i'm assuming is the underlying point ("white"-on-"white" racism towards e.g. polish or baltic people, or romanians) is absolutely valid
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May 11, 2019 16:08
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Wild Horses posted:when a scandinavian uses the word ”white” to describe race and poo poo it makes me want to flay my skin and jump in a septic tank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15QFAppht5o&t=20s
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May 12, 2019 07:25
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Wild Horses posted:when a scandinavian uses the word ”white” to describe race and poo poo it makes me want to flay my skin and jump in a septic tank Swedish racists usually just divide it into Swedes and non-Swedes but they obviously need a word and "white" is far too Americanized so I've seen some use Swed-esque versions of Caucasian like "Vi måste värna om oss Caucasoider" Because the word needs to be bent in order to be used in Swedish then you got like "Caucasoid" "Caucasoider" "Caucasoidiska rasen" etc I don't know if those are even related to real words
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May 12, 2019 07:40
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Never heard this, just kaukasier. Seriously caucasoid? Like "ja vi måste bevara den caucasoidiska rasen?" Zombiepop fucked around with this message at 08:09 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 12, 2019 08:03
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I don't really hang with weirdos so I've never heard people talking about this stuff
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May 12, 2019 08:15
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Zzulu posted:I don't really hang with weirdos so I've never heard people talking about this stuff 
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May 12, 2019 08:59
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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Send an email to Rasbiologiska institutet Uppsala and ask them. They should know the preferred nomenclature
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May 12, 2019 09:05
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Zzulu posted:I don't really hang with weirdos so I've never heard people talking about this stuff Just lol if you didn't Google something in your youth and end up on flashback where some nazi rants at you that the reason you get a black screen of Quake 2 is because of a Jewish conspiracy to exterminate white people.
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May 12, 2019 09:42
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Isn't the Caucasus the area between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea?
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May 12, 2019 09:58
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Its probably a reference to Caucasian "race", which has been used in America as a way to refer to white people. Of course, Caucasian has little to do with skin color and more to do with bones, but hey, America used it that way, it can't be wrong.
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May 12, 2019 10:10
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Cynic Jester posted:Its probably a reference to Caucasian "race", which has been used in America as a way to refer to white people. Of course, Caucasian has little to do with skin color and more to do with bones, but hey, America used it that way, it can't be wrong.
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May 12, 2019 10:25
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the origin of modern racial taxonomy is pretty fascinating, because at the time (late 1700s iirc) there was a real debate going on trying to account for the perceived difference between human populations. lots of people were claiming that europeans were a different species to the others, which meant that there was no christian universal obligations towards them as they simply could not be saved the guy in question was a german who wanted to provide a politically and scientifically acceptable account of human population diversity without accepting the premise of humaboid speciation (whether this was for ethical reasons, e.g. 'let us not murder all the africans pls' or simply following the best scientific practice of the time is unclear), but he used phrenology and primitive linnean arguments to rehect the multi-species theory and replace it with a theory of sub-populations, or 'races'. he himself remained agnostic on the personality traits connected with these races, but noted that his european population had the most beautiful skull etc basically this became a sort of ethical compromise between the people who needed to see the rest of the world as basically human and the people who really wanted an account of why they were better than 'those people'. of course, phrenology is pseudoscientific nonsense and genetic anthropology has shown that any consistent conception of race is difficult to put together at best, so people have mostly gone back to just arbitrarily hating on those somehow different from them, thence spanish-descended people in america not counting as white (presumably this has to do with yankees condemning interbreeding with natives because the US is really weird about racial purity) so most modern scandiracists don't couch it in those terms, but use various euphemisms like islam or cultural conservativism or couch it in terms of investment efficiency or w/e. one can fortunately almost always tell that they're actually racist by them not applying the principles they apply to the outgroup to a general population
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May 12, 2019 10:44
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V. Illych L. posted:so most modern scandiracists don't couch it in those terms, but use various euphemisms like islam or cultural conservativism or couch it in terms of investment efficiency or w/e. one can fortunately almost always tell that they're actually racist by them not applying the principles they apply to the outgroup to a general population
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May 12, 2019 11:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:And yet the only person I've met who talked about race in Denmark (as opposed to just saying something casually racist) was of the "We need Assad to suppress the diseased mind of the Arab - they'd wage a bloody war of extermination on us if they ever got a chance at democracy because they're genetically incompatible with civilization" variety. obviously you get your lunatics and nazis as well, but this group doesn't generally care much about justifying their statements
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May 12, 2019 11:46
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V. Illych L. posted:obviously you get your lunatics and nazis as well, but this group doesn't generally care much about justifying their statements
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May 12, 2019 12:17
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MAKE EU LAGOM AGAIN So classy! 
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May 12, 2019 19:55
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Mela? MELA? MELA!
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May 12, 2019 20:14
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Clayton Bigsby posted:MAKE EU LAGOM AGAIN Nothing says lagom like Sara Skyttedal, right? E: C has some amazing nonsense as well. Like I'm pretty sure It's even dumber. It's our healthy Swedish food that needs to be exported because, apparently, everyone else cooks with antibiotics... Potrzebie fucked around with this message at 20:30 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 12, 2019 20:23
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They’re taking up the Assange case again, here come the dumb conspiracy theories.
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May 13, 2019 10:59
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"Caucasian" is one of those extremely American words that lets you know that the Scandinavian person who said it is a terminally online alt-righter, pizzagater and Trump-supporter. Old-school Swedish for the same would just be "vit" or "arier" - the former pretty racist and the latter loving racist. Ironically, in the land of Big Daddy Putin "Caucasian" means swarthy Muslim.
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May 13, 2019 20:55
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Ironically, in the land of Big Daddy Putin "Caucasian" means swarthy Muslim.
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May 13, 2019 21:19
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It doesn't, but that is how the word is used in Russia.
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May 13, 2019 21:45
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