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Tom Guycot posted:This really seems like just "locking it down is evil. Facebook is evil. Therefor they will lock it down" baseless thinking. lol imagine thinking this in tyool two thousand loving 19. they'll lock it down as soon as they think they have enough market traction to get away with it.
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May 15, 2019 05:22
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Truga posted:lol imagine thinking this in tyool two thousand loving 19. Exactly. Facebook did not give two shits about the Go, and the Rift was an enthusiast-tier device. The Quest is the real prize because it targets everyone. That is why they're now putting their own people up top to govern Oculus. You can lock something like the Quest down airtight and all the average person can do is shrug and give up their personal data with a Facebook account because it'll be the only way to play Quest games. Especially when it has literally zero competition to give them any incentive not to do otherwise. You're also forgetting that their OpenXR contributions have been about getting content on their platform rather than the other way around. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 05:43 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 05:39
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Harminoff posted:I'd be happy to test it on my Dell visor Dizz posted:I will put it on my wish list! Wowee, I didn't expect several people to be interested. What an embarrassment of riches! I'll write all your usernames down and be sure to DM you when I have the next build out. Since it might be a while, feel free to hang out with our motley crew at https://discord.gg/stacksquatch. For something a little more thread-relevant, is Beat Saber good without mods? I have PCVR but very little physical space so I never bought it. I'm considering getting it for the Quest but everyone's making the vanilla version sound like baby's first dumpster fire.
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May 15, 2019 05:42
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Tom Guycot posted:This really seems like just "locking it down is evil. Facebook is evil. Therefor they will lock it down" baseless thinking. They haven't locked down the go, or the quest, and I don't see why they ever would in the future. Way to completely ignore every game console ever made, and also apple
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May 15, 2019 05:45
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Beat Saber is hella good, even without mods. The included songs are what got people so excited about it even before there was a mod community. Easily worth the money IMO.
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May 15, 2019 05:46
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Also at five years post acquisition with well over a thousand employees according to LinkedIn, instead of the 75 at acquisition. At nearly 20 times their old size, there's no meaningful distinction between "Oculus people" and "Facebook people". "Installing their own people"...as if there is some sort of discrimination between old Oculus and new Oculus. Creating a mythos of anointed chosen ones and barbarians out to destroy it is dumb. Doctor w-rw-rw- fucked around with this message at 06:04 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 06:00
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Supersaber exists as an open source clone of Beatsaber and is fully compatible with the Beatsaber file format. If you're smart enough to sideload your own mp3s, you'll probably be smart enough to sideload a quest-optimized supersaber apk Don't believe me check this out https://aframe.io/examples/showcase/beatsaver-viewer/ They also have a sound boxing clone. https://webvr.soundboxing.co/ And these full featured games are just written in sloppy JavaScript. It's like Tetris. Early game, simple yet addictive, will be tons of clones free or otherwise. People are still wrenching on open source DDR clones in 2019.
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May 15, 2019 06:06
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its still "Bad company do specific bad thing because it bad" "but why?" "because bad" Seriously, why hasn't google stripped side loading out of android? Why hasn't microsoft locked windows down into needing to use the microsoft store? Why didn't oculus keep fighting to block revive? They're not a good company, no company is, but that doesn't mean anything you blindly point to thats bad they'll do because "they bad". They'd still have to have side loading turned on for development units, for their new commercial use units, and if they're already doing that why specifically lock out the rest of future ones? To stop the next beat saber from being developed by someone in their bedroom? To stop people from throwing on homebrew stuff? To push every one of those people to competing platforms that they can actually develop stuff on? In its place they gain... people who were already going to buy from their store, buying on it anyways? They haven't locked any down, there appears to be no plans to lock anything down, and the only reason people can give why they think they'll do a 180 and start locking it down is "lol they bad".
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May 15, 2019 06:22
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How long is the cable that comes with the Rift S? I live in an apartment and next to the kitchen is a larger living room area that I can make a bit of room in. There is the Quest as well, but going by the VR compatibility tool on steam my system seems pretty set on it, if that is an indicator. (I do have a GTX 1070) And Facebook walled garden aside I am slightly wary on how long it will last with what is basically cell phone tech. Then again so does the Switch and this is probably more powerful than that.
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May 15, 2019 06:29
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Tom Guycot posted:They haven't locked any down, there appears to be no plans to lock anything down, and the only reason people can give why they think they'll do a 180 and start locking it down is "lol they bad". Because they keep actively demonstrating that, in fact, "lol they bad". It's why they get taken to court repeatedly and have been pulled up in front of the US Senate. Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Also at five years post acquisition with well over a thousand employees according to LinkedIn, instead of the 75 at acquisition. At nearly 20 times their old size, there's no meaningful distinction between "Oculus people" and "Facebook people". Who sits at the top matters a lot, because they filter what actually gets mandated of the studio from above and can mitigate or stop the worst parts. Swapping Oculus old guard for someone from Facebook means that is no longer the case. If you look at the productions on some of the better TV shows ever made, you'll hear stories about how the only reason they made the show they did without network interference is because the guy running production had the clout to tell them to gently caress off.
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May 15, 2019 06:31
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Tom Guycot posted:its still "Bad company do specific bad thing because it bad"
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May 15, 2019 06:33
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Sweet merciful crap stop bringing up cruel reality in my virtual reality thread.
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May 15, 2019 06:39
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Of course they're bad, they're all horrible, but my point is that specific thing theres no reason to expect. Anymore than, as I've already said, noted bad companies google, and microsoft for example, don't lock down android and windows. Being lovely doesn't mean indiscriminately doing every lovely thing you point at. Facebook could also put little knives in the headset and if they detect you haven't logged into facebook they poke out your eyes. Why not? They bad. I'm not saying they never will lock some future headset down, who knows what will happen. What I do think is stupid though is saying "yeah they'll probably pull a 180 and lock it down" based on no evidence other than "so far they've made sure not to lock them down, but, they bad". Until theres some evidence at least that they're looking to lock down their stand alone headsets, its all just dumb rear end FUD.
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May 15, 2019 06:42
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Tom Guycot posted:Of course they're bad, they're all horrible, but my point is that specific thing theres no reason to expect. Anymore than, as I've already said, noted bad companies google, and microsoft for example, don't lock down android and windows. What you're missing is that it's not just about game development. Facebook really want their VR division to be a social platform as well, they made that abundantly clear with F8, which means it has to be welded shut because of the personal data that will be moving through it. And if they close off the next iteration they can bake all that facebook-y social platform stuff right into the main interface.
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May 15, 2019 06:49
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Cheap Chinese headsets will probably get inside out tracking within two years and then lock in won't matter anymore Anyone remember when people were importing those $200 BenQ 27" 1440 IPS monitors from South Korea while Samsung was still selling Americans a 22" 1050p (not even a full 1080p) TN display for $329 and then two years later everyone was selling 27" displays for $199 The index is pretty cool, if that Frunk gets used for anything, it'll be developing open source inside out tracking Oculus is going for vendor lock in/walled garden ala apple app store, but it's a race to see how far ahead they are of the open source copy cats.
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May 15, 2019 06:51
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It already is in the main interface, at least such as they have right now, and they could add anything more they wanted. No part of "integrating more social media" into the device translates to "remove side loading". Social media flow pretty well through android on phones, or windows, while those are open to any software people want to put on. You already have to register your oculus account as a developer account to turn on side loading for the device, what sense does completely removing that ability for some headsets do? They still need to allow people to develop on the units, and commercial buyers load their own software anyways.
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May 15, 2019 06:55
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It's a game console and they need to make sure they get a cut of every game sold. Come the gently caress on, this is game consoles 101
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May 15, 2019 06:56
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OpenXR is bad now because Oculus is supporting it, got it
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May 15, 2019 06:58
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yes, that's exactly what people are saying. bring back bargefink
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May 15, 2019 07:07
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Because they keep actively demonstrating that, in fact, "lol they bad". It's why they get taken to court repeatedly and have been pulled up in front of the US Senate. IMO they get pulled up in front of the senate because they're a relatable target that's not pristine enough to escape the scrutiny of several-year-old-fuckups that were resolved (non-transparently) and which had a ton of bad-faith and disingenuous actors including nation states dedicating time and effort to compromising. That deserves tough scrutiny but I don't think it's a prima facie case of "they are in court and at the senate often and therefore bad", nor is it a "they only want to build a data-grabbing product therefore they will lock it down". It's not hard to even come up with a mildly hostile interpretation to not lock it down - "they want to build a data-grabbing product on top of a successful - and therefore open - platform" VR will be the same way. Maybe because of Facebook, or maybe if some other company wins out, what privacy even means when you can control either the fabric of reality or an overlay on top of it is going to change. Whatever players exist in the space are going to be holding the bag for whatever problems or controversies get brought up. It might be a Valve exec. It might be a Facebook exec. It might even be a pre-acquisition Oculus exec or even Palmer himself. And Jason Rubin joined after the acquisition, so I really just think that the narrative that "Oculus good Facebook bad" is flawed in every way. A better case needs to be made as to who owns Oculus' missteps and what distinction there really is if you assign that to a particular category of anointed ones or whomever. Also people praised D&D for their great writing on GoT but look where we are now, with the shitshow that is. That ain't a problem triggered by interference form above. Heroes can become villains. O.G. Oculus people aren't going to save anything just from being O.G.
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May 15, 2019 07:10
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Facebook sucks and their privacy stuff sucks but "they're making a console" is not the reason they suck nor is it particularly nefarious
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May 15, 2019 07:16
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:"they want to build a data-grabbing product on top of a successful - and therefore open - platform"
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May 15, 2019 07:16
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How about "facebook won't lock it down because developers, developers, developers, developers." You can make up reasons for anything, but the only facts right now are that they made the Go even easier than the gearVR to sideload to, and the Quest will be the same.
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May 15, 2019 07:20
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no, i'm actually convinced they won't lock this down for the reason stated above, because a vulnerable data collecting device is actually worse than a closed one, so they'll go with that lmao
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May 15, 2019 07:28
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Tom Guycot posted:Why hasn't microsoft locked windows down into needing to use the microsoft store? I'm getting Windows RT flashbacks 
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May 15, 2019 07:40
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Tom Guycot posted:How about "facebook won't lock it down because developers, developers, developers, developers." Locking it down doesn't mean zero developers, it means developers play by their rules. The only people actually locked out are anyone looking to play with it for exploits and general hacker/cracker shenanigans. Same as literally every console ever, as others have pointed out repeatedly. Also the Go is not a comparison for anything. It was never going to set the world on fire and the Quest is, again, the real BIG PRIZE; Full PC-grade VR on a platform they control from top to bottom. Tom Guycot posted:It already is in the main interface, at least such as they have right now, and they could add anything more they wanted. No part of "integrating more social media" into the device translates to "remove side loading". Social media flow pretty well through android on phones, or windows, while those are open to any software people want to put on. They don't own that hardware, they have to play by other platform's rules. And they've done some pretty loving sketchy things even with just web browsers looking their website. The Quest is theirs to literally do with as they please. Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:"they want to build a data-grabbing product on top of a successful - and therefore open - platform" The last thing you do with data-grabbing products is make it easy for everyone can see how and what kind of data they're harvesting. And there is a lot to take from someone in VR, especially as the tech develops, to the point they can basically pull you wholesale from biometrics to opinions to lifestyle. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 08:13 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 08:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Locking it down doesn't mean zero developers, it means developers play by their rules. The only people actually locked out are anyone looking to play with it for exploits and general hacker/cracker shenanigans. Same as literally every console ever, as others have pointed out repeatedly. The problem is Developers now have to either buy (in which case anyone could buy) special developer hardware for the Quest, or have it only given out to select developers like traditional consoles. They would be cutting out every hobbyist or independent developer who wants to work with the hardware, so now you're just pushing them to other hardware platforms if they want to experiment with mobile VR development. My only point this whole time, is you're coming to a conclusion based purely on speculation, while the idea of it being open is backed by the fact they made the Go easier to sideload than the GearVR, and they've kept that same ability going forward on the Quest. They could have locked out either of them, but they actively didn't so any Quest (or go) can be used for development work. Those are the only facts to go off of, and they point in a direction towards them wanting it to be open for independent developers to work on and get used to their platform. If that changes in the future it changes, but as of right now theres no reason besides wild theory crafting why they'll pull a complete 180.
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May 15, 2019 08:41
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Tom Guycot posted:The problem is Developers now have to either buy (in which case anyone could buy) special developer hardware for the Quest, or have it only given out to select developers like traditional consoles. They would be cutting out every hobbyist or independent developer who wants to work with the hardware, so now you're just pushing them to other hardware platforms if they want to experiment with mobile VR development. The Go does not matter. The GearVR Does. Not. Matter. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. They do not, and never had, the same potential mass-appeal as the Quest does. Oculus also already cuts out all the hobbyists, and probably a few indies, with strict quality-control requirements on what they will permit to release on the Quest. You also don't need special hardware because they built the thing on the OpenXR standard specifically so they could funnel games into their platforms and not the other way around. This is a know thing. Facebook is first and foremost two things; Social media and metadata harvesting. VR is a platform they can ride the poo poo out of on both, and will based on the tech they've shown at F8, but they can't pull any of that with an open platform in the way Facebook fundamentally (and often underhandedly) operates. Especially when they keep getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar by watchdogs poking at exposed API's. The only way they get a nice neat VR social platform is if they lock it down airtight. And it's not just that they'll lock it down on general principle, it's that they have zero incentive to not do it. We have over ten years of watching how Facebook operates, and a lock-down platform they can control and harvest social metadata freely on is basically their wet dream. It's why they're pumping so much money into Oculus, because they know it's gonna pay off big-time in more ways than just game sales. Here's what you could pull with a Facebook-driven VR headset, that nobody can actually see you doing because you locked it down and it's not talking to anything user-driven along the way. And you could frankly probably do it with the Quest as-is;
That's on top of whatever else you've put in a Facebook profile, and doesn't even get into the stuff they showed off at F8.
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May 15, 2019 09:09
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Yeah, bad company bad. None of that is a reason why they'll lock out side loading, something, for the 4th time now, they made easier with the Go and continued with the Quest. But you're right, letting you side load on the Go and Quest is all part of their plan to then take it away because ??? reasons. Everything you're ranting about has jack and poo poo to do with the fact, their 2 stand alone headsets allow side loading, and they've given no indication thats going to change.
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May 15, 2019 09:22
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Lemming posted:OpenXR is bad now because Oculus is supporting it, got it
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May 15, 2019 09:29
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Tom Guycot posted:Yeah, bad company bad. I just told you why; the social platform aspects are a FAR bigger prize than game sales. Also you're massively overestimating how much the average person cares about sideloading. They care about Beat Saber, SuperhotVR and Job Simulator. They won't care about some one-man indie dev not making it into the store with big-name titles to pick from. How'd Linux on the PS3 turn out? Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 09:36 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 09:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I just told you why; the social platform aspects are a FAR bigger prize than game sales. Exactly, the average person doesn't care about sideloading, so why would they give a poo poo about locking out anyone who wants to start playing around with mobile VR development? They can do all their data poo poo just fine as is. You're literally basing your judgment that this will "probably" happen on nothing. Hell, less than nothing when the current evidence all points in the opposite direction. Bad company bad, yeah yeah, I know. gently caress, I'm not even trying to defend facebook here, they're a poo poo rear end company like all companies. Being poo poo doesn't mean they're going to put the eye spikes in the next headset, viruses on your computer, and sneak into your house to kill your dog. They're not cackling villains, they're amoral entities, and like countless others it doesn't mean they're going to do every bad thing you can think of just because its bad. In this case they've shown no desire to restrict side loading, because it aids their efforts by presenting things as developer friendly and a device to work on, instead of just loving off to another device that doesn't block them from working on it.
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May 15, 2019 09:50
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Tom Guycot posted:In this case they've shown no desire to restrict side loading, because it aids their efforts by presenting things as developer friendly and a device to work on, instead of just loving off to another device that doesn't block them from working on it. I think a big thing you're missing here is what other device? PCVR? Sure, but it won't have anywhere near the hit rate a Quest title can potentially have. Unless Nintendo or Sony suddenly pull a standalone VR console out of the ether, which by all accounts is pretty loving unlikely anytime soon, the Quest is it for mainstream VR development. Lower spec requirements than PCVR are in the developer's favour, but they gotta play by Facebook rules to get into that walled garden and Facebook can pretty much do whatever they please without any real reprisal inside it now. And sideloaders going away will actually upset... well, nobody they care about really  .
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May 15, 2019 09:59
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Hadlock posted:Cheap Chinese headsets will probably get inside out tracking within two years and then lock in won't matter anymore I dunno if you noticed but Cheap Chinese headsets don't and won't ever come anywhere near the quality / attention to detail of an Oculus product, not in comfort and especially not in the optics department. So yeah lock-in will still matter because Oculus makes the headsets that Joe Schmoe actually wants, and wants to buy more games for. Pimax had a small army of kickerstarter backers and beta testers shouting advice at them all day and still overlooked a lot of things that Facebook has entire teams with world-class engineers and scientists devoted towards. Truga posted:yes, that's exactly what people are saying. Don't do it, if you say his name 3 times he'll appear like Candyman
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May 15, 2019 10:00
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Zero VGS posted:I dunno if you noticed but Cheap Chinese headsets don't and won't ever come anywhere near the quality / attention to detail of an Oculus product, not in comfort and especially not in the optics department. They just have to get close enough in quality while being much cheaper, which always eventually happens.
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May 15, 2019 10:02
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I'm glad that despite all odds, posters stanning for facebook still exist in TYOOL 2019.Tom Guycot posted:Being poo poo doesn't mean they're going to put the eye spikes in the next headset, viruses on your computer, and sneak into your house to kill your dog. No, facebook certainly doesn't do anything obviously bad like that, they just help with genocides a little bit here and there. We'll see what happens either way a couple years from now. Docto 666 already described a situation that's likely to end up far worse for the consumer than a locked down platform, so I'm 99% sure that's where facebook will go instead. Because with facebook you just have to imagine the worst possible scenario for the end user, and that's most likely what's going on. 
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May 15, 2019 10:03
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SCheeseman posted:They just have to get close enough in quality while being much cheaper, which always eventually happens. You still need a storefront, and you'd essentially be going up against the VR equivalent of Nintendo with an OUYA.
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May 15, 2019 10:04
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Truga posted:I'm glad that despite all odds, posters stanning for facebook still exist in TYOOL 2019. lol, stanning for facebook, thats a new one. Just sitting over here, "stanning" for facebook, surfin' some big data Theres no ethical consumption, and you deal with a million even worse companies every day and theres nothing you can do about it
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May 15, 2019 10:16
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So what are the odds of Google Earth VR getting ported to the Quest? I saw that it was available on the regular Rift but wasn't available on the Go.
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May 15, 2019 10:20
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8one6 posted:So what are the odds of Google Earth VR getting ported to the Quest? I saw that it was available on the regular Rift but wasn't available on the Go. I dunno, it would certainly be a great app to have on there, but I wonder if its not a bit too demanding to run. Google has already brought Tilt Brush over, so if they are able to run it on the Quest, I suppose it wouldn't be out of the question.
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May 15, 2019 10:23
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