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QuoProQuid posted:what do you consider h.r. 1, the green new deal, and the equality act? how do you feel about every democratic candidate for president endorsing expansions of healthcare, welfare, and climate policies that would have been unthinkable a few years ago?
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May 18, 2019 18:39
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QuoProQuid posted:also, because people are thrusting joe biden at me, let me be clear that I support sanders, warren, and (in the bizarro world where he is viable) inslee No one is "thrusting" Joe Biden at you. You entered a discussion about Joe Biden being a demonstration of the value of "vote blue no matter who". You stepped into this shitpile of your own accord. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:42 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 18:40
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:So you do not have a plan, I see. You can just admit instead of pretending the details are impossible. I find it very odd that you say "I'm telling you what will work" yet you told me nothing beyond the platitude? You refuse to support leaders who refuse to support you. That's what works. Supporting leaders who publicly demonstrate that they will not hesitate to stab you in the back to further their own acquisition of power is a mugs game. The present status quo is a thorough demonstration of the failures of the present status quo.
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May 18, 2019 18:42
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:Refusing to vote and making protest votes for fringe candidate is no credible threat
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May 18, 2019 18:43
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bloom posted:Noted left-winger... Joe "Cool Trump" Biden? Prester Jane posted:You mean the out-of-touche douchebag who walked straight off the set of Mad Men/is proud of talking down to the younger generation about how their problems boil down to just not wanting to work hard? That is your evidence of the party moving left? ryonguy posted:This, for loving real. Seeing mother loving Biden as a left candidate and not the same goddamn rightward lurch by Dems in response to the Republicans turning into Nazis in all but name is willful stupidity. I must have phrased that poorly because my point is that after a loss, the current front runner is MORE right wing than last time. Biden is actually the democrat yall liked to pretend Hillary was. Meanwhile after 8 years of Obama the platform and stated policies of the primary candidates had moved to his left. I've never seen any indication that being out of power will make the party better and every indication it will make it worse.
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May 18, 2019 18:45
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Hillary wasn't to the left of Obama.
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May 18, 2019 18:50
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7c Nickel posted:I must have phrased that poorly because my point is that after a loss, the current front runner is MORE right wing than last time. Biden is actually the democrat yall liked to pretend Hillary was. Meanwhile after 8 years of Obama the platform and stated policies of the primary candidates had moved to his left. I've never seen any indication that being out of power will make the party better and every indication it will make it worse. Have you considered that Obama, Biden, and Clinton are all 3 the same sort of centrist melts and in fact the 3 of them come from the base of power that is doing everything possible to negate the leftward push?
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May 18, 2019 18:50
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Orange Devil posted:Hillary wasn't to the left of Obama. I specifically said "the platform and stated policies" to try and avoid this poo poo. Those things are irrefutably to the left of Obama but I guess we can get into a mind reading competition where we declare that they're all a cover for eating babies. And even if he did not win, Sander's relative success was a far better showing for the left than you saw in previous primaries. 7c Nickel fucked around with this message at 19:00 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 18:57
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What do the platforms and stated policies of primary candidates matter when the primary candidate who wins isn't any of that? Next question is what do the platforms and stated policies of any candidate matter when the candidate isn't any of that? Campaign Obama was to the left of president Obama after all.
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May 18, 2019 19:12
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7c Nickel posted:I must have phrased that poorly because my point is that after a loss, the current front runner is MORE right wing than last time. Biden is actually the democrat yall liked to pretend Hillary was. Meanwhile after 8 years of Obama the platform and stated policies of the primary candidates had moved to his left. I've never seen any indication that being out of power will make the party better and every indication it will make it worse.
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May 18, 2019 19:14
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7c Nickel posted:I specifically said "the platform and stated policies" to try and avoid this poo poo. Those things are irrefutably to the left of Obama but I guess we can get into a mind reading competition where we declare that they're all a cover for eating babies. And even if he did not win, Sander's relative success was a far better showing for the left than you saw in previous primaries. The target of the criticisms bring raised in this thread is "Democratic Leadership", specifically individuals like Joe Biden or Pelosi or Schumer. No one has been discussing the Democratic platform during primaries. Because it's not the platform that is the problem, it's the constant betrayal of minorities by Democratic Leadership.
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May 18, 2019 19:14
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gently caress protest voting, just vote for whoever can slow our inevitable decline as much as possible. Hope is dead, all you can hope for is for things to stay as bad as they are right now instead of worse.
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May 18, 2019 19:16
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Prester Jane posted:You refuse to support leaders who refuse to support you. That's what works. Supporting leaders who publicly demonstrate that they will not hesitate to stab you in the back to further their own acquisition of power is a mugs game. But what are you doing then? Is it nothing? Because the only solid thing I seem to get out of you is "do nothing". What is it that you support doing when voting is apparently disallowed. The status quo involves many people who refuse to do voting though, so it is quite a humor that you use it as proof you should continue to do nothing. twodot posted:I agree this is a poor credible threat, but are you offering a better alternative? For the moment, it appears the best threat available to me. If you truly believe the only thing to do is nothing, I wonder why you even still live or post? People will complain that nazis march in the streets and elect their own brother nazi to offices, yet declare that what should be done to prevent this is nothing. Very interesting, it sounds exactly like what a nazi would want their opponent to do. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2019 19:16
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:If you truly believe the only thing to do is nothing, I wonder why you even still live or post?
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May 18, 2019 19:22
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Also I'm not sure what good "deep concern" over whether the Democratic base is conservative or not does anyone. Unless you think climate change isn't real and fascists are faking it / actually cool and good, it seems like you'd just go immediately from realizing it to "oh gently caress what do we do about it, because the alternative is death" rather than lord it over everyone else like a god-damned brain genius. Like yeah, most of us realize that the building materials we have to work with in building a society that doesn't self-annihilate in the coming decades are, to put it lightly, wanting. Thanks to y'all for reminding everyone - now what do you propose to do about it?
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May 18, 2019 19:24
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AceOfFlames posted:gently caress protest voting, just vote for whoever can slow our inevitable decline as much as possible. Hope is dead, all you can hope for is for things to stay as bad as they are right now instead of worse.
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May 18, 2019 19:27
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Also I'm not sure what good "deep concern" over whether the Democratic base is conservative or not does anyone. Unless you think climate change isn't real and fascists are faking it / actually cool and good, it seems like you'd just go immediately from realizing it to "oh gently caress what do we do about it, because the alternative is death" rather than lord it over everyone else like a god-damned brain genius. Like yeah, most of us realize that the building materials we have to work with in building a society that doesn't self-annihilate in the coming decades are, to put it lightly, wanting. Thanks to y'all for reminding everyone - now what do you propose to do about it? Given this, do you understand that people believe that while Joe Biden will be a better president than Trump, he will still not be nearly able to address these coming catastrophes? Like it's an open question imo if 4 more years of Trump is worse than 8 years of Biden followed by a republican A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 19:32 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 19:29
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A big flaming stink posted:Given this, do you understand that people believe that while Joe Biden will be a better president than Trump, he will still not be nearly able to address these coming catastrophes? We're in total agreement from the look of it. I guess my other post was just worded oddly 
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May 18, 2019 19:35
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twodot posted:When it comes to voting I think the thing to do is not vote for bad people. If your complaint about that is it is not a good threat, I'm asking you for a better one, because I think a better threat would be great. Do you have one? If you truly can not think of what might be more of a threat to someone than "I, person who refuse to vote, will also not vote for you"? I do not think you are capable of executing on such threats so it is somewhat pointless. You will continue to be the fascist lackey by refusing to act at all. The nature of the word "threat" should be clear in English is it not?
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May 18, 2019 19:38
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:If you truly can not think of what might be more of a threat to someone than "I, person who refuse to vote, will also not vote for you"? I do not think you are capable of executing on such threats so it is somewhat pointless. You will continue to be the fascist lackey by refusing to act at all. I'm pretty goddamn sure that everyone participating in this discussion is a loyal Democratic voter. Take this bad faith nonsense elsewhere. We're talking about people who are voters and who frequently are volunteers and activists who are contemplating refusing to vote. That is a threat.
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May 18, 2019 19:39
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Also, FYI, if Biden is the nominee and loses, it will be blamed on the left and their damned Purity Tests. If the numbers don't back that up, it won't matter (it didn't in 2016, after all). Likewise, if Biden wins, that will be taken as evidence (like they ever needed it) that moving to the left is a mistake. I guess most of y'all already get that, but just putting it out there in case some of you don't.
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May 18, 2019 19:44
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:If this is your rallying cry then you'll be making a go of it mostly alone. It's not that you're wrong, per se - it's just that you're not inspiring. It's even possible to be "vote blue no matter who" while being super-disappointed to the point of existential despair over the state of the Democratic, because you realize that while you may turn out no matter what, a lot of people won't and the numbers will be enough to make the difference. (I have found, however, that most "vote blue no matter who" people are not like this.) That's what I don't get: who the hell needs "inspiration"? I am going to vote in the European Elections in a party that was chosen for me via a "which of these policies do you agree with" online quiz. Why can't everyone do the same? Isn't policy supposed to be the only thing that matters? I don't even care about politicians' names. My ideal ruler would be someone who trained for it all their life, doesn't even leave their office and makes their decisions based on reports given to them by other equally faceless members of the government. I don't care about "getting a beer" with a President (I hate beer). Just don't be an rear end in a top hat and make life better for everyone. That's all I ask.
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May 18, 2019 19:49
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I have yet to see a single reasonable argument as to why protest voting would be morally acceptable even in a non-FPTP system. You'd still ultimately be attempting to influence one of the two parties anyway, or force them into a coalition government, which is just "one of the two parties" by a slightly different mechanism... one which can easily break down and give comfort to the enemy if the coalition fails to do its loving job at any point. I remain convinced democracy is completely unsustainable in any form whatsoever on a scale larger than the small town level, and thus mankind's only hope of long-term survival on this planet is a extremist leftist global authoritarian state that violently suppresses all forms of regressive thought with extreme and broad prejudice. But until that happens, democracy is an necessary evil we must abide by and manipulate towards our revolutionary ends. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2019 19:49
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Yeah, that's my point. He's better than Trump but the big problems of Nazi resurgence and climate change remain whether he is elected President or Trump. As such, refusing to show up for him, in hopes that his loss further weakens the Dem establishment's grip on the party, even if you think this gamble doesn't have much chance of success, is a viable strategy, because in either case (Biden wins, or Biden loses but the gamble fails) we're still looking down the double-barreled shotgun of climate change and fascism.   Kerning Chameleon posted:I have yet to see a single reasonable argument as to why protest voting would be morally acceptable even in a non-FPTP system. You'd still ultimately be attempting to influence one of the two parties anyway, or force them into a coalition government, which is just "one of the two parties" by a slightly different mechanism... one which can easily break down and give comfort to the enemy if the coalition fails to do its loving job at any point. 
A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 19:58 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 19:55
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I'm not sure what the solution is since I am just another person on the internet with no importance but voting for Democrats without question has led us to the current situation where a loser like Biden is leading the polls despite being everything wrong with the Democratic party so the current plan clearly isn't working. I've said it before but I think the Democrats have led us past the Rubicon where we are absolutely hosed either way if it's between Biden and Trump so joining in on that disaster doesn't really make a difference.
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May 18, 2019 19:55
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:If you truly can not think of what might be more of a threat to someone than "I, person who refuse to vote, will also not vote for you"? I do not think you are capable of executing on such threats so it is somewhat pointless. You will continue to be the fascist lackey by refusing to act at all.
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May 18, 2019 19:55
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I have yet to see a single reasonable argument as to why protest voting would be morally acceptable even in a non-FPTP system. You'd still ultimately be attempting to influence one of the two parties anyway, or force them into a coalition government, which is just "one of the two parties" by a slightly different mechanism... one which can easily break down and give comfort to the enemy if the coalition fails to do its loving job at any point. AceOfFlames posted:That's what I don't get: who the hell needs "inspiration"? I am going to vote in the European Elections in a party that was chosen for me via a "which of these policies do you agree with" online quiz. Why can't everyone do the same? Isn't policy supposed to be the only thing that matters? I don't even care about politicians' names. My ideal ruler would be someone who trained for it all their life, doesn't even leave their office and makes their decisions based on reports given to them by other equally faceless members of the government. I don't care about "getting a beer" with a President (I hate beer). Just don't be an rear end in a top hat and make life better for everyone. That's all I ask. I don't entirely understand it, either, but I know it to be true just empirically. Like I said: shoddy building materials.
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May 18, 2019 19:56
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:If you truly can not think of what might be more of a threat to someone than "I, person who refuse to vote, will also not vote for you"? I do not think you are capable of executing on such threats so it is somewhat pointless. You will continue to be the fascist lackey by refusing to act at all. I don't refuse to vote full stop, I refuse to vote for bad candidates. Big difference.
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May 18, 2019 19:57
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AceOfFlames posted:That's what I don't get: who the hell needs "inspiration"? I am going to vote in the European Elections in a party that was chosen for me via a "which of these policies do you agree with" online quiz. Why can't everyone do the same? Isn't policy supposed to be the only thing that matters? I don't even care about politicians' names. My ideal ruler would be someone who trained for it all their life, doesn't even leave their office and makes their decisions based on reports given to them by other equally faceless members of the government. I don't care about "getting a beer" with a President (I hate beer). Just don't be an rear end in a top hat and make life better for everyone. That's all I ask. Actually going out and voting in America is often very difficult to do and involves a pretty substantial amount of effort on the part of the person going to vote. That's why you need to give people a reason to jump through all those Hoops to actually go out and vote. That aside- people are not machines, people do not think like machines, keep people cannot be expected to conduct themselves as if they were machines, and people do not want machine like bureaucrats being their leaders. Why your particulat ideal of a government official appeals to you on an individual level- I promise you the collective of the human race will never think similarly enough to you to vote like that. At the end of the day you absolutely need an actual leader pushing people to go in a specific direction. For better or worse that's just the nature of the beast when it comes to human nature.
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May 18, 2019 19:57
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Yeah people aren't saying don't vote for Democrats, they are saying don't vote for poo poo Democrats that work against your interests.
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May 18, 2019 19:57
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Prester Jane posted:I'm pretty goddamn sure that everyone participating in this discussion is a loyal Democratic voter. Take this bad faith nonsense elsewhere. We're talking about people who are voters and who frequently are volunteers and activists who are contemplating refusing to vote. That is a threat. You are being very confusing. First you say protest votes are good, now you claim to be loyal democratic voter? These are somewhat at odds from what I know about how American voting system works but I am not from your country. From what that I see, Democrats and Republicans are the two major parties in a first past the post system, where refusing to vote for one implicitly benefits the other. The only threat you make is that you will support Trump or a Trump lackey, which seems quite the counterproduct? Unless goal all along was just to punish yourself like the masochist fetishist wants. Allow me to be clear: I am propose that if you truly believe you cannot vote for a party that can win or hold political office at all, then protest votes and refusal of voting is not a working threat. Violence would be, and actual threats of violence - these are things that can change the situation for one who refuses to engage in constructive voting. twodot posted:Ah, I see you are in need of help. This is a thread about voting. Voting is a process where people indicate their choice amongst a selection or write in a choice not available in the selection. Those choices are tabulated and then, ordinarily, the majority choice enacted. In particular, this thread about voting is about voting for people for political office. As best as I can tell in that case my choices are reduced down to "vote only for good people" or "vote for good people, and also vote for bad people if I judge they are one of two people likely to win and less bad than the other person to win". Of those two choices it seems to me "vote only for good people" poses some sort of small threat to bad people whereas "vote for bad people sometimes" poses no threat whatsoever and actually supports bad people. Do you know how to fill out a ballot in a more threatening way? This is many words to say "I will refuse to do anything, but demand people accord me respect as if i did". Protest votes do not work in voting systems that prevent them from working and America's system certainly prevents it, most countries do as well.
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May 18, 2019 19:58
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AceOfFlames posted:That's what I don't get: who the hell needs "inspiration"? I am going to vote in the European Elections in a party that was chosen for me via a "which of these policies do you agree with" online quiz. Why can't everyone do the same? Isn't policy supposed to be the only thing that matters? I don't even care about politicians' names. My ideal ruler would be someone who trained for it all their life, doesn't even leave their office and makes their decisions based on reports given to them by other equally faceless members of the government. I don't care about "getting a beer" with a President (I hate beer). Just don't be an rear end in a top hat and make life better for everyone. That's all I ask. Voting in America is a nightmare that both parties would like to make even more difficult so that the only people who vote are white suburbanites
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May 18, 2019 20:00
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Because most people don't post in political forums and most people aren't doing complicated political calculus in their heads to figure out what to do next. Don't take your personal experiences, D&D poster, and apply them to the broader electorate. In that case why even have democracy in the first place?
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May 18, 2019 20:00
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America isn't a democracy.
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May 18, 2019 20:01
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:This is many words to say "I will refuse to do anything, but demand people accord me respect as if i did". Protest votes do not work in voting systems that prevent them from working and America's system certainly prevents it, most countries do as well.
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May 18, 2019 20:02
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:You are being very confusing. First you say protest votes are good, now you claim to be loyal democratic voter? I am a loyal Democratic voter who has held my nose and voted the party line many times; the allegation I was responding to was that I was a non-voter threatening not to vote, whereas I'm a loyal photo threatening to not vote. That's the threat. I was responding to an attempt to dismiss my criticisms by implying that everyone considering a protest vote is already a non-voter. When the people participating in this discussion are generally some of the most loyal voters who are frequently active in supporting the party through volunteer efforts.
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May 18, 2019 20:02
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:This is many words to say "I will refuse to do anything, but demand people accord me respect as if i did". Protest votes do not work in voting systems that prevent them from working and America's system certainly prevents it, most countries do as well.
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May 18, 2019 20:02
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Radish posted:Yeah people aren't saying don't vote for Democrats, they are saying don't vote for poo poo Democrats that work against your interests. Precisely. If your local Democrat is a good Democrat, then support them loyally. If your local Democrat is a pro-life Democrat/shitlib- they are a cancer that must be loudly and publicly excised from the party. Do not support them, do not donate to them, and loudly explain to everyone who will listen why you refuse to to do so. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 20:06 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 20:04
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Not voting for a party is one of the few actual threats you can leverage which is why the Democrats message so strongly on the idea that they own your vote and abstaining is theft.
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May 18, 2019 20:04
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In much the same way threatening to stab yourself is a good way to get your kids to clean their room. Protip!
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May 18, 2019 20:07
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