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Jesus. This sounds so stupid and at the same time as if the entirety of it hadn't been thought about at all.
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May 21, 2019 19:36
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It is completely crazy. There was a really good review of the test pack but I can't find it
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May 21, 2019 19:38
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@LatwPIAT #WhiteWolf Shane DeFreest was also hired back in some capacity around 2002. Kind of a slimy dude but deffo not Fash. Article: https://www.facebook.com/whitewolfp...54039816655465/
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May 21, 2019 19:46
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Mors Rattus posted:The Camarilla book had a section talking about how Chechnya was actually run directly by vampires, that painted the actual ruler of Chechnya as an insane vampire, and said that the purges of gay people were a smokecreen for vampires. Don't forget that it also pissed off Chechnya and Russia because their stated policy is that no such purge is happening because there are no gay people in Chechnya to purge. And if there were, their own families would send them to hell instead of the government.
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May 21, 2019 20:08
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food court bailiff posted:With the updated rules, can I ask about the inverse of the OP? Are there any people (either in the industry or leaders of the fan community) that have proven themselves to be allies/good actors? I know that anyone held up as a positive example has a hell of chance to get milkshake duck'd but I'd find it interesting and it might add a little splash of optimism to what's obviously a pretty heavy thread. I would make the argument that Games Workshop has absolutely proven themselves to be good actors in recent memory. In addition to being much more inclusive, my understanding is that they have no tolerance for Arch Warhammer and similar entities. Their new model ranges feature far less cringe-worthy demonstrations of women (for example the Stormcast Eternals from Age of Sigmar feature some really badass ladies in armor that's feminine but not obscene), and they also accepted a lot of really negative feedback about a racist model that looked like a Klansmen and redid it.
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May 21, 2019 20:21
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The Lancer RPG team seems pretty good. Some chud was whining on their twitter about how they shouldn't have politics in their mecha game, and they basically told him to sod off.
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May 21, 2019 20:27
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I would make the argument that Games Workshop has absolutely proven themselves to be good actors in recent memory. In addition to being much more inclusive, my understanding is that they have no tolerance for Arch Warhammer and similar entities. I really wish the following was on video so I can enjoy it every day. SteelMentor posted:I will never forget the intense, mocking laughter followed by a curt “No” the Community team gave to the chode who suggested they reach out and partner ArchWarhammer at one of the Community recruitment days I got into.
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May 21, 2019 20:34
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vkeios posted:I really wish the following was on video so I can enjoy it every day. It's my one true shame in life.
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May 21, 2019 20:38
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I would make the argument that Games Workshop has absolutely proven themselves to be good actors in recent memory. In addition to being much more inclusive, my understanding is that they have no tolerance for Arch Warhammer and similar entities. Their new model ranges feature far less cringe-worthy demonstrations of women (for example the Stormcast Eternals from Age of Sigmar feature some really badass ladies in armor that's feminine but not obscene), and they also accepted a lot of really negative feedback about a racist model that looked like a Klansmen and redid it. It's Forge World, but they even released female heads for simple headswap conversions of Stormcast. Almost makes me want to play them.
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May 21, 2019 20:39
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Desiden posted:The Lancer RPG team seems pretty good. Some chud was whining on their twitter about how they shouldn't have politics in their mecha game, and they basically told him to sod off. I know Tom and Miguel IRL and they're both decent dudes. Miguel in particular does a lot of local activism here in Portland. Tom is a self-identified capitalist which I have some opinions about but is on the whole pretty down with bashing the fash.
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May 21, 2019 21:55
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I thought Lancer was explicitly a Communist semi-utopia and the corporations in thensetting were the antagonist factions?
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May 21, 2019 22:31
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:...they [GW] also accepted a lot of really negative feedback about a racist model that looked like a Klansmen and redid it.
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May 21, 2019 22:52
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Dawgstar posted:It's Forge World, but they even released female heads for simple headswap conversions of Stormcast. Almost makes me want to play them. tallkidwithglasses posted:On a very related note, I think it would be cool to hear about community building tactics- especially because people often get into these games as a teen when they’re pretty susceptible to political extremism. I think a lot of posters currently have nice communities of people that don’t suck to play against, but it would be neat to think about how to keep communities vibrant and how to expand them- both to marginalized people and how to handle things if you end up with a wannabe Hitler youth showing up.
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May 21, 2019 23:46
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Nessus posted:I always thought one of the challenges for tiny mini game soldiers is making them visibly "female" without making them look like Venus of Willendorf, which was somewhat easier in Warmachine's scale than WH40k. However, this is possibly just pro-Warmahordes propaganda that got beaten into my noggin. Anatomically correct female toy soldiers, whether sci-fi or not, would be completely indistinguishable from their male counterparts, except possibly for the face. This is what a real life female soldier looks like in gear:  Notice that the bulk of the gear makes the outline of her body a totally genderless blob. If she was wearing a helmet and goggles there'd be no way to tell her from a freshly shaven dude with a unusually unmanly chin. A perfect representation of a woman soldier in sci-fi comes from the Space Marine game, which features this badass Imperial Guard lady who orders Space Marines around like it's nothing and is supremely competent in what she does:  Again, the bulk of the gear makes her outline completely genderless. The problem is that toy soldiers are, like so much else in culture, male by default. If there are no explicit and highly visible indications that the model is female, it is assumed to be male. And because it is very difficult to indicate that a soldier in bulky armor is female, we end up with poo poo like boobplate, and the expectation that female models be extremely exaggerated in their proportions. Even the newer female Sigmars are wearing boobplate and have giant hips and thighs.  Just about the easiest, zero effort and most progressive thing GW could do would be to have half the heads on their Imperial Guard and Golden Sigmars line be women and make literally no other changes to the model. Then say that Robert Guilliman found this one weird trick to let women be Space Marines and then do the same for the SM line. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 00:47 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 00:44
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Yeah with GW I think at some point they either forgot that the Imperium was supposed to be a parody of fascism and tried to portray it as less of a crapsack than it was meant to be, or got too subtle with it, but I don't think they themselves were ever actually run by fascists. The problem being that actual fascists didn't pick up on the fact that the Imperium is a shithole. From what I've seen, they've been winding all this poo poo back in and making it more fash-unfriendly, which is cool and good. I've been on the GW hate train for a long time but even I think they're getting a lot better, both with remembering the humor and parody of their setting, and making decent games. FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 00:53
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I would make the argument that Games Workshop has absolutely proven themselves to be good actors in recent memory. In addition to being much more inclusive, my understanding is that they have no tolerance for Arch Warhammer and similar entities. Their new model ranges feature far less cringe-worthy demonstrations of women (for example the Stormcast Eternals from Age of Sigmar feature some really badass ladies in armor that's feminine but not obscene), and they also accepted a lot of really negative feedback about a racist model that looked like a Klansmen and redid it. To put picture to it, here's the new base model for the line design of the new Sisters of Battle line. Note the lack of emphasis on the breastplate, lack of stilletto heels, and lack of objectification. She looks bad rear end. 
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May 22, 2019 00:54
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The best thing was when they showed off the new sisters heads and CHUDs hit the internet to call them fat and ugly rofl
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May 22, 2019 00:56
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Nessus posted:I'd be extremely interested in this too, at the very worst it would be a topic other than "everything is horrible" I definitely think there’s quite a bit to think about in how nerd communities self-regulate. My personal shop has a great group of regulars, but we’re pretty typical in that it’s mostly white men- I’m not really sure how we’d go about the process of making our community more inclusive. It’s a shame too, since I think the easiest way to make the hobby less fertile for the right wing is simply to make it more welcoming to minority groups. WotC and GW have both done a pretty good job of increasing representation in their creative and newer products, but I think a lot of the follow up falls on gaming communities and store owners to make their areas feel safe for people who might have historically found nerd stores hostile. On the other side of the inclusiveness coin, I think there’s some discussion to be had on how to self-regulate a community. If some weirdo is being predatory towards women or grooming a minor or something it’s obviously pretty straightforward to let them know they’re not welcome and should GTFO, but there’s a huge grey area between obvious shithead behavior like that and a kid making an ill-considered joke because they don’t know any better. Recognizing when someone’s irredeemable vs just ignorant sometimes takes nuance and I’d be curious to see what people think the best practices for establishing community norms and guidelines is.
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May 22, 2019 01:07
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tallkidwithglasses posted:On a very related note, I think it would be cool to hear about community building tactics- especially because people often get into these games as a teen when they’re pretty susceptible to political extremism. I think a lot of posters currently have nice communities of people that don’t suck to play against, but it would be neat to think about how to keep communities vibrant and how to expand them- both to marginalized people and how to handle things if you end up with a wannabe Hitler youth showing up. Nessus posted:I'd be extremely interested in this too, at the very worst it would be a topic other than "everything is horrible" First kick the out-and-proud bigots* out. Can't start without that. Nazi punks gently caress off. (google "paradox of tolerance") Then continuously call out poo poo behavior every time you see it, even when it's just Steve, who is harmless, everyone knows about Steve. (google "missing stair") Yes this includes when someone calls something bad "retarded". Yes this includes when someone calls someone "gay" to insult them. Yes this includes when Creepy Caleb asks a girl to go on a date with him**. Yes this includes the joke about getting back in the kitchen. Yes this includes every minor little thing oh my god there are so many how can anyone be expected to keep track of them all. Yes this loving includes "harmless" "little" "jokes". This is the stage where the remaining bigots tell on themselves and get the boot. Because a normal person, when told "yo, we don't do that here" says "poo poo, sorry, I'll try to remember". A bigot breaks into their canned rant about freeze peach and reverse discrimination, and gets the boot. Anyone who needs a list of specific rules so they know exactly where the line is in case they're accidentally a smidgen too racist gets the boot too because a normal non-racist person doesn't have to worry about that poo poo. You now have a space capable of being inclusive. Then you're gonna have to do poo poo like hang out a rainbow flag and stuff even though that's just virtue signalling or reverse uninclusivity or whatever your band of pasty cishet dudes is complaining about this week. (It's loving not, that stuff helps a whole bunch). You're gonna run a Ladies Day, and it's gonna be run by a woman, and you're gonna be a Friendly Normal Dude who is helping out, or you're gonna stay away. You're gonna run a Queer Wednesday and you, personally, are gonna wear a rainbow t shirt while you organise it, and you're gonna smile while you do it, and on the tiny offchance that you get hit on you're not going to Gay Panic and deploy your Crying Windmill style karate, you're gonna go "my wife wouldn't like that" or something polite and loving normal. Then you're gonna have to let women, PoC, and LGBTQI people not only in the door, but into leadership roles. Now you've got an inclusive vibrant community where people of all different backgrounds trust each other not to be massive fuckheads, so if the fash show up you will definitely hear about it and you know what to do next. *Fascists, racists, sexists, homophobes, etc. ** So yeah, this one in particular? People think it's tricky. It's not tricky. People are gonna hook up, but you tell Creepy Caleb to knock it the gently caress off with the creeping. If he gives you a speech about how if a handsomer man had done the exact same thing it wouldn't have been creepy, then I guess it's on you to let him in on the uncomfortable truth about that poo poo, and if he still doesn't get it then you give his creepy rear end the boot. tallkidwithglasses posted:I definitely think there’s quite a bit to think about in how nerd communities self-regulate. My personal shop has a great group of regulars, but we’re pretty typical in that it’s mostly white men- I’m not really sure how we’d go about the process of making our community more inclusive. It’s a shame too, since I think the easiest way to make the hobby less fertile for the right wing is simply to make it more welcoming to minority groups. WotC and GW have both done a pretty good job of increasing representation in their creative and newer products, but I think a lot of the follow up falls on gaming communities and store owners to make their areas feel safe for people who might have historically found nerd stores hostile. Hang out a rainbow flag and have a Queer Games Event where you promote products by LGBTQI designers. Have a weekly ladies' day run by a woman. The problem might not be your group (you'll know if it is within seconds of suggesting either of those things), but the public perception is that the problem is with groups like yours. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:18 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 02:10
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Don’t forget to put a queer Safespace sticker in the window. They’ve been in use in my town for two decades now, slowly proliferating. But remember, you have to actually back it up.
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May 22, 2019 02:16
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One of the stores I've been frequenting lately does all that. Their staff are a mix of genders, orientations and expressions, they hang a big ol' pair of pride flags in the window, stock queer antifacist gear by a local artist and always make a big effort to be friendly to people. I seriously wish they had the set-up to run gaming events besides a tiny, cramped FNM because I've never been more comfortable in a FLGS before.
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May 22, 2019 02:21
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For a counterpoint on female miniatures, check out Bad Squiddo Games. The owner, Annie (who is on these forums and is a good, decidedly non-fash person), has found a niche in producing believable female miniatures and has done a ton to help create women-friendly spaces in wargaming. The issue of making models that read as women at the common scales is really just a matter of sculptors and companies just not doing it. From an amateur sculptor perspective, it’s mostly a matter of facial shape and some minor tweaks to hip/shoulder proportions. Once you add equipment, people generally look the same, and so avoiding sexualizing miniatures is a matter of sculptor’s effort.
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May 22, 2019 02:23
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SteelMentor posted:One of the stores I've been frequenting lately does all that. Their staff are a mix of genders, orientations and expressions, they hang a big ol' pair of pride flags in the window, stock queer antifacist gear by a local artist and always make a big effort to be friendly to people. Our shop is definitely very welcoming in a similar way and the board/RPG area has a diverse crowd, but the tabletop game zone is dudelandia. We’d definitely be welcoming to anyone who showed up, but it’s pretty noticeable that if you cross the threshold to the gaming tables it’s overwhelmingly guys. E: looking at some edits upthread I think having an explicitly inclusive hobby day might be a good move! tallkidwithglasses fucked around with this message at 02:34 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 02:31
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Loomer posted:Don’t forget to put a queer Safespace sticker in the window. They’ve been in use in my town for two decades now, slowly proliferating. But remember, you have to actually back it up. Yes, none of this poo poo works unless you're guaranteed to back it up. e: And for real, a lot of people won't trust you until this is demonstrably what you're going to do. You can't be upset with them, they're going by actual experience. Also, this poo poo isn't like a points based system. You don't get to say (or even loving imply) "We understand the criticism, but since we do a ladies' day and we have 4 black and 3 gay members and one trans flag displayed we shouldn't be judged because we allow White Power Pete, especially now we're down to 2 days a week of Sieg Heil Harold". Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:39 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 02:34
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Yes, none of this poo poo works unless you're guaranteed to back it up. Yeah I think the other discussion that goes hand in hand with establishing inclusiveness is how to self-police. I think the case of “weird thirtysomething getting really friendly with a 17 year old and counting down til her birthday” is a clear place where you yell at him to gently caress off and go away, but at least personally I’d be a little more hesitant to just totally cancel a high schooler or even college kid who regurgitates some dumb chan poo poo. Maybe I’m overthinking it and things are obvious in context.
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May 22, 2019 02:42
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Yeah I think the other discussion that goes hand in hand with establishing inclusiveness is how to self-police. I think the case of “weird thirtysomething getting really friendly with a 17 year old and counting down til her birthday” is a clear place where you yell at him to gently caress off and go away, but at least personally I’d be a little more hesitant to just totally cancel a high schooler or even college kid who regurgitates some dumb chan poo poo. Maybe I’m overthinking it and things are obvious in context. Like in the latter case the proof is when you say "Hey, that poo poo is rude, cut it out," possibly with a short explanation. If the reply is some variation on "ah hell I'm sorry, I didn't know" or a conversation, then the raw material is good. If the answer is "lol triggered?" then you get the ban running.
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May 22, 2019 02:48
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Joe Slowboat posted:I thought Lancer was explicitly a Communist semi-utopia and the corporations in thensetting were the antagonist factions? It's not quite as clear-cut as that but in large part yes, the main "focal point" faction in Lancer is an interstellar government who are rebuilding after ousting their previous fascist leaders following a disastrous Space Vietnam involving planetary genocide, and who are trying to create a post-scarcity society where people don't have to worry about things like food, shelter, medical treatment, the constant struggle for material wealth, that sort of thing. The corporations in the game all have their various flavors of These Guys Suck because there isn't really an ethical way to be an arms manufacturer but they're presented with more nuance than something like you'd see in Shadowrun because it's a little more interesting than simply having a half dozen variants of mustache-twirling villainy (though there's some of that if you want to drop onto a planet feet first and introduce a slave state to your mech-sized fist). As a game, Lancer literally namedrops radical antifascism as a good and positive thing people can work towards so it's fairly unambiguous what side the creators' politics fall on unless you're a complete moron like some of the people who've tried whining at them on twitter. The Lancer discord, though not officially run by Massif Press, has also taken great pains to keep shitheads and bigots out (and in fact has a zero tolerance policy towards anyone who wants to try and be cute about it) and the server population has a fairly healthy cross-section of LGBT+/PoC members.
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May 22, 2019 02:49
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Yeah I think the other discussion that goes hand in hand with establishing inclusiveness is how to self-police. I think the case of “weird thirtysomething getting really friendly with a 17 year old and counting down til her birthday” is a clear place where you yell at him to gently caress off and go away, but at least personally I’d be a little more hesitant to just totally cancel a high schooler or even college kid who regurgitates some dumb chan poo poo. Maybe I’m overthinking it and things are obvious in context. Things are usually obvious in context, but two things. 1) Anyone who claims to need a specific list of rules about acceptable behavior either hasn't thought it through or is intending to bounce repeatedly off the line in the fash equivalent of the "not touching you not touching you" style of bullying. 2) You need to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair Short short version: It's easy to end up in a situation where an outsider is going  and you can't figure out what's wrong because it's just a normal easily avoidable thing within your group. Unchecked, you end up in situations that should be impossibly bizarre, like forgetting to mention to the newest member of your sex-having team that Rapist Ron's a rapist and you shouldn't be alone with him. So you err on the side of telling people to knock it off. Start with the politest possible "hey this kind of thing can make others uncomfortable", you'll figure out real fast if they were repeating dumb poo poo or if they believe evil poo poo.
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May 22, 2019 03:04
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:2) You need to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair Short short version: It's easy to end up in a situation where an outsider is going This is super useful advice, thanks a ton. Honestly a lot of what I’m talking/thinking about is more hypothetical than anything but I think this is a really useful principle for communities to keep in mind.
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May 22, 2019 03:10
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Liquid Communism posted:To put picture to it, here's the new base model for the line design of the new Sisters of Battle line. Note the lack of emphasis on the breastplate, lack of stilletto heels, and lack of objectification. She looks bad rear end. That's some nice gear, bit it *is* a Battle Corset. Doesn't invalidate the rest, I just couldn't not point it out.
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May 22, 2019 03:15
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Bruceski posted:That's some nice gear, bit it *is* a Battle Corset. Doesn't invalidate the rest, I just couldn't not point it out. Sisters of Battle are kinda stuck with those as a design element, yes.
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May 22, 2019 03:18
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Bruceski posted:That's some nice gear, bit it *is* a Battle Corset. Doesn't invalidate the rest, I just couldn't not point it out. Yeah, it's not perfect, but its definitely an improvement while still sticking with their iconic look. How the new line handles the Sister Repentia model is going to be a real litmus test.
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May 22, 2019 03:20
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Yeah the club we (tkwg) and I go to is already pretty good about most of that (safe space stickers and flags, etc). We're in Seattle area so that's relatively normal thankfully. And explicitly inclusive night is a great idea though!
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May 22, 2019 03:21
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General Olloth posted:Yeah the club we (tkwg) and I go to is already pretty good about most of that (safe space stickers and flags, etc). We're in Seattle area so that's relatively normal thankfully. Yeah there’s definitely a pretty striking divide between tabletop and everyone else though, I’d like to work on that. Building inclusivity really explicitly seems like a great start, and then we should definitely really be mindful of policing bad behavior. We definitely don’t want anyone creeping on people and then getting defended.
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May 22, 2019 03:27
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Yeah there’s definitely a pretty striking divide between tabletop and everyone else though, I’d like to work on that. Building inclusivity really explicitly seems like a great start, and then we should definitely really be mindful of policing bad behavior. We definitely don’t want anyone creeping on people and then getting defended. This club and the 2 other Seattle stores I play at all have the same thing, a pretty diverse boardgame crowd and minis that are mostly white men. I have no clue what the MTG scene looks like.
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May 22, 2019 03:34
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Things are usually obvious in context, but two things. As someone who spent a year moderating RPGnet, which does have a rather extensive list of rules and guidelines for users, this is 10000% correct. Trying to nail down what constitutes acceptable behavior in a social space with a specific set of itemized rules is begging to have every dickhead in existence try to game them as hard as humanly possible. The end result is you wind up throwing them out anyway (hopefully) but then you have to answer a bunch of other peoples' questions about "why did user gasthejews1488 get banned, they didn't violate rules 1, 3, or 17 that I can see." It is vastly superior, in my opinion, to have a short and simple set of rules first and foremost of which is "don't be a bigoted rear end in a top hat, or even a garden variety rear end in a top hat to the point that you're making GBS threads the place up."
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May 22, 2019 03:34
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Kai Tave posted:As someone who spent a year moderating RPGnet, which does have a rather extensive list of rules and guidelines for users, this is 10000% correct. Trying to nail down what constitutes acceptable behavior in a social space with a specific set of itemized rules is begging to have every dickhead in existence try to game them as hard as humanly possible. The end result is you wind up throwing them out anyway (hopefully) but then you have to answer a bunch of other peoples' questions about "why did user gasthejews1488 get banned, they didn't violate rules 1, 3, or 17 that I can see." It is vastly superior, in my opinion, to have a short and simple set of rules first and foremost of which is "don't be a bigoted rear end in a top hat, or even a garden variety rear end in a top hat to the point that you're making GBS threads the place up." Hell I was a mod on a game once and I told a repeat offender, "Listen, this is our third chat, I'm not gonna give you some itemized list of specifics about you being a dickhead again." His reply was "I wish you wouldn't take me so seriously  " which told me: Yeah, this guy's doing it on purpose. Out he goes.
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May 22, 2019 03:38
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Yeah there’s definitely a pretty striking divide between tabletop and everyone else though, I’d like to work on that. Building inclusivity really explicitly seems like a great start, and then we should definitely really be mindful of policing bad behavior. We definitely don’t want anyone creeping on people and then getting defended. This sort of thing (the defending of creeps) sounds really hosed up and is sadly endemic to our hobby.
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May 22, 2019 03:39
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Geisladisk posted:Just about the easiest, zero effort and most progressive thing GW could do would be to have half the heads on their Imperial Guard and Golden Sigmars line be women and make literally no other changes to the model. Then say that Robert Guilliman found this one weird trick to let women be Space Marines and then do the same for the SM line. I agree on the female IG (then again that whole sprue could use a revamp), but disagree on the Stormcast Eternals.  The Stormcast line definitely has the molded body plate look that fantasy armor with no realistic reference tends to go for. For men it's massive muscles, something closer to a body builder or Captain America than a regular person. Putting a woman's head on an exaggerated male superhero's body wouldn't be indistinguishable, it'd be weird. What I appreciate about the GW approach with female Stormcast models is that they've made the armor feminine, but it's not sexualized or significantly different from what men wear other than it's contoured towards a feminine shape. For a fantasy-focused game I think it looks really good, and I'm thinking of taking one to convert into a lady Inquisitor or something. As others have said, GW isn't completely out of the woods with the new Sisters line but they've definitely toned it down.
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May 22, 2019 03:53
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Nessus posted:Yeah the reason social media sites don't do moderation SA-style is that it is relatively labor intensive. But guess what, you're not a massive corporation trying to get a huge valuation by paring staff costs to the bone, you're a community space and/or small-ish merchant! Businesses also run the severe risk of losing patrons if they gently caress up how they police their community, both in terms of going too hard or too soft.
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May 22, 2019 03:56
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