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Booley posted:I think this is true on both sides of the coin, with lovely people saying "but there's no rule that says I can't do that", and also community organizers hesitating to get rid of people because they can't name a specific rule that's being broken, even when everyone knows they're poo poo and unwanted. I think it may stem from people spending a lot of times in games with well defined rules and struggling to shift into a world more defined by nuance. This is why I enjoyed the inclusive community building advice from the past page or so- it’s a nice actionable way to think about building a space that’s welcoming and diverse without needing to worry about establishing a formal list of community guidelines. Just 86 the obvious predator that is driving away women from the shop, and then subsequently shame anyone who tries to defend him or close ranks, don’t tell him he’s out because he violated subsection 9 of the rules of conduct.
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May 22, 2019 15:47
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tallkidwithglasses posted:This is why I enjoyed the inclusive community building advice from the past page or so- it’s a nice actionable way to think about building a space that’s welcoming and diverse without needing to worry about establishing a formal list of community guidelines. Just 86 the obvious predator that is driving away women from the shop, and then subsequently shame anyone who tries to defend him or close ranks, don’t tell him he’s out because he violated subsection 9 of the rules of conduct. I also think that norms become self-reinforcing, for better or worse. If you look at how similar issues are handled within SA, for example, there's a natural spread of response ranging from mockery to direct call-outs to banning when people violate the norms of the different subfora. I think that once an inclusive environment is developed and you have people who actually feel it, the straight enforcement becomes much rarer - instead, people will make a "joke" and then either get laughed at or gently called out in a way that can help address the question of how do you deal with genuinely ignorant but not malintentioned people. You still need to have the actual hard enforcement ready to hit the genuine CHUDs and fishmalk types who want to gently caress with the rules, but inclusive values can become self-reinforcing. The hard part is bootstrapping that, and especially bootstrapping it when the current owners/key influencers don't buy into it.
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May 22, 2019 16:34
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Notahippie posted:The hard part is bootstrapping that, and especially bootstrapping it when the current owners/key influencers don't buy into it. Yeah, it definitely feels like the toughest nut to crack is when the people in charge are the ones doing the covering for the gross behavior- in a way it’s almost worse than if they were just predatory or chuds themselves, since there’s a layer of deniability they can swaddle themselves in. That goes back to Booleys point on how when you have a big formal list of rules you end up with both people who look to exploit them and presumable arbiters who end up not enforcing anything consistently because behavior isn’t mapping perfectly to an enforceable point- it gets a lot worse when that arbiter has malicious intent and focuses the rules on people they dislike while contorting them away from actual bad actors.
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May 22, 2019 16:44
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Yeah, it definitely feels like the toughest nut to crack is when the people in charge are the ones doing the covering for the gross behavior- in a way it’s almost worse than if they were just predatory or chuds themselves, since there’s a layer of deniability they can swaddle themselves in. I think maybe the approach is to stack the deck - either bring in a group of people who agree with you or do some back-channel discussions to get people on your side. You can start the call-out/making fun of approach to bad behavior without formal authority behind you, and that by itself can highlight bad behavior and potentially force some kind of call by the authorities. If nothing else the arguing between the diehard chuds and the people calling them out will eventually get disruptive enough that there will have to be some kind of formal call. If the people in charge make the wrong call (and they probably will if it took this much to get them engaged), it's maybe better to just try to find or make a new space.
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May 22, 2019 16:58
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Notahippie posted:I also think that norms become self-reinforcing, for better or worse. If you look at how similar issues are handled within SA, for example, there's a natural spread of response ranging from mockery to direct call-outs to banning when people violate the norms of the different subfora. I think that once an inclusive environment is developed and you have people who actually feel it, the straight enforcement becomes much rarer - instead, people will make a "joke" and then either get laughed at or gently called out in a way that can help address the question of how do you deal with genuinely ignorant but not malintentioned people. You still need to have the actual hard enforcement ready to hit the genuine CHUDs and fishmalk types who want to gently caress with the rules, but inclusive values can become self-reinforcing. When I came back into the 40K thread I made a stupid joke about Sisters of Battle, and was immediately called out on it. That's exactly the kind of culture that ensures a quality community; well established norms that are enforced and propagated by the participants. The kind of people who need specific rules about what they can and can't do are generally the type of people who probably suck to play with anyway. Traditional gaming is very much about socialization and sharing a common experience, and I think that's one of the key reasons why toxic behavior needs to be excised.
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May 22, 2019 16:58
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I joined a group for a card game I play and we were collectively complaining about how bad nerds can smell at conventions. One of the white dudes in the group chat then said he hates how brown people smell. I am brown.  "I'm sure you can handle a joke"
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May 22, 2019 20:47
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Defenistrator posted:I joined a group for a card game I play and we were collectively complaining about how bad nerds can smell at conventions. Hahah it's cool man I can say the N word because you're my friend. Anyway those OTHER browns smell. Man gently caress people. I hope you told him you can handle a joke but he's a lovely person for making the 'joke'.
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May 22, 2019 20:59
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Defenistrator posted:I joined a group for a card game I play and we were collectively complaining about how bad nerds can smell at conventions. "We'll find out as soon as you tell one."
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May 22, 2019 21:05
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Defenistrator posted:I joined a group for a card game I play and we were collectively complaining about how bad nerds can smell at conventions. That sucks and I'm sorry.
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May 22, 2019 21:28
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Defenistrator posted:I joined a group for a card game I play and we were collectively complaining about how bad nerds can smell at conventions. Time to find out if he can handle a punch.
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May 22, 2019 21:38
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ProfessorCirno posted:Time to find out if he can handle a punch. Just had a conversation with our kid about avoiding violence in conflict at school and afterwards my wife to me, with a tone of guilt, is just like "but we have nazis now". Which is like yeah, we loving do don't we.
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May 22, 2019 21:46
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Defenistrator posted:I joined a group for a card game I play and we were collectively complaining about how bad nerds can smell at conventions. This is absolutely what happens when shitheads aren't challenged. They have to just make "jokes" and "ask questions"
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May 22, 2019 21:54
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Harvey Mantaco posted:Just had a conversation with our kid about avoiding violence in conflict at school and afterwards my wife to me, with a tone of guilt, is just like "but we have nazis now". Children need clear and consistent boundaries. That conflict should never be resolved with violence except in certain edge cases is just confusing for a young child. Don't worry, by the time your kid develops the upper body strength to throw a good punch, they will have matured enough to understand nuance and exceptions.
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May 22, 2019 23:57
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Geisladisk posted:Children need clear and consistent boundaries. That conflict should never be resolved with violence except in certain edge cases is just confusing for a young child.
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May 23, 2019 00:02
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As another source of mostly memes and news about nonfascist Warhammer, there is r/sigmarxism. A lot of it is Chapo trap house in jokes and there are some non-ironic stalinists, but the think pieces are usually good
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May 23, 2019 00:53
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muggins posted:As another source of mostly memes and news about nonfascist Warhammer, there is r/sigmarxism. A lot of it is Chapo trap house in jokes and there are some non-ironic stalinists, but the think pieces are usually good I ran across a podcast with this name on Instagram - are these the same folks?
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May 23, 2019 00:56
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Nessus posted:Indeed, one must master the basics before you can become a master (of punching Hitlers) Start with a milkshake. Less potential damage to the hand.
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May 23, 2019 00:58
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Deified Data posted:I ran across a podcast with this name on Instagram - are these the same folks? Yea I believe so, I haven't listened to the pod
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May 23, 2019 03:51
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Things are usually obvious in context, but two things.
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May 23, 2019 11:59
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and you can't figure out what's wrong because it's just a normal easily avoidable thing within your group. Unchecked, you end up in situations that should be impossibly bizarre, like forgetting to mention to the newest member of your sex-having team that Rapist Ron's a rapist and you shouldn't be alone with him.
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Geisladisk posted:Children need clear and consistent boundaries. That conflict should never be resolved with violence except in certain edge cases is just confusing for a young child. Thanks but to clarify didn't advise my kid to start brickin' fash by the jungle gym
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May 23, 2019 12:49
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MadScientistWorking posted:Number 2 is very hard to keep in check though given that very often outside of overt stuff like facism and sexism it's hard to spot missing chairs. For sure it is! But one of the strengths of a genuinely diverse environment is that someone's likely to spot it. I have no good advice about how to figure this stuff out if you don't already have a diverse group, except that you can probably use "assholes" as a blanket term for people to be looking out for. So at random times, ask yourself: Would an outsider think someone was being an rear end in a top hat right now? If it helps, pretend that video is being taken and it's just been posted to youtube with the heading "local rear end in a top hat displays usual rear end in a top hat behavior at nerdgame meetup, christ what an rear end in a top hat". Could an outsider tell you who that's referring to? Let's say you decide that yeah, yeah they could. Could you explain to the outsider why this person is not actually an rear end in a top hat, in a way that sounds plausible and doesn't make you feel awkward*? If so, could you still explain it if the outsider were gay? (Muslim, a woman, in a wheelchair, a little person, autistic, etc), or would it make you feel awkward? Or maybe it's no longer plausible? Awkward? Implausible? Both? You might have found a missing stair. e: A bunch of the difficulty here is going to be in confronting yourself over the thing you're definitely going to do, more than once where you write some rear end in a top hat's bullshit off as not that bad or not important or not worth worrying about because you don't like feeling awkward. Or because you've noticed that it's you, you're the rear end in a top hat, and that's an extremely uncomfortable thing to come to terms with. *We're all nerds here so for clarity I mean more awkward than usual. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 13:06 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 12:52
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Geisladisk posted:The problem is that toy soldiers are, like so much else in culture, male by default. If there are no explicit and highly visible indications that the model is female, it is assumed to be male. And because it is very difficult to indicate that a soldier in bulky armor is female, we end up with poo poo like boobplate, and the expectation that female models be extremely exaggerated in their proportions. Even the newer female Sigmars are wearing boobplate and have giant hips and thighs. I know this is a couple pages back but I felt like I wanted to add a counterpoint to the idea that female minis should have a realistic silhouette. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinion regarding it but I wanted to provide mine as a female gamer: I actually like the more exaggerated, blatantly feminine models, boobplate and all. I'm not playing games for realism. For one example my DnD characters, even ones in plate armor, kick major rear end while being total babes and that's awesome. Why let practical poo poo get in the way in a fantasy world? The mini in the quote is frickin' awesome! Again, not saying people advocating for realistic silhouettes are wrong, but it's not for me and I'd feel even less catered-to by the tradgames industry if the "most progressive" option became predominant. Resting Lich Face fucked around with this message at 16:08 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 16:01
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With these awful guys getting bolder and louder, has anyone seen FATAL apologists? It's been ages since I thought about that game, but it just occurred to me that in this more openly hostile climate, it might start attracting an audience.
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May 23, 2019 16:06
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I'd be more surprised if there weren't FATAL apologists these days.
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May 23, 2019 16:07
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The issue I tend to have (as a male, ugh) is more about the pose and the attitude of the mini, card, drawing or whatever, rather than what they are wearing. Hell even heels can be badass in the right context. Like the rogue trader lady in the rogue trader box set. Years and years ago when I was learning to draw comics, another artist said to me, imagine superman or batman in whatever pose I was drawing. If it looks stupid on them then you probably shouldn't draw it that way.
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May 23, 2019 16:10
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I hadn't thought about posing but looking at my repository of images and the few minis I still have I do seem to select out the stupid poses because I know exactly what you mean but I don't find it in my stuff.
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May 23, 2019 16:16
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Resting Lich Face posted:I know this is a couple pages back but I felt like I wanted to add a counterpoint to the idea that female minis should have a realistic silhouette. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinion regarding it but I wanted to provide mine as a female gamer: I actually like the more exaggerated, blatantly feminine models, boobplate and all. I'm not playing games for realism. For one example my DnD characters, even ones in plate armor, kick major rear end while being total babes and that's awesome. Why let practical poo poo get in the way in a fantasy world? The mini in the quote is frickin' awesome! I think this is an important thing that gets missed in the normal "groups of dudes talking about Fixing Sexism" discussion.
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May 23, 2019 16:19
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My personal metric is "Would this character dress herself this way?" and I feel like that's been a good barometer. Another thing to watch is pose, as previously mentioned. Privateer suffers some lingerie-armored wercasters, but they're all complete badasses (on paper, if not practice) and project power in their depiction.
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May 23, 2019 16:21
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moths posted:My personal metric is "Would this character dress herself this way?" and I feel like that's been a good barometer. The one thing you can trip over here are the legions of dudes going "no it's okay she does it because it's EMPOWERING" to justify their boners
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May 23, 2019 16:30
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Infinity miniatures on the other hand can be both fairly covered up and yikesy as hell.
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May 23, 2019 16:30
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Mors Rattus posted:The one thing you can trip over here are the legions of dudes going "no it's okay she does it because it's EMPOWERING" to justify their boners If you have to justify it, then it's probably not empowering.
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May 23, 2019 16:31
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BoneMonkey posted:Infinity miniatures on the other hand can be both fairly covered up and yikesy as hell. Oh they do that high-heeled boot thing  . Kind of a pet peeve of mine I guess.I really really like that Angharad mini though. Even the boobplate is practical with the flares that'd actually let it deflect blows outward rather than just get her stabbed in the lower torso; it hits the sweet spot of fantasy but reasonable (bonus points for a helmet too - even though I usually omit them myself). I want it and I don't even play Warhammer because I'm not independently wealthy. More minis like that please. Might see if I can find a painted one on ebay or something. Resting Lich Face fucked around with this message at 16:49 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 16:35
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My litmus test for female models is pretty much “can I walk into a store full of strangers and not drop dead of shame if I pulled this out to play a game with.” I think boobplate like the sister of battle posted earlier meets that test, but a lot of infinity and quite a bit of warmahordes stuff doesn’t quite get there.
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May 23, 2019 17:39
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tallkidwithglasses posted:My litmus test for female models is pretty much “can I walk into a store full of strangers and not drop dead of shame if I pulled this out to play a game with.”  tallkidwithglasses posted:I think boobplate like the sister of battle posted earlier meets that test, but a lot of infinity and quite a bit of warmahordes stuff doesn’t quite get there. 
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May 23, 2019 18:04
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Resting Lich Face posted:I know this is a couple pages back but I felt like I wanted to add a counterpoint to the idea that female minis should have a realistic silhouette. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinion regarding it but I wanted to provide mine as a female gamer: I actually like the more exaggerated, blatantly feminine models, boobplate and all. I'm not playing games for realism. For one example my DnD characters, even ones in plate armor, kick major rear end while being total babes and that's awesome. Why let practical poo poo get in the way in a fantasy world? The mini in the quote is frickin' awesome! Yeah, I agree, the lady sigmars are actually a bad example and they're really good models. I'l revise and say that exaggerated anatomy, boob-plate and the like are only bad if the female models are stylistically inconsistent with their male counterparts. The male sigmars have the same kind of exaggerated hyper-masculine anatomy and form-fitting platemail. My point was more about models that do not have these features; A female imperial guard would just be a headswap. Same with Space Marines. Likewise, if the male sigmars were wearing realistic, functional plate mail, female sigmars would, again, simply be a headswap. It's galling where the men are no-nonsense and practical, while the women are dolled up. Infinity is, for instance, a repeat offender. Frequently you see troops where the men are bulky, wearing practical, no-nonsense combat gear, while the women are wearing heels with bare midriffs and poo poo, while they have the anatomy of a runway model. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 18:11 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 18:05
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Geisladisk posted:Yeah, I agree, the lady sigmars are actually a bad example and they're really good models. Exactly. I'm only comfortable with bikini chainmail if it's accompanied by chainmail banana hammocks.
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May 23, 2019 18:10
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Exactly. I'm only comfortable with bikini chainmail if it's accompanied by chainmail banana hammocks. How I build my Emperor's Children army is my business!
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May 23, 2019 19:00
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Exactly. I'm only comfortable with bikini chainmail if it's accompanied by chainmail banana hammocks. Can you give an example of a pair of armored bikini/thong models you’re comfortable with? Most of the “chainmail banana hammock” stuff I see is extremely homophobic, and not only helps rationalize sexist female minis, it perpetuates the extremely prevalent pattern in nerd hobbies of turning items associated with gay culture into a joke. Or, are you just using “chainmail [underpants]” as a jokey shorthand for “largely nude fantasy warriors”?
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May 23, 2019 19:32
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I'm not sure he was entirely serious. Who doesn't love a ridiculously jacked and inexplicably waxed barbarian warrior with booty shorts tho?
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May 23, 2019 19:34
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Resting Lich Face posted:I'm not sure he was entirely serious. [Some] gay men who hear the snickering and know the “love” is, at least in many instances, a joke at their expense? Beer’s avatar might be a completely sincere statement of personal sexual orientation, I don’t know them well, but the fact remains that a lot of beefcake stuff in this hobby is making light of sexual attraction to men, not attempting in good faith to even the playing field for women. But maybe they were talking about, eg, the Darkoath stuff or Arena Rex models, which are extremely cool and meant to evoke cultural touchstones like gladiators and Conan the Barbarian that, while sometimes appreciated because of their sexualization, unquestionably aren’t homophobic in design or general appeal. EDIT: re Angharad specifically, my brother plays her Warband all the time and repeatedly forgets she’s female, which is a pretty good test imho. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 19:59 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 19:54
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