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Dr. Girlfriend is frustrating because she’s written as this tough, brilliant, capable super-villain but soooooo many of her scenes and dialogue are couched in her looks and sexuality and how hot she is and how everyone wants to do her. Like her role in the show is to clean up messes and to be fought and fawned over and in recent seasons to just get lied to by her husband over and over. I’m not saying she never gets to do anything but I could really go for a Bechdel test episode where D.MtM goes and does some cool poo poo and the ventures or the Monarch never come up or are shown.
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May 23, 2019 12:38
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Babe Magnet posted:the "two heads are better than one!" exchange is my favorite in the whole show, I think, and I don't know if I could tell you why, but it is It is a fantastic exchange. I wish more people watched the show to get it.
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May 23, 2019 13:02
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Bust Rodd posted:Dr. Girlfriend is frustrating because she’s written as this tough, brilliant, capable super-villain but soooooo many of her scenes and dialogue are couched in her looks and sexuality and how hot she is and how everyone wants to do her. Also it's hard to take her seriously from a representation standpoint because of the whole voice thing. Like I don't know exactly what kind of joke they had in mind with that at the get-go, but it was certainly meant to be SOME kind of joke.
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May 23, 2019 13:41
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It’s clearly a holdover from what they thought their show was going to be before it became what it did.
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May 23, 2019 15:26
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I think the joke was "give a hot girl a man's voice and never explain it." No need to complicate it.
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May 23, 2019 15:41
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Data Graham posted:Also it's hard to take her seriously from a representation standpoint because of the whole voice thing. Like I don't know exactly what kind of joke they had in mind with that at the get-go, but it was certainly meant to be SOME kind of joke. iirc since neither of them could do a convincing female voice (and they couldn't hire any female voice actors to be regulars) they just leaned into it real hard and gave her a deep, gravely voice
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May 23, 2019 15:48
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I was gonna say you do realize that this show like only started with like them voicing nearly everyone except Monarch and Brock right? They didn’t had money to hire multiple voice actors. In fact the only one who ever implied that was Brock. And last time I checked he got shot point blank with a dart gun by Limb for that. No one else ever questioned if she was female apart from Brock so yeah no I don’t think they were going for that type of joke. Like yeah some of the season one jokes don’t mesh well but I strongly believe that Dr Girlfriend wasn’t made for that type of joke. Shindragon fucked around with this message at 16:03 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 15:58
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I don't personally mind the fact that Dr. Mrs. the Monarch is a beautiful woman who is fawned over by everybody and objectified by those people on a consistent basis because within the narrative of the show, she's aware of this attention and treatment, and she has used it to her advantage in the same way that Brock uses his superior strength as an advantage. In the last season, she even explicitly used the sexism she faces every day to completely demolish two henchmen while villainsplaining to them not only how they are totally unaware of just how sexist they are, but how she's exploiting that sexism at that very moment to beat them up. She hasn't gotten to where she is by being sexy, which I would have a problem with. She's gotten to where she is by being a hyper-competent, villainous badass. She could have remained doing the Queen Etheria bit and ridden Phantom Limb's coattails to success, but that life annoyed her because her skills werne't being used, and at the first opportunity, she ran off with a guy who she was both romantically and professionally compatible with. That decision made her into the character we see in the show now. To me, the fact that everyone is constantly fawning over and underestimating her because of her looks shows the faults in the characters who treat her this way, not in the way her character is written. No matter how much she proves her worth, many other characters are sexist toward her in one way or another, and that's really just art imitating life. Ask literally any woman; this is how they get treated on a daily basis, especially in the workplace. To Doc's and Jackson's credit, they constantly have her subvert the usual tropes of such sexy cartoon women. (Well, not all of them, I guess, but quite a few of the more annoying ones.) All of that said, Dr. Mrs. the Monarch is a notable exception on this show. There are few other regular characters who are female; oddly, there are many more gay men who are main characters than women of any persuasion. I'd like to see more women on the show in important roles. But, we are talking about a Jonny Quest satire/deconstruction, and a deconstruction of jet-age pulp in general. At its core, the basal material is rooted in male-centric tropes and clichés, and breaking out of that completely while maintaining the current Ventureverse would not be easy.
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May 23, 2019 16:04
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it isn't just dr. mrs. the monarch though, other lore-adjacent female characters have been less than great - myra, dr. quymn, ginnie, the entire concept of molotov cocktease it's just a very dudely show. i think some of that is because of the source material, some of it is because of production limitations, some of it is because doc and JP have themselves matured along with society in some of their opinions and attitudes over the 16 years the show has been in production. so these criticisms of the show having poor representation of women are valid, but i don't think that this poor representation is coming from a misogynist perspective. it's more clueless than exclusionary e: the last couple seasons have been much better though, there are more non-objectified female characters who are more than just a joke, and Dr.MtM has her own separate struggles to deal with independently of her husband Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 16:25 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 16:22
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While Dr. MtM is a sex object, she's also usually the most knowledgeable and most competent when everyone else is a complete buffoon.
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May 23, 2019 16:31
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I also really was put off by finally just having her be topless in the last season. Felt way, way too fan-fictiony and didn’t really add anything to the show, but added a lot to deviant art
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May 23, 2019 16:37
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Bust Rodd posted:I also really was put off by finally just having her be topless in the last season. Felt way, way too fan-fictiony and didn’t really add anything to the show, but added a lot to deviant art Does it matter that within the show, we come to find out that it isn't actually her? I'm genuinely curious to hear your take on that. Either way, I didn't have much of an issue with it, because her character is very sex-positive, to the point that she and Monarch are open swingers, and a character who is both a high-ranking supervillain bureaucrat who has experience in doing recon and someone who doesn't share most of our American society's sexual mores... well, I didn't see it as particularly out-of-character for her to go almost nude to an Illuminati bacchanal. Then again, I did just now get the Blu-Ray of Season 7. Still in shrinkwrap. So I don't know just how objectified she was without the censorship. (And let's not pretend that there wasn't already a lot of nude Dr. Mrs. the Monarch art out there.)
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May 23, 2019 16:57
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there was already the nip slip when she was sent to
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May 23, 2019 17:16
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Wait when do we find out it’s not her at the Orgy? I binged the season in 2 sittings and could have easily missed a throwaway line.
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May 23, 2019 17:25
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Bust Rodd posted:Wait when do we find out it’s not her at the Orgy? I binged the season in 2 sittings and could have easily missed a throwaway line. When it turns out it was all just a VR simulation.
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May 23, 2019 17:26
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It's hard to use in-universe justifications for objectification without edging into "well actually she breathes through her skin" territory. The show has gotten better about its female characters but "better" is a relative term. I tried introducing my girlfriend to the show and she turned to me at one point and said "this is such a show for dudes." I think it was when Orpheus casts a sleep spell on his daughter and she crumples sexily to the floor. (On the other hand she loved Mol and laughed harder at the babysitting episode than anything else.)
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May 23, 2019 17:27
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Data Graham posted:Also it's hard to take her seriously from a representation standpoint because of the whole voice thing. Like I don't know exactly what kind of joke they had in mind with that at the get-go, but it was certainly meant to be SOME kind of joke.
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May 23, 2019 17:27
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Bust Rodd posted:Wait when do we find out it’s not her at the Orgy? I binged the season in 2 sittings and could have easily missed a throwaway line. It's in the stinger at the end past the credits. You should always stick around post credits and pay attention.
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May 23, 2019 17:34
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Bust Rodd posted:Wait when do we find out it’s not her at the Orgy? I binged the season in 2 sittings and could have easily missed a throwaway line. the entire eyes wide shut orgy was a virtual reality interrogation chamber by the OSI. from the moment rusty enters the room where he gets a stern talking to over video con, that is when he is secretly strapped into a VR headset and robotic masturbator. so the entire illuminati angle is just OSI mind fuckery of course, the framing device doesn't matter. even though the naked sheila is some kind of manifestation of rusty's unrequited lust, there was still a decision made by doc and jackson to show naked orgy sheila in the first place, and even put the camera behind her rear end
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May 23, 2019 17:38
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Shindragon posted:I was gonna say you do realize that this show like only started with like them voicing nearly everyone except Monarch and Brock right? They didn’t had money to hire multiple voice actors. In fact the only one who ever implied that was Brock. And last time I checked he got shot point blank with a dart gun by Limb for that. No one else ever questioned if she was female apart from Brock so yeah no I don’t think they were going for that type of joke. Monarch is voiced by Jackson. He and shiela or gary are just another paring of Doc and Jackson. Dean has always been voiced by Chris Sinterniiklaus (sp), Brock by Patrick Warburton, and Rusty by James Urbaniak. Urbaniak also does Phantom Limb and David Bowie. Triana is voiced by Doc's ex wife Lisa Hammer. That's basically the entire cast.
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May 23, 2019 17:42
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Yeah I know. That was my point to someone else implying a bad joke with Dr Girlfriend when this show had a small cast and barely had a budget. I mean come on they even stated they used half the budget on a 30 second song in the 2nd season.
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May 23, 2019 18:42
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Shindragon posted:Yeah I know. That was my point to someone else implying a bad joke with Dr Girlfriend when this show had a small cast and barely had a budget. I mean come on they even stated they used half the budget on a 30 second song in the 2nd season. Yeah but it’s one of the funniest sequences in animation ever so like that was worth it.
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May 23, 2019 18:45
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Oh yeah totally. Me and my friend anytime we watch season 2 we always pick the first episode . Plus the brothers death montage.
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May 23, 2019 18:48
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Shindragon posted:Yeah I know. That was my point to someone else implying a bad joke with Dr Girlfriend when this show had a small cast and barely had a budget. I mean come on they even stated they used half the budget on a 30 second song in the 2nd season. i can't even imagine that sequence without that song. it's perfect. it's brilliant. That and Like A Friend. That might be changeable, but gosh, that sequence, too.
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May 23, 2019 18:54
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The "Everybody's Free" sequence was synced up to the music, but the lyrics only kind-of sort-of have anything to do with the events on the screen. Thematically it fits, and the overall effect is great. And, when we finally get to Doc living it up at a rave somewhere, the music is part of the scene and fits perfectly within context. It was great. But when that last chorus of "Like a Friend" starts as Brock is sprinting to the hangar, it perfectly describes the Ventures' (and perhaps mainly Doc's) relationship with Brock. They're the last drink he never should have drunk, they're the body hidden in the trunk, they're the habit he can't seem to kick, etc. The action builds, and the metaphors in the song also build, and we get to the final stanza when the Blackhearts start mutating and it's just perfect: "Like a car crash I can see but I just can't avoid / Like a plane I've been told I never should board / Like a film that's so bad but I gotta stay till the end / Let me tell you now, it's lucky for you that we're friends," and on the last line he charges in with his knife, ready to join the fight. Because of course he's ready to join the fight to save the Ventures. Whether he wants to admit it or not, he loves this relationship on a certain level.
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May 23, 2019 19:05
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Imagine Sheila voiced by Shoreh Aghdashloo.
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May 23, 2019 19:42
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Kesper North posted:Imagine Sheila voiced by Shoreh Aghdashloo. tiffany haddish
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May 23, 2019 20:39
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Kesper North posted:Imagine Sheila voiced by Shoreh Aghdashloo. luxury handset posted:tiffany haddish Bea Arthur
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May 23, 2019 20:52
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Baba Oje?!
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May 23, 2019 21:05
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Most of the female characters in the show have been used to highly how dysfunctional, gross and inept the Venture men are around women, so I think it's pretty in lining with the themes.
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May 23, 2019 23:01
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TK-42-1 posted:that whole scene screams doc to me. like it’s just pure refined hammer Bust Rodd posted:I love Venture Bros and think it’s maybe at the pinnacle of what cartoons can be and mean to people but I have to assume that Doc Hammer and Jackson Public are insufferable reference monkeys to hang out with and probably can only tolerate//be tolerated by each other. tarlibone posted:All of that said, Dr. Mrs. the Monarch is a notable exception on this show. There are few other regular characters who are female; oddly, there are many more gay men who are main characters than women of any persuasion. Bust Rodd posted:Not to sound like a pain, but something that gets progressively harder and harder to ignore on subsequent rewatches is that Venture Bros. is a great show but has the absolute bare minimum of female characters and characterization.
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May 23, 2019 23:57
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I'm just going to restate my theory that Scare Bear is Teddy. It just, has to be, right?
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May 24, 2019 00:09
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Jared is most likely and he even has a, uhh, web stain on his scarebear costume, but it'd be pretty funny if it was now-free ted.
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May 24, 2019 00:16
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I hope next season has a loooot more of the Order of the Triad
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May 24, 2019 00:20
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I was giddy when they showed up and the long joke finally pays off. I hope action man ain’t dead tho.
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May 24, 2019 01:26
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Shindragon posted:I was giddy when they showed up and the long joke finally pays off. I hope action man ain’t dead tho. old team venture just immediately dealing with the weird poo poo happening is so loving funny. oh he made this monstrosity? let’s use it to take rodney to the hospital. without any hesitation at all
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May 24, 2019 03:19
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TK-42-1 posted:Wait what?
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May 24, 2019 07:01
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luxury handset posted:iirc since neither of them could do a convincing female voice (and they couldn't hire any female voice actors to be regulars) they just leaned into it real hard and gave her a deep, gravely voice Also, one of the best Monarch character lines is an overlooked one when he sees Dr.MtM (then still Dr. Girlfriend) smoking at Sgt. Hatred's party and never connected her voice to her smoking habit. He really just loves the woman and doesn't even *notice* the voice - he just cares that smoking's bad for her.
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May 24, 2019 07:50
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LividLiquid posted:Doc voices Billy, who's modeled after Hammer, and vice/versa. Doc's even an albino of sorts. That white streak isn't dyed. Yeah, I'm not too familiar with their appearances but I'm pretty sure they're meant to be exaggerated caricatures of each other. Funny thing is that Pete is kinda considered a villain because of his dubious morals and selfishness and cowardice being only better than Doc due to lack of the same opportunities, while Billy has the heart of a hero (so to speak) and is a huge fan of super-science heroics even though he's seen the ugly side up close so many times, but if you went by appearance, Billy seems tailor-made to be a classic villain; multiple deformities, eye patch, cyborg arm, speech impediment... he even used to be a villain's henchman (briefly) and is sometimes still technically considered one. (especially since he's the go-to assistant for the even more morally dubious Rusty). I suppose it goes with the idea that Rusty Venture is perfectly set up to be a supervillain, that Billy is in the perfect position to be his Igor. That said, I think a lot of what goes on with Rusty is meant to indicate that when it comes to super-scientists in particular, the line between hero and villain is very arbitrary. Much like how Batman and Lex Luthor have more in common with each other than almost anyone else in their world.
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May 24, 2019 09:40
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Venture Bros. also does the Warren Ellis/Garth Ennis thing of “super heroes are deeply flawed creepshow assholes” and so much of the show is them attacking each other without any villainy (or even crimes for that matter, taking place). For Christ’s sake, remember *click* “Not Today, Rusty...”
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May 24, 2019 12:44
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